To all who want video - from Vincent Laforet

On the other hand - if you all you want is to shoot your kid scream "Happy birthday Grandma!" into the camera - then you shouldn't worry about the notes above and just shoot video.
Which is exactly all I want, or expect, from video in a DSLR. Nothing wrong with that at all, is there??
James, would the above purpose, not be efficiently served with a pocketable camcorder than trying to shoot such scenes with a klunky dSLR that is not optimized to shooting such scenes ? LOL.
Not for me, I'm already carrying enough gear in the field. Do not want to add a camcorder into the mix. Besides, I'm already using that Klunky DSLR so what's the big deal there??

And Klunky does not even begin to describe chasing a bear up the side of a ridge in the woods will carrying a 800/5.6 lens on that DSLR, LOL!!

Every available dime I have goes into my camera gear because that's what important to me. I already know when I upgrade my 5D it will be to a 5D MKII so why pay extra for a camcorder?

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Long live the HMS Beagle
Critiques always welcome!
 
for longevity and sheer breadth and depth of "digital' expertise.
PS: As a former Full-frame Canon shooter, I picked Sony as the long-term 'system' I decided to go with and till date there is not even an iota of regret with that decision. The 4 Full-frame Carl Zeiss lenses that I use with the A900, are without parallel, anywhere in dSLRdom.....
Sure there is, I shot 6 different Carl Zeiss primes on my Canon FF. Not to mention the Leica R, Oly, Pentax, and even a Mamiya 645 200/2.8 APO. Now if you said AF you'd be closer to being correct but even there it's possible to get old Contax Zeiss N AF lenses adapted to work on EOS bodies also.

Still, Sony is the easiest solution to getting AF Zeiss glass.

--
Long live the HMS Beagle
Critiques always welcome!
 
Not for me, I'm already carrying enough gear in the field. Do not want to add a camcorder into the mix. Besides, I'm already using that Klunky DSLR so what's the big deal there??
"Klunky" to shoot video....not stills. The dSLRs are optimized for stills while the camcorders are optimized for video. Either one is a compromise when it comes to shooting things that they are not designed for.
 
Not for me, I'm already carrying enough gear in the field. Do not want to add a camcorder into the mix. Besides, I'm already using that Klunky DSLR so what's the big deal there??
"Klunky" to shoot video....not stills. The dSLRs are optimized for stills while the camcorders are optimized for video. Either one is a compromise when it comes to shooting things that they are not designed for.
No, I understood, I just don't see it as being "Klunky" for my limited use. For me it's the "bee's knees"!!

--
Long live the HMS Beagle
Critiques always welcome!
 
Still, Sony is the easiest solution to getting AF Zeiss glass.
Yes, Zeiss glass with AF is what I meant. ;)
I figured as such but just wanted to point out that there are alternatives. And for the most part they are cheap nowdays!

I paid $600 for the 100/2.0 and that was the expensive one. I think the other 5 primes were $250 or under each.

The real steal was must first Leica R buy. For $300 I got a 90/2.8 and a 135/2.8. Both came with built in hoods also. Quite the steal for the IQ they deliver.

--
Long live the HMS Beagle
Critiques always welcome!
 
Do you think costly (20k+) dedicated video cameras don't need costly additional equipment also?
They need the same kind of things.

The only point here is that these new video DSLRs are in the same league as those professional video cameras and after watching Laforet's short, someone saying get a similarly priced dedicated camcorder (that of course wouldn't produce the video quality of the short) would be in the league of idiots.
Okay I bite: Yes, very impressive movie.

BUT:

Do not give credits to the camera only, but watch the whole credits at the movie's end and you may guess (as much as I guess here) that the total staff (Chapeaux! Well done BTW), accessories gear like rigs etc. and production and post-production costs of this short cut by far exceed the cost to acquire one of the video capable top HD-DSLRs.

Really: Watch the end credits closely!

And that is the point of the OP in this thread which has evolved into yet another video - non-video - marketing - Sony is doomed - thread.... the only purpose these threads seem to serve lately is to populate "ignore user" lists .....

RANT mode off.
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Ralf



http://ralfralph.smugmug.com/
10.000 slides still to scan........
 
