Returned my S90: Tilt / distortion / whatever.

Tom Hoots · Oct 14, 2009

Luciano Morpurgo said:
To me it just looks like the camera wasn't exactly parallel to the front wall. You just tilt it a bit to the right, and the distortion increases on the right. The closer is an object, the more it gets distorted.

Well, I think the "proof of concept" was made during the original series -- wherein, absolutely every time, over and over and over again as I tested the different ISO settings, and remember I take dozens of shots where other folks might take just one -- the LX3 and the WX1 produced pictures that were essentially "straight," whereas every single S90 shot had this "tilt" to it.

Yes, I fully realize that no lens is perfect -- indeed, the LX3 and the WX1 weren't geometrically "perfect" by any means -- but there's an "amount of imperfection" line that the S90 clearly crossed, for the worse. And this last test was probably about as close as anyone could get without getting into "laboratory" conditions -- it's not difficult to find the exact center of the room, given the carpet patterns, the seat positioning and such, and then the angle of the camera is a byproduct of getting into that dead center position, and then I could use the many patterns in the room to make sure I got the shot completely centered.

In the end, it's kind like the lens -- I may not have been able to get it "exactly perfect," but again, I got it as close as I could outside of "laboratory conditions." And, like almost all of the "test shots" I've published, these are the kinds of shots I have been taking for absolutely years, with many different cameras. And this was the first time I've seen something so completely "out of square."

Tom Hoots
http://thoots.zenfolio.com

Tom Hoots · Oct 14, 2009

Paul Marbs said:
What's the point in the G11? I can see the point in the S90 but really the G11?
Might as well stick with the LX3 or get a GF1 if you're gonna get a G11..

It's all so very, very simple. I have spent an entire year fiddling with the LX3, and doing little else but that, in an utterly failed attempt to get the kind of color I want out of it. I am "done" with "Panasonic color."

Tom Hoots
http://thoots.zenfolio.com

theranman · Oct 14, 2009

As far as the S90 not being a fun camera, can't ya just leave it in automatic mode?

WolfyWho · Oct 14, 2009

Tom Hoots said:
BravoBrown said:

Btw, unless you were directly in the center of the room, there would be no auto correction for that. If you were directly in the center, the sensor was slightly tilted, not just lens distortion going on.

Click to expand...

I was as close to center as I could possibly get, as far as that goes....

As close to center as possible is important, but also that the lens axis was perfectly perpendicular to the wall too.

James Bligh · Oct 14, 2009

If you can live without RAW in a compact get a Canon compact which has superfine file quality when it is still available. (This means you should search for last year’s model.) Here is the reason why.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1010&message=33349704

P.S.: I am also considering buying a SD/IXUS which has superfine file quality.

--

In Manchester in the 1840s, men and women were treated like animals. Why then should we be surprised that the utopian dreams of early communists were so appealing, or be so certain that they never will be again? -- Michael Elliott

petiteface · Oct 14, 2009

Tom

I posted this in the Sony forum as well. But one user on Amazon suggested the use of "flash" WB for outdoors which addresses the color funkiness (in addition to the DRO off which you have already done).

THat user claimed that this setting took care of the contrast boost requirement in PP.

Would you be able to try it? Thanks.

Dabbler · Oct 14, 2009

you're assuming the building was constructed perfectly. I find variations in all buildings. Maybe a test chart would be more reliable?
--
Michael

OM1 · Oct 14, 2009

Tom Hoots said:
Well, if you've been with me during my testing,

I have been, and I enjoyed it a lot. Thanks again for your efforts! Too bad that the excursion wound up like this.

Tom Hoots said:
And I used the word "distortion" -- I really don't think this is a "tilted sensor," but rather it probably has everything to do with the optical barrel distortion present in the S90's lens, and the S90's in-camera processing to "eliminate" it.

