Bounce flash Exposure

Steve Dudley

Senior Member
Messages
1,131
Reaction score
0
Location
West Australia, AU
I understand that Ettl meters through the lense and sets the power of the flash for what it sees as the correct exposure . When using bounce flash I understand that the power of the flash is somewhat reduced depending on the height and reflectivity of the surface you are bouncing on. I also understand that the only way of adjusting the exposure with Ettl is is by using FEC.

Now I am taking a photo of a bride 3/4 length and the camera is set to Manual I am using a good bounce surface and and adequate Iso and aperture to give the flash enough kick to light the subject. Does the metering look at the white dress and try to expose it as grey 18% or because I am using manual it does not. If it does not in M does it does it do it in say AV mode.I know that bounce flash is a suck it and see approach and I obviously will be chimping and adjusting the FEC as needed.
 
I agree, look at Planet Neil. The camera is still metering (how else does it know at what power it wants to fire the flash?) and will want to darken a light dress so you usually need positive FEC.
 
The camera is not metering for ambient light, but with the camera on M and the flash on E-TTL, it will meter the flash to match the aperture the camera is set to.
--
Kurt
 
Thanks guys that was the answer I was looking for positive FEC when the subject is light ie. white dress. I have worked it out for outdoor shots I will go back to the old days of getting an ambient light reading in manual mode and applying fill adjusting FEC as needed . The digital camera is amazing for what it does but when it comes to Flash and taking shots of predominately white or black subjects you are constantly having to monitor your exposure . I always use Raw and although I would like to nail each exposure at least I have the comfort of that two stops adjustment.
 
Unfortunately, DSLR's are like shooting slide film. There is no latitude as there is with color or black & white negative film. TTL worked on film cameras because the lab was able to compensate in printing and most photographers didn't realize this. When digital came along, they got a rude awakening. To get the most accurate exposures with the camera, use an incident ambient light meter and use the camera in manual. For flash, you can use an incident flash meter and use the flash in manual.

However, if you are in a mobile situation, you may have to use the camera and flash in ettl and one of the program modes.
 
Unfortunately, DSLR's are like shooting slide film.
They were, a few years ago. Most of the modern ones do about 2 stops better than slide film latitude.
There is no latitude as there is with color or black & white negative film. TTL worked on film cameras because the lab was able to compensate in printing and most photographers didn't realize this.
You're confusing TTL with "auto" modes using the flash's own sensor.
When digital came along, they got a rude awakening.
Digital still uses TTL. They use preflash based TTL because the sensor doesn't scatter light the way film does, so you need to meter either off the shutter curtain after raising the mirror (like old Nikon D-TTL) or meter before raising the mirror using the main exposure sensors (like Nikon iTTL or Canon ETTL).

No "rude awakening".
To get the most accurate exposures with the camera, use an incident ambient light meter and use the camera in manual.
That's not the "most accurate", because incident metering makes assumptions about the reflectance range of the subject matter. Specular reflection (jewelry, mineral based makeup, rhinestones on clothing, dew on plants) renders those assumptions invalid.

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
Re> and one of the program modes.

Interesting. My camera only has ONE program mode.

BAK
 
but the attempt to make unnecessary corrections to a well-meaning post just confuse people.

And a flash meter is still the most accurate way, THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE TIME, to get accurate flash exposures. If the meter is used properly, it'll be the most accurate way ALL the time.

BAK
 
That's not the "most accurate", because incident metering makes assumptions about the reflectance range of the subject matter. Specular reflection (jewelry, mineral based makeup, rhinestones on clothing, dew on plants) renders those assumptions invalid.
Hi Joseph

Please help me to understand this... I thought that both reflective and incident metering make assumptions about the reflectance range of the subject matter; that they both 'reference' a standard 18% reflectance. Is that not true?

I am a wedding photographer. When I use Nikon's iTTL (not-BL) on my SB800s and am shooting, as an example, a horizontal close up of three black tux clad men, the flash always overexposes by about a stop, as its trying to bring the reflectance of the scene to 18% grey, though at least two thirds of the frame is black tux cloth.