Good information. Thanks.

This topic has certainly hit some nerves, not exactly sure why. When video was introduced into P&S cameras, was there such an upheaval? I guess I can search the forum archive to find out but I don't care enough about this topic to do it. When it comes, it comes. If it never comes to Sony, no big deal.

If I know I will probably shoot some videos clips at a party, I just bring my Canon Powershot SD1100. This thing is the size of a deck of cards, fits into my pants pocket and it was only about US $120. iPhone (or comparable smart phones) probably will eventually be the market leader for shooting crappy home videos. These phones also makes the sharing over the net (e.g. facebook) easier. Videos from these phones are pretty decent for web viewing and they will be something in people's pockets anyways. P&S will eventually be replaced by these smart phones, but that's another thread.

So it's nature for people to think the video on dslr must be for purposes other than home videos. Why else would anyone need HD resolution videos that other dslr are touting? It takes forever to upload these clips onto youtube or facebook. The only feasible way to share these clips would have to be via DVDs. If I am sharing any videos by DVDs, it must be for some special occasions like wedding, graduations, etc. For these special occasions, there are usually professionals who have professional tools who can actually make videos that are NOT excruciating to watch (because the videos are not shaky, come with good sound tracks, good interviews, etc).

I can only think that it's hitting nerves because people think this video is a matter of life and death to the alpha mount. Sony obviously thinks (correctly or incorrectly) that it's not a life and death feature so it's taking its time. Will Sony lose revenue in the meantime or market share? Not so obvious as some people actually prefer a photographic machine without the video mode. Not sure how marketing decisions are made in Sony or what kind of research they have done to support their decisions.

Ultimately, three outcomes are possible: If Sony survives this "political" upheaval, I get support from Sony for a few more years. If not, some other company can take over the alpha mount and that's fine by me. If the alpha mount dies, too bad, but my camera turns antique and collectible.

Lastly, I don't have tens of thousands of dollars invested in the alpha mount lens and accessories, so it's easier for me to say this. For those who have, the money are all sunk cost anyway.
 
Simple, prove that sales are video related. Never once have you addressed that.
Well, look at this way: Sony increased shares and became 3rd during 2006 to 2008, but in 2009 Sony is on the bottom everywhere. Why did that happen in 2009? Let’s think logically. 99% of general public who go to Best Buy don't ask whether the camera has DOF preview and DMF. They don't even understand what that means. A couple of years ago, DSLRs were so expensive that only a few enthusiasts bought these cameras. That's not the case now. Everyone is buying DSLRs. They are cheap. Some models are even cheaper than p&s (for example A230 is cheaper than Canon G11).
I spent two months this year all over the west on a photographic foray, often in crowds of people with cameras taking photos. Video cameras were rare and those that used them clearly preferred the tiny ones, DSLRs were rare, People shooting video with P&S or DSLRs with it were virtually non-existant. People were shooting still photography. Now you want to claim they ignored the still photography abilities of the cameras they were buying and based their choice on video!!!! So they could go out and do still photography!!!! Whatever drugs you are on have warped your thinking.

The folks out there were highly impressed with what I was shooting with, I let a lot of them see the photos or look through the OVF as they were interested. BTW none of them had any trouble looking through the OVF or looked for the LV. DSLR folks and I compared notes on shooting things. And compared equipment. They were quite impressed with what I had to shoot with. They were interested in still photography. I spent a whole afternoon shooting side by side with a user of a D300 and the Sigma 50-500. While I shot with the a700 and 70-400G. We compared photos, discussed techniques for the still photography we were doing. Our methods differed, but the actual photos were of similar quality. And video never once came up.