I don't think so. From the result of the mirror test that I suggested and you performed with your S90 (see http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1010&message=33304478 ff) it seemed quite apparent to me that the image tilt is indeed due to a tilted sensor.

Also, I cannot imagine the in-camera distortion correction to produce the tilt. If that was your suspicion, it would have been easy to proove or disproove it by comparing the JPG and RAW versions of such a shot. A perpendicular tele shot of a piece of scale paper would have helped as well to determine what was wrong with your camera. Too bad that you already returned it.

Tom Hoots said:
I generally expect that other S90's may well have entirely similar issues.

I hope that this isn't the case. And I also hope that some other S90 owners pick up the torch and promptly proove or disproove this assumption before it spreads as a rumor.

jimr · Oct 14, 2009

confirm the cause because if OM1 is correct...it could be a poor sample issue with the sensor and not the lens....
Thank You!
Jim

OM1 said:
I don't think so. From the result of the mirror test that I suggested and you performed with your S90 (see http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1010&message=33304478 ff) it seemed quite apparent to me that the image tilt is indeed due to a tilted sensor.

Also, I cannot imagine the in-camera distortion correction to produce the tilt. If that was your suspicion, it would have been easy to proove or disproove it by comparing the JPG and RAW versions of such a shot. A perpendicular tele shot of a piece of scale paper would have helped as well to determine what was wrong with your camera. Too bad that you already returned it.

OM1 said:

I generally expect that other S90's may well have entirely similar issues.

Click to expand...

I hope that this isn't the case. And I also hope that some other S90 owners pick up the torch and promptly proove or disproove this assumption before it spreads as a rumor.

badbob001 · Oct 14, 2009

It would be interesting if the tilt was intentional like a firmware feature to compensate for movement when the user presses the shutter button, perhaps related to the Enable Image Stabilization Only At Shutter Press option. I suppose you didn't try the same shot on a timer setting and disabling Image Stabilization completely?

ncsakany · Oct 14, 2009

OM1 said:
I don't think so. From the result of the mirror test that I suggested and you performed with your S90 (see http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1010&message=33304478 ff) it seemed quite apparent to me that the image tilt is indeed due to a tilted sensor.

In the mirror test, no matter how the camera was held, as long as it was perfectly parallel with the surface of the mirror, it should appear 100% level with respect to itself. Even if the camera were at 45% tilt relative to the mirror, it would still be perfectly level relative to itself.

Nick

Tom Hoots · Oct 14, 2009

petiteface said:
I posted this in the Sony forum as well. But one user on Amazon suggested the use of "flash" WB for outdoors which addresses the color funkiness (in addition to the DRO off which you have already done).

That user claimed that this setting took care of the contrast boost requirement in PP.

Would you be able to try it? Thanks.

Yes, I've read that.

Yes, I've tried it.

No, I don't agree that it's a useful strategy. It just imparts a very yellowish cast to everything, which just kind of made everything that much worse.

Tom Hoots
http://thoots.zenfolio.com

ncsakany · Oct 14, 2009

Tom,

I can't fathom how it could be that the resulting photo was in any way different than what you saw on the preview. Since this is a live view camera, shouldn't it be WYSIWYG? In other words, when you aligned the grid on the camera's display with the border in the hall, you essentially were looking at the actual image being captured byt the same sensor through the same lens.

Nick

mcshan · Oct 14, 2009

Hi Tom, Hope you see this. I got my LX3 after seeing your test results. I still love the camera but as you know one must work to get the desired colors. I said to myself "if the LX3 had the colors of my SD870" it would be perfect.

I went to my local Best Buy yesterday and kept thinking of your "tilt" issue. I checked out the S90 and ran through all the test shots in my mind. I finally purchased a G11. I charged it up at home and had exactly 10 minutes of sunshine. I ran out and took 4 or 5 shots in auto and thought the colors were great (even more impressive exactly because it was the auto settings).

I have no doubt you made the right call. Maybe you got an odd camera but even so the G11 will be great in your hands.

