Returned my S90: Tilt / distortion / whatever.

Tom Hoots

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Well, if you've been with me during my testing, and noticed how the S90 shots in the Oregon House chambers were tilted as compared to the LX3 and the WX1, and were with me in my subsequent "Is my sensor crooked" post, well, I gave it one more shot today. Here's a pretty big file, but this is pretty much the story:



For this shot, and several others, I lined up my S90's upper horizontal grid line against one of the panel borders on the wall you see above -- actually, you can see the "speaker outlets" on the wall, and there's a border above that -- but I actually lined it up against the border above that. So, call it "the border above the border above the speaker outlets."

And, while the border lined up just perfectly with the grid line while I was shooting, you can see the general tilt that resulted, absolutely including that border that I had "lined up" against. It probably decreases as you go "down" the image -- more distortion at the top, and less at the bottom.

And I used the word "distortion" -- I really don't think this is a "tilted sensor," but rather it probably has everything to do with the optical barrel distortion present in the S90's lens, and the S90's in-camera processing to "eliminate" it. "Or not."

I took it back to Best Buy, and while they took a quick shot and called it "good," I explained how it was a subtle thing that you're not going to see in uncontrolled snapshots, and that was apparently good enough for them -- they refunded my full purchase price.

Well, that story raises a few questions and/or issues, doesn't it? Perhaps that wasn't "big enough of a problem" to bail out of the camera, but it was to me. There is just absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the S90 tilt was clearly evident in the first round of high-ISO comparison shots I took -- the LX3 and the WX1 were fine, but the S90 was obviously tilted. And there's just no way I could live with that.

And then, so why didn't I just exchange it for another S90? Well, I've got a few issues there. First of all, I just don't have any confidence anymore in Canon's first attempt at pairing a hugely distorting lens with in-camera correction -- obviously, Panasonic is getting it done much better than Canon is, at least in my experience. I generally expect that other S90's may well have entirely similar issues.

Also, there was the obvious vignetting in my S90 shots with blue skies. More "lens problems."

And I have got to say, the S90 just wasn't really the kind of "fun pocket camera" that I've come to prefer -- it's just a bit bigger and more involved than the kind of "whip it out of your pocket and grab a shot" pocket cameras that I've used before. Perhaps I was substantially influenced by the little Sony WX1, but let me tell you -- for a "quick, fun, grab-it and go" camera, the WX1 is the one I want to grab. Sure, the S90 utterly crushes it in many ways, but the S90 is more of a "serious" camera in the shape of a pocket camera -- maybe it's a case that, if you give me controls, I'll go ahead and use them -- whereas with the WX1, I'll just whip it out and indeed just snap off some shots.

So, in the end, I was pretty bitterly disappointed with the S90's lens. And if it's a "serious" camera I want -- and I do want Canon's most "serious" compact -- then it just makes far more sense to get a G11, and get away from those S90 lens issues.

Perhaps my S90 was a "bad" one, and hopefully nobody else will see the kinds of tilting and such that I experienced. But this is my story, and I'll just buy a G11 from my local shop when it gets them in. And then I'll move on with my life.

Tom Hoots
http://thoots.zenfolio.com
 
Hey Tom,

Sorry to hear it worked out that way. I would have tried another S90 to see just in case, but if you're looking for better lens, the G11 is the obvious choice unless it needs to fit into tight pockets (and just slightly better in various ways according to the comparos here). There are always compromises with these small cams and ambitious lens designs. Btw, unless you were directly in the center of the room, there would be no auto correction for that. If you were directly in the center, the sensor was slightly tilted, not just lens distortion going on. For ease of use, you're looking for a different type of cam, I guess. Good luck with your continued search!

Mark
--

 
Hi Tom,

Just want to say I really enjoyed your thoughtful posts articulating what you wanted to get out of the S90 and the images you posted comparing it to the other cameras.