As far as Sony sales this year, a few stats from a few US stores does not tell very much. Especially as they are marginal to camera sales and are hardly worldwide. No matter what the sales levels you are assuming all choices were based on video. And that people know nothing about still photography even though that's what the majority are going to do with their camera. They most certainly checked out the still photography of the camera before buying, and almost certainly choose on that. I got lots of detailed questions about the a700, questions about things you say they know nothing about. There were both DSLR and P&S folks asking those questions. They are a lot smarter than you, which does not take much.
Now you can claim that you, as a self-proclaimed “guru” and enthusiast, don’t want video. You are only interested in still photography. That’s fine, don’t use video then, but there is no evidence that including video and lv make the camera worse for still photography.
Sony's fast LV resulted in a degraded OVF. Limited to mirrors only. That is worse than a quality pentaprism like in the a700, a850 or a900. It's easy to find where these things change camera designs.

I have never claimed to be a "guru" though some others have called me that. I'm a very experienced SLR/DSLR photographer. Which is worth nothing in this group.

Speaking of self proclaimed gurus, just where do you get off claiming to be a guru on what people know or are interested in? Or what sales figures mean? You have made it abundantly clear you know nothing.
The proof is Canon 7d, Nikon D300s, and Pentax K7 -- all three models are better than A700. All have more features for still photography than A700, but yet they offer video. Why should Sony unnecessarily harms it’s sales by excluding LV and video in it’s camera? That’s idiotic and harmful to Sony and more costly to A-mount users, as I explained already: If Sony is losing sales; they will try to make it up by increasing prices for lenses or by other means harmful to A-mount users. So it costs more to have no video, and it has nothing positive in return. No video doesn't make a camera better as K7, 7D, D300s are still better than A700 but offer video.
You have never in any form proved that Sony is loosing sales due to video. You have, in fact avoided providing proof you most certainly don't have. Do you have any proof of what percentage of the sales of 7d D300s or K7 are due to the video? All you have is your personal warped daydream.

Walt
 
Professionals are not the target audience for video in a DSLR.

I am by no means saying that professionals have no use for video, but clearly it is not meant to be a substitute for a professional camera.

Video is a selling point for consumers. Consider the following "average consumer":

I would like video in my DSLR, and I am not a pro. I am not going to use it at parties or for YouTube videos; I am going to use it for my family. I want to video my dogs doing doglike things, my kids' first steps, my kids' soccer games, my kids' graduation, my kids' birthdays,my wife's dance recital, etc.

People like me want a solution for pictures, and a solution for video. I could get two cameras, but even if I like Sony, why would I buy a Sony Alpha camera and a Sony HD video camera, spending $1k on each, when I could buy another brand (arguably more popular) of DSLR that has HD video in it for $1k total?

hypothetical average consumer off

Note that the average consumer is not going to understand the limitations on current HD video from DSLRs. Even if they do, they might not care if they think they can avoid buying a $1000 video camera.

Perhaps most importantly, they're not paying much extra for the DSLR with video - what's to lose? If they end up not liking the videos from their DSLR, then they buy a video camera and they're no worse off than they would have been going with Sony in the first place. If they like the video their DSLR produces, they save $1,000.

I'm not upset that Sony is leaving video out. I understand their reasoning, and I respect that. I think they're going to lose market share because of their decision, but maybe the slow economic times will prevent them from losing too much ground.

Personally, I'm stuck in the situation where I want to upgrade my A300 to the A550 (high ISO is where it's at for me - mostly sports and indoor shooting w/o flash, extra FPS are sweet, too). However, I have a kid on the way, and I also want an HD video camera (my current video camera is non-HD).

It will cost me ~$2,000 to buy two separate cameras if I go with Sony.

It will cost me ~$1,000 to buy a Canon T1i or (insert other competitor here).

If I was an average consumer, this is a no-brainer.

Money talks.
 
Adding video to a DSLR costs jack. The whole adding cost argument is just bull.
Of course "cost" is BS argument by anti-video nuts who have no logical reason on their side. They are not satisfied with don't use video if you don't want it. They insist that we all must not have it too, and it must be excluded from all Sony DSLRs. Why? Because they don't use video. We all must not have that option too.
Well I know a BS argument when I see one! And yours is a BS argument. Dyou you realy think video in any DSLR is for free? What do you tink does designers and programmers eat at home in the evening? Sand? Those people cost monney, so will the work they put in the video mode.

I do say that Sony is right for not putting crappy video in a DSLR like the other brands. They will come out with a Video DSLR, but only then when you can use it in a pleasant manner. not before that!

