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GF1 & EP1 comparison at quesabesde.com

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Abbazz said:
The only problem is that the JPEG engine of the Panasonic is not able to deliver the same clear and crisp pictures out of the box, no matter how you tweak it. I have tried cranking up the saturation, contrast and sharpness in the Panasonic but doing this doesn't remove the inherent mushiness in the JPEG images.
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The sharpening is different, and I've only seen reliable default comparisons, but but even at default setting the difference is only viewable zoomed in. My impression is the PEN (also) uses a larger radius sharpening.
Abbazz said:
My guess is that the CA correction data is included in the Panasonic camera firmware. That's why correction is done only in-camera. The camera recognizes the lens and adjusts the correction accordingly. By putting it in the camera, Panasonic can patent this design feature to prevent Olympus doing the same, while it wouldn't have been possible by putting it in the lenses, as micro 4/3rds is an open standard. It would be interesting to check Panasonic patents on the matter.
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Yes, the CA removal is done in camera for JPGs, what I meant by RAW meatadata is for processing in RAW converters. CA removal isn't part of this. Concerning the CA patent, you are most likely wrong since the new Canons do it too.
Abbazz said:
I don't get your point. Like most users, I have noticed that the Panasonic Auto mode delivers darker exposures at high ISO ratings (the camera uses higher speed than normal), which explains the all the fuzz about Panasonic having a much higher real ISO than the rated ISO. When the GF1 is carefully adjusted in manual mode to deliver the same normal exposure as the E-P1, then it becomes apparent that both cameras have the same ISO rating, which proves that the only discrepancies reside in the flawed automatic exposure system of the Panasonic.
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In your initial post you were referring to the samples, that's what I commented on. The Oly high ISOs are very soft and "mushy", even at the displayed 1.7MP level. Whether the Panasonic metering is "flawed", well, it's to a large degree a question of shooting style.

--

'If you can imagine sharing a waterbed with a baboon that's just been doused in itching powder.'
 
Some years ago I had a Sony V1 camera. It was a very good camera with fast autofocus, a nice lens, pretty decent high ISO etc. BUT colors in natural light were not that good IMHO (reds often looked magenta).
I tried all possible tweakings to no avail and ended up correcting reds in PP

If you really like the Olympus colors (or Nikon or Canon colors) you won't be able to get them by tweaking the camera parameters.

All that said I don't like the 'Olympus colors' of my E-300 ... (yes I know I could shoot RAW and use color profiles but I'd really prefer better jpeg OOC).

Just my 2 cents.

Dino
 
  • GF-1 : features champion
  • E-P1 : image quality champion
Choose one or buy both?

Welcome to m4/3!

--
Cheers,

Frederic
http://azurphoto.com/blog/
 
Pixnat2 said:
  • GF-1 : features champion
  • E-P1 : image quality champion
Choose one or buy both?

Welcome to m4/3!
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I disagree on both counts.

Feature wise, IBIS is more important to me than the AF/LCD, and IQ wise I'd take the GF1 RAW files any day:

http://images.quesabesde.com/camaras_digitales/noticias/comp_ep1_gf1_p1010548-2.jpg

http://images.quesabesde.com/camaras_digitales/noticias/comp_ep1_gf1_pa010402-2.jpg

--

'If you can imagine sharing a waterbed with a baboon that's just been doused in itching powder.'
 
For this very informative and neutral post!

Nice to see some common sense here.

I agree 100% with your point of view.
--
Cheers,

Frederic
http://azurphoto.com/blog/
 
I appreciate people who have their own opinion.

That's the goal of these forums : take what you need and make your own mind.
--
Cheers,

Frederic
http://azurphoto.com/blog/
 
Olympus has the best color JPEG engine of the two. But the GF1 seems to do color decidedly better than the LX3.

--
Raist3d (Photographer & Tools/Systems/Gui Games Developer)
Andreas Feininger (1906-1999) 'Photographers — idiots, of which there are
so many — say, “Oh, if only I had a Nikon or a Leica, I could make great
photographs.” That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard in my life. It’s
nothing but a matter of seeing, and thinking, and interest. That’s what
makes a good photograph.'
 
I agree with everything you wrote, but I don't think anybody stated that the GF1 can look identical to the PEN, the point was that a few tweaks on the JPG engine could make the GF1 mimic the PEN closely. The funny thing about these 'colour religious' wars (Sony, Canon, Kodak etc forums are all the same) is the lack of tests. Since you own both cameras, could you make a blind test? Try matching the PEN with the GF1, and post some resized EXIF stripped samples?
 
"And just like that Toyota Camry TV commercial where the actor talks about other car manufacturers saying they have performance levels just like the Camry - which then begs the question, "why not just get a Camry to begin with - there are those who will say that they can work to get the colors on their other-brand cameras to replicate Oly colors. So why not just get an Oly?"

The quote's from here (I hope Ben Herrmann wouldn't mind):
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=33221002
GregGory said:
... the point was that a few tweaks on the JPG engine could make the GF1 mimic the PEN closely. ....
Click to expand...
Try matching the PEN with the GF1...

--
'Life is something that happens to you while you're making other plans'.
M. Millar
 
Boris Moscow said:
Yes, now it looks better to my eyes but still not exactly the same as on the image from the E-P1.
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Of course they are not the same, but if you dive into the EXIF data, you'll see the Oly is shot in aperture mode (metering done according to the wishes of the Oly engineers) while the GF1 is was simply 'pegged' in manual mode to match the Oly metering. This is what accounts for most of the washed out look on this specific GF1 pic.
Boris Moscow said:
I think you need to have the processor and the AA Filter from the E-P1 to make those "Oly colors" exactly right in the jpeg's from a camera.
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AA has nothing to do with it, and remember that all these comparisons are done in default mode. The GF1 (all Panasonics) have a comprehensive JPG tweaking options, various film modes, saturation, contrast, brightness, and a 2D space where you can set the hue and WB bias of your liking. So, yeah, one cannot have have exactly the same PEN look, but you can get much much closer than you see in these samples. Potentially, you could get a look that matches your personal taste a lot better than the Oly default look. Secondly, the 'Oly-look' varies too across different cameras, sensors, and processors. I'm still waiting for a reliable colour blind test for the Oly/Canon/Kodak/Sony "magic".
Boris Moscow said:
And yes, I agree it is all "a different philosophy" in color rendition. Everyone is free to chose from the two approaches.
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Indeed.

--

'If you can imagine sharing a waterbed with a baboon that's just been doused in itching powder.'