I didn't expect the S90's lens to be such a compromise. I guess if the lens wasn't perfectly aligned with the sensor and/or each camera given custom alignment tests to allow the camera's post processing to perform lens correction, you'd get bad results. If Canon hasn't mastered this technique yet, it would make sense to stay away from this camera generation. We'll see what the DPReview says with their test sample; maybe it was a rare issue with your sample.

It's interesting you say that you didn't find the S90 to be a fun pocket camera because its higher end controls are too tempting to ignore. Makes me wonder how soon the S90 tech will filter down to the less expensive Canon cameras. I figure that the big thing with the S90 and G11 is how much in camera processing Canon put in these things with the Digic 4 processor.

And in an unexpected way, your decision to consider buying a G11 validates my choice: I went with the G11 in part because I expected its lens performance to be as good as the G10's.

I plan to replace my SD800 IS next year (think I spent around $400 for that camera back in the day...) Hopefully the S95 or whatever comes out then will be a big improvement.
  • Marcos
 
Yeah, I'd have been curious to see you pick up another S90 and run the same test again. I'd wonder if hitting the shutter button didn't "tilt" the camera down on the right side if you weren't so experienced. Sad news indeed.
 
So, in the end, I was pretty bitterly disappointed with the S90's lens. And if it's a "serious" camera I want -- and I do want Canon's most "serious" compact -- then it just makes far more sense to get a G11, and get away from those S90 lens issues.

Perhaps my S90 was a "bad" one, and hopefully nobody else will see the kinds of tilting and such that I experienced. But this is my story, and I'll just buy a G11 from my local shop when it gets them in. And then I'll move on with my life.

Tom Hoots
http://thoots.zenfolio.com
Kind of surprised by this, but you have your standards. I just thought your trial period would be a little longer.

I bought the S90 and the G11 and have been very impressed by both. I'm guessing you'll really like the G11. I'm also predicting you'll buy the S90 again, like you did your SD880.

Good luck with the G11!

Dave
 
Perhaps I was substantially influenced by the little Sony WX1, but let me tell you -- for a "quick, fun, grab-it and go" camera, the WX1 is the one I want to grab. Sure, the S90 utterly crushes it in many ways, but the S90 is more of a "serious" camera in the shape of a pocket camera -- maybe it's a case that, if you give me controls, I'll go ahead and use them -- whereas with the WX1, I'll just whip it out and indeed just snap off some shots.
tom, i don't know if you remember, but you followed some of my posts in the sony forum regarding the wx1 i bought when it first came out. although captivated with several of its innovative features, i was disappointed in the daytime, low-iso shots and so returned it. at that time the s90 wasn't shipping, so i had no way to compare them side-by-side and i was pretty sure the s90 would crush it in good daylight shots anyway unless canon went completely off the reservation.

well, i got the s90 in and i'm pretty underwhelmed. but much of the reason i'm underwhelmed is that back before the wx1 or the s90 i had purchased the panasonic gf1 which turned out to fit my style of shooting much better than a dslr and was a fantastic replacement for the lx3. and the other reason i'm underwhelmed is that the s90 was much larger than i expected--although svelte by lx3 standards, it's much larger than the sd880 and really not 'pocketable' by my standards compared to the canon sd line or the wx1.

considering my goal was to have an edc (every day carry) pocket camera along with a midsize (gf1), the s90 didn't fit into the schema. i admit it is about the best compact camera i've ever used control-wise (although i was somewhat underwhelmed with the front control ring) and the manual mode for exposure just blows the lx3 out of the water with its twiddly joystick. but for any manual needs i'm gonna go with the gf1. if i didn't have the gf1 and needed the quality and the manual control, the s90 would be staying for sure.

anyway, you can call me officially crazy, but the s90 is going out and a wx1 is coming back in. at least i still had my spare battery and (evil) memory stick cards. i was having a lot of fun with photography when i was using the wx1 and i think i expected too much of its image quality considering its ultra-compact size and consumer targetting.

guy
 
Well, if you've been with me during my testing, and noticed how the S90 shots in the Oregon House chambers were tilted as compared to the LX3 and the WX1, and were with me in my subsequent "Is my sensor crooked" post, well, I gave it one more shot today. Here's a pretty big file, but this is pretty much the story:



[snipped]
And I used the word "distortion" -- I really don't think this is a "tilted sensor," but rather it probably has everything to do with the optical barrel distortion present in the S90's lens, and the S90's in-camera processing to "eliminate" it. "Or not."
[snipped]

And then, so why didn't I just exchange it for another S90? Well, I've got a few issues there. First of all, I just don't have any confidence anymore in Canon's first attempt at pairing a hugely distorting lens with in-camera correction -- obviously, Panasonic is getting it done much better than Canon is, at least in my experience. I generally expect that other S90's may well have entirely similar issues.
[snipped]

Perhaps my S90 was a "bad" one, and hopefully nobody else will see the kinds of tilting and such that I experienced. But this is my story, and I'll just buy a G11 from my local shop when it gets them in. And then I'll move on with my life.
Looking at the top part of the image where all the names are, it seems to me that the distortion is all on the right-hand side. I doubt that this asymmetry is produced by in-camera correction, so I think the issue is likely to be a bad copy of the lens. Of course, I have no way of knowing how common those bad copies are.

--
john carson
 
Looking at the top part of the image where all the names are, it seems to me that the distortion is all on the right-hand side. I doubt that this asymmetry is produced by in-camera correction, so I think the issue is likely to be a bad copy of the lens. Of course, I have no way of knowing how common those bad copies are.
To me it just looks like the camera wasn't exactly parallel to the front wall. You just tilt it a bit to the right, and the distortion increases on the right. The closer is an object, the more it gets distorted.
Luc
--
http://www.pbase.com/duca_v2
 
I thought the floor of the chamber had lots of blue in it? Didn't it in the original pics? Can you tell us what color it REALLY is? The Sony was completely different from the S90 and LX3. Which was the most correct in your original comparo shots?
 
Yeah, I'd have been curious to see you pick up another S90 and run the same test again. I'd wonder if hitting the shutter button didn't "tilt" the camera down on the right side if you weren't so experienced. Sad news indeed.
Once again, the situation was that I had the S90 steadied on the balcony railing, with the upper grid line lined straight up against the panel joint line. And, if you know me, I just didn't go in there and snap one shot -- I've got a dozen more pictures exactly like this one.

Tom Hoots
http://thoots.zenfolio.com
 
Was this reported to Canon. If more did the same would it be a good case for a recall of the S90......?

Has any one else made this type of test. My S90 want be here untill friday.
--
iloco
 
Well, I have to say the plot thickens!
What's the point in the G11? I can see the point in the S90 but really the G11?
Might as well stick with the LX3 or get a GF1 if you're gonna get a G11..
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I thought the floor of the chamber had lots of blue in it? Didn't it in the original pics? Can you tell us what color it REALLY is? The Sony was completely different from the S90 and LX3. Which was the most correct in your original comparo shots?
In this case, it's an entirely different room -- the Oregon Senate chambers. Darker wood, different picture, different carpet. :-)

In the original series, the WX1 seemed to be quite a bit "warmer" than the others, but to an extent I found it a bit more pleasing. Maybe not "more accurate" by any means, but I liked the color it gave to the wood....

Tom Hoots
http://thoots.zenfolio.com
 
I'm also predicting you'll buy the S90 again, like you did your SD880.
Oh, could be, could be. I sure didn't want to get another from the "original Best Buy batch," though, and I sure didn't want to wind up telling the same "it's really quite subtle, you have to take pictures in a controlled setting" story again in another week or so....