When I can get the choise for a DSLR with and without video I go for the one without. I do think that the DSLR design is for stills not for video!

I love the choise we have. So Sony is not offering video? That's fine with me. I know they will come with video soon. The have to even when it's only to stop the BS in these forums
 
I am not against the merge of video and DSRL cameras, but from discussions with video makers and from my own experiences with video I would never think about getting one of today's video-DSRL cameras.
I never got this kind of "it has video? then no, thanks" thought. What problem causes the presence of video in a dslr?

I can anticipate a possible answer: no, the price would be the same without, since it's 90% marketing driven.
So putting in an option like video (or any option) is free? The programmer and designer need no pay at the end of the month? You realy do believe that? Do you realy think Sony can tell them that there paycheck is not there becouse the feature they programmed is 90% marketing driven? Who when can you start at my company, it is totaly 100% marketing driven, so you have to work for free!!

Stop this BS every option costs monney. And Sony (and all the other brands) are selling cameras for profit. So when they put some extra option in a camera it makes the prise go up, or they put less monney in other features. That is logic!
 
What I can't figure out is why you are even on this forum. You clearly dislike Sony and everything they represent in DSLR photography and you clearly admire Canon, Nikon and Pentax. So why are you wasting your time, energy and insults and belittling the passionate Sony/Minolta owners who own camera's without video because they enjoy taking "still" photographs. I am sure the other camera forums will welcome you with open arms and this forum will not miss you AT ALL!
 
Stop this BS every option costs monney. And Sony (and all the other brands) are selling cameras for profit. So when they put some extra option in a camera it makes the prise go up, or they put less monney in other features. That is logic!
The price does not go up with adding video. Look at the Canon T1i, it's not more expensive than when the XSI. The Nikon D90 was not more expensive than the D80. The Pentax K-x is not anymore expensive than the K-m. The Olympus E-620 is not more expensive than the E-520. Remember to look at prices at the time of release. So I don't get where you expect the price of the camera to go up. If you sell more cameras then you offset the cost of adding a feature. Does it make a difference? Only time will tell with the yearly report, but just going off of Amazon's selling in the UK and US, over the last few weeks, then Sony is hurting somewhere. If it's not video then it could be the lesser reviews.
 
Stop this BS every option costs monney. And Sony (and all the other brands) are selling cameras for profit. So when they put some extra option in a camera it makes the prise go up, or they put less monney in other features. That is logic!
The price does not go up with adding video. Look at the Canon T1i, it's not more expensive than when the XSI. The Nikon D90 was not more expensive than the D80. The Pentax K-x is not anymore expensive than the K-m. The Olympus E-620 is not more expensive than the E-520. Remember to look at
the problem with this arguement is that cameras are in general getting cheaper.

For example a camera of past with 1mp might have cost many times more than todays 22mp camera. And giving this as example you cannot say that a 22mp camera is cheaper than 1mp camera.

So if X cam is cheap, it would be cheaper without video.

Why because nothing is free. For example even if you put a mic into it, it costs some money.

No doing does not cost money but doing it does cost.
prices at the time of release. So I don't get where you expect the price of the camera to go up. If you sell more cameras then you offset the cost of adding a feature. Does it make a difference? Only time will tell with the yearly report, but just going off of Amazon's selling in the UK and US, over the last few weeks, then Sony is hurting somewhere. If it's not video then it could be the lesser reviews.
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::> I make spelling mistakes. May Dog forgive me for this.
 
Nordstjernen wrote:
So putting in an option like video (or any option) is free? The programmer and designer need no pay at the end of the month? You realy do believe that? Do you realy think Sony can tell them that there paycheck is not there becouse the feature they programmed is 90% marketing driven? Who when can you start at my company, it is totaly 100% marketing driven, so you have to work for free!!
I dont get your point of working for free, it's not like the guys assembling the buttons are paid 10% of the ones assembling the sensors because that's the difference in cost between the two parts...

So do you really think that the Canon 1Ds FF sensor, mirror and pentaprism are 3000$ more expensive than the same parts in 1D? Because those are the only differences between them, and that'll be the difference in price between the cameras.