Conversely, when shooting a close up of a white clad bride, it underexposes for the same reason.

Both examples assume indoor shooting, camera in manual, with negligible ambient light.

Yet, when I take an incident flash meter reading of the scene and set the SB800 to the appropriate manual setting, the exposure is correct no matter what the reflectivity of the subject! (assumes the camera-mounted SB800 maintains the same subject distance.)
Whats going on?
Thanks in advance for your help.
Lou
 
That's not the "most accurate", because incident metering makes assumptions about the reflectance range of the subject matter. Specular reflection (jewelry, mineral based makeup, rhinestones on clothing, dew on plants) renders those assumptions invalid.
Hi Joseph

Please help me to understand this... I thought that both reflective and incident metering make assumptions about the reflectance range of the subject matter; that they both 'reference' a standard 18% reflectance. Is that not true?
Incident makes no assumptions about scene reflection. By measuring the light falling on the subject, it will put mid tones in their proper places, no matter what percentage of the scene they occupy or what the scene's average reflectance is. A tiny little 18% or 35% reflective face will be properly exposed even if it's in a sea of white or one of black.

But incident will not account for either the dynamic range of the camera or the scene, so a 120% white like a wedding dress will blow out, or a 500% reflecting piece of jewelry.

TTL, in it's simplest and oldest form did make an assumption about the scene being 18%. If you have a Nikon D100 or D1X, that's basically what you got. Newer TTL systems work differently. The iTTL system uses whatever the camera has for light measurement, up to 1005 zones in cameras like D2X or D3. It should be able to recognize scene elements, like several small flesh colored areas are faces, and base the exposure on them, instead of trying to bring dominant scene elements to 18% gray.
I am a wedding photographer. When I use Nikon's iTTL (not-BL) on my SB800s and am shooting, as an example, a horizontal close up of three black tux clad men, the flash always overexposes by about a stop, as its trying to bring the reflectance of the scene to 18% grey, though at least two thirds of the frame is black tux cloth.
It shouldn't be. Did you set "center weighted" metering? Normally, it should also use "3D metering", checking focus distance to "sanity check" the flash power. The 3D feature disengages when you turn the flash or tilt it up or down (because you can't pre-calculate bounce flash) but if you have the flash pointed straight forward and put some sort of light modifier or diffuser ("mini" soft boxes are the worst) the 3D feature totally screws up exposure.
Conversely, when shooting a close up of a white clad bride, it underexposes for the same reason.
Again, on the newer cameras, that's what Nikon's iTTL is supposed to avoid.
Both examples assume indoor shooting, camera in manual, with negligible ambient light.

Yet, when I take an incident flash meter reading of the scene and set the SB800 to the appropriate manual setting, the exposure is correct no matter what the reflectivity of the subject! (assumes the camera-mounted SB800 maintains the same subject distance.)
Whats going on?
Either iTTL isn't doing it's job (and it sometimes doesn't) or you're using a light modifier or a metering setting (center weight or spot) that's keeping it from working.

Best I can say, if you're working in situations where you have the time for incident metering and the access to the subject position, it's a good way to go. But you really need to debug the TTL for the more "action" oriented parts of the shoot.

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
Either iTTL isn't doing it's job (and it sometimes doesn't) or you're using a light modifier or a metering setting (center weight or spot) that's keeping it from working.

Best I can say, if you're working in situations where you have the time for incident metering and the access to the subject position, it's a good way to go. But you really need to debug the TTL for the more "action" oriented parts of the
I never use a light modifying device of any kind. I have the camera set on Manual. Doesn't that take the meter out of the equation? The meter is on matrix anyway. Should I be shooting in some other exposure mode, such as aperture priority or shutter priority? Would the selection of either of these modes make the matrix metering scene analysis kick in?
This is information that just does not seem to be out there!
Thanks in advance.
Lou
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top