I still love the LX3 but I want a camera with less work needed. Canon colors straight out of the box are nice. My problem with the G10 was noise and higher ISO shooting. I think Canon listened and addressed these two issues.

In time I can't wait to see what you select as your Canon G11 C1 and C2 selections.

Olga Johnson · Oct 14, 2009

Paul Marbs said:
Well, I have to say the plot thickens!
What's the point in the G11? I can see the point in the S90 but really the G11?
Might as well stick with the LX3 or get a GF1 if you're gonna get a G11..

1: Articulating LCD
2: zoom to 140mm v. 60mm
3: Color. I have a heck of a time with LX3 color especially when the sea/water is involved. It always need correction of color in Photoshop. With the G11 I can simply resize jpg and be done. LX3 requires more work.
4: External flash - The 270EX flash (which I use with my dSLRs) is perfect for the G11.
5: Controls - The G11 has easier access to ISO changes and white balance (which I assigned to the "S" button.)

Menu with G11 is much more intuitive (at least to me being used to Canon menus).
And I can fit my G11 in the same neoprene case that I used for the LX3.

--
Olga

OM1 · Oct 14, 2009

ncsakany said:
OM1 said:

I don't think so. From the result of the mirror test that I suggested and you performed with your S90 (see http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1010&message=33304478 ff) it seemed quite apparent to me that the image tilt is indeed due to a tilted sensor.

Click to expand...

In the mirror test, no matter how the camera was held, as long as it was perfectly parallel with the surface of the mirror, it should appear 100% level with respect to itself. Even if the camera were at 45% tilt relative to the mirror, it would still be perfectly level relative to itself.

Of course. Exactly that is the nature of the mirror test that I suggested. The level sitting on the S90 in the test shot was not necessary and does not matter, if that is what irritated you.

Anyway, from the fact that the camera indeed appears tilted in Tom's test shot I concluded that the sensor of his ex camera was indeed tilted.

jimr · Oct 14, 2009

OM1 said:
ncsakany said:

OM1 said:

I don't think so. From the result of the mirror test that I suggested and you performed with your S90 (see http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1010&message=33304478 ff) it seemed quite apparent to me that the image tilt is indeed due to a tilted sensor.

Click to expand...

In the mirror test, no matter how the camera was held, as long as it was perfectly parallel with the surface of the mirror, it should appear 100% level with respect to itself. Even if the camera were at 45% tilt relative to the mirror, it would still be perfectly level relative to itself.

Click to expand...

Of course. Exactly that is the nature of the mirror test that I suggested. The level sitting on the S90 in the test shot was not necessary and does not matter, if that is what irritated you.

Anyway, from the fact that the camera indeed appears tilted in Tom's test shot I concluded that the sensor of his ex camera was indeed tilted.

ncsakany · Oct 14, 2009

I see what you mean.

Here's a better way to test:

In front of a mirror, place a bubble level on a stand and ensure it's perfectly horizontal, and a second bubble level on or below the camera (preferably a larger level and the camera on top of it).

Display the grid on the S90, and align it with the level on the stand. Take photo and compare the bubble on the camera with the one on the stand.

I'll do this tonight.

EDIT: I'm a complete moron. The mirror test you linked to proves the sensor is misaligned.

jimr · Oct 14, 2009

ncsakany said:
I see what you mean.

Here's a better way to test:

In front of a mirror, place a bubble level on a stand and ensure it's perfectly horizontal, and a second bubble level on or below the camera (preferably a larger level and the camera on top of it).

Display the grid on the S90, and align it with the level on the stand. Take photo and compare the bubble on the camera with the one on the stand.

I'll do this tonight.

EDIT: I'm a complete moron. The mirror test you linked to proves the sensor is misaligned.

ncsakany · Oct 14, 2009

See here:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1010&message=33352904

Returned my S90: Tilt / distortion / whatever.

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