There's no video-less "alternative" to 5DII, that's the camera filling the role of "cheap FF camera" in canon line, and that's the price tag Canon decided for it. If now they wanted to do a cheaper camera without video, the difference in production cost would be totally negligible (probably 0), add the fact that the logistic expenses (storing, shipping etc) would be the same, it would basically mean less introit for Canon. They'll never do that.
Luc
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http://www.pbase.com/duca_v2
 
Well Lucas , Fighting is one of the important things we do here .

But I don't think we should be fighting about turning a very good DSLR into a video + Still DSLR Camera .

So we need a new thread to fight over what we should be fighting over .

I think we should be fighting for something that really improves the scope or the range of the DSLR .

This is my idea for one thing we should fight over .

Suppose video were to add one ounce and 5 mm to each dimension of a DSLR , and $100.00 to the price , and it might add more if we need a much more durable shutter and much improved AF .

This might make it too heavy and too expensive and too large to sell many of them and this might cause a drop in profits which would take money away from development of something we would much prefer to add to our DSLR Cameras .

It also might make it unlikely that we would see any valuable improvements to the DSLR just because they are already to heavy , to large , to expensive , and to complicated to make further improvements .

I think we should be fighting over redesigning the thing so that it has a shiftable sensor by user interface menu selections . This would make it easy to shoot like a view camera , placing one end of the sensor in the center of the lens axis for ease of focus at a part of the image which is needs to be near the end of the image area .

For example , a persons face when they are standing would naturally be near the top of the image sensor area ( really the bottom ) , for a natural look .

This method ( moving the sensor would eliminate the need for shift lenses and the shift tracks and knobs built into the shift lens body .

It would make the camera much easier to use as a view camera , and it would reduce he added weight of the shift lens at the same time .

This camera would be able to shift any lens even those not designed with extra large image circles .

They could be used even with the darkened area where the lens can not cover .

The most important advantage is the added ease and accuracy of focusing on the area when it is moved to the lens center of axis , it could be instantly snapped to sharp focus by the camera's autofocus and it will be in sharp focus every time .

This is because the cross bar focus is only at the center of the image circle and this is also where the viewfinder works best at manual focus .

So you could get excellent eyelash focus and the feet could be just a little soft , but the feet will still be much sharper and natural than they would be if you had to tilt the camera down to include the feet .

The perspective angle would also be very improved and very natural by shooting with the camera not tilted down , ( but held level to the horizon ) .

The extra large image circle lenses designed for shift use would also be much smaller and light weight , because they would not have geared tracks and adjustment knobs on them . These knobs are difficult to use because they are so cramped for space and they can make the camera difficult to use because they are in the way of other control devices .

With the sensor of the a-900 having the resolution to clearly show hair strands in sharp fine lines in a photo of a full 4 x 6 feet area it is now necessary to use the center of the lens to its full advantage , in order to take advantage of the a-900 sensor resolution .

This is near impossible to do when you need to focus very close to the long end of the optical view finder where the image is not sharp to the eye . And this is a place where the autofocus as no focus sensors to do it for you .

All this is cured by moving the image sensor to a position where the end is centered in the viewfinder and in the center of the lens axis .

We should be fighting for improvements for still photography , not adding video to a very good DSLR . I am sure there are many things to fight over which would make improvements for the still image , and video is not one of them .

Dusty
 
The price does not go up with adding video. Look at the Canon T1i, it's not more expensive than when the XSI. The Nikon D90 was not more expensive than the D80. The Pentax K-x is not anymore expensive than the K-m. The Olympus E-620 is not more expensive than the E-520.
However, Sony A550 is more expensive than most of the cameras that you listed, and A550 has no video. The "cost" remains total BS argument. Had A550 included video, the cost would have been easily covered by increased sales. Sony would have made more money than the cost to put video in A550. As it is, how many new users who are buying their first DSLR will skip Canon T1i, Nikon D90, Nikon 5000, Pentax K-x and instead pick Sony A550 that unlike all other available options has no video? Not many. Indeed, it's more costly to have no video (a marketing feature) when you are competing is such a tough market.
 

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