Tom Hoots
http://thoots.zenfolio.com
 
And I used the word "distortion" -- I really don't think this is a "tilted sensor," but rather it probably has everything to do with the optical barrel distortion present in the S90's lens, and the S90's in-camera processing to "eliminate" it. "Or not."
I guess either a tilted sensor (that happens, have seen it in other cameras) or tilted lens assembly.
Also, there was the obvious vignetting in my S90 shots with blue skies. More "lens problems."
to me it was obvious (not necessarily a negative though) in many of your shots, not just in the blue skies. The S90 looks like it has a 'hot spot' compared to the LX3. And although the color is sometimes better / more pleasing than the LX3, most of the images look overprocessed to me. And then there the lacking detail compared to the LX3, probably related to too strong noise removal in processing. Btw, thanks for all your testing.
Sure, the S90 utterly crushes it in many ways, but the S90 is more of a "serious" camera in the shape of a pocket camera -- maybe it's a case that, if you give me controls, I'll go ahead and use them -- whereas with the WX1, I'll just whip it out and indeed just snap off some shots.
until now 95% of the WX1 shots I have seen look dull, drab, lifeless to me; the color is awful (where are the great Sony colors of some years ago?). I don't understand people like the WX1 images, maybe it is a matter of expectations? I agree the WX1 is a nice design, and the lens looks less compromised than the S90 one too.
So, in the end, I was pretty bitterly disappointed with the S90's lens. And if it's a "serious" camera I want -- and I do want Canon's most "serious" compact -- then it just makes far more sense to get a G11, and get away from those S90 lens issues.

Perhaps my S90 was a "bad" one, and hopefully nobody else will see the kinds of tilting and such that I experienced. But this is my story, and I'll just buy a G11 from my local shop when it gets them in. And then I'll move on with my life.
yes, I think the lens is too much of a compromise. Maybe it is the design, maybe the problem is in production tolerances (both would be bad unless you buy at a place where you can easily replace and check another one). Even worse, if it is due to lens/assembly problems that are corrected with in-camera processing, problems may become bigger when the lens mechanism wears over the years. To sum it up, the S90 seems a mechanically/optically severely compromised design that is rescued with in-camera processing.

I'm waiting for some more user feedback and DPReview test, but it seems all my fears regarding the S90 being a 'Super Ixus' at best are being confirmed. Great for those that always wanted that Super Ixus, but not for me.
 
Well, if you've been with me during my testing,
I've read a number of your posts, but not all. I sincerely appreciate all your efforts, but I personally don't form an opinion of a camera in the detailed manner that you do, such as superimposing gridlines over an image. There is absolutely nothing wrong with your approach, it's just not mine.

I looked at the photo included in your post and my eyes couldn't see a thing wrong with it. I had to read your roadmap before I noted the "problem." I've shot photos using a 35mm/equiv lens (the widest angle of a camera, and there can be distortion).

As Radu P pointed out, wide angle lens have distortions and, for me, the distortion in the image is well within an acceptable range for me. It's not for you, and that's okay.
Also, there was the obvious vignetting in my S90 shots with blue skies. More "lens problems."
I've had the effect in almost every digital camera I've ever owned. And I've seen the effect when viewing photos taken with other cameras, some very expensive. Since I generally crop photos, it's rarely been a problem. And, like wide angle lens distortion, it can usually be corrected when post processing.
Sure, the S90 utterly crushes it in many ways, but the S90 is more of a "serious" camera in the shape of a pocket camera --
I agree, it is a more serious than fun camera. I'm keeping mine because of the "utterly crushes" part.
Perhaps my S90 was a "bad" one, and hopefully nobody else will see the kinds of tilting and such that I experienced.
Me too.
But this is my story, and I'll just buy a G11 from my local shop when it gets them in.
Gotcha.

Enjoy the G11; it should be a fine camera.

--
gail ~ http://www.pbase.com/gailb

My XSi/450D BLOG :: http://www.digicamhelp.com/camera-logs/canon-xsi-450d/xsi450d-overall-impressions/
 
Well, I have to say the plot thickens!
What's the point in the G11? I can see the point in the S90 but really the G11?
Might as well stick with the LX3 or get a GF1 if you're gonna get a G11..
my thought as well, except that if you want a GF1 with a small, high quality lens there is very little choice (and it is far more expensive). The 1.7/20 seems great, but I don't do much photography around 40mm equivalent fl ...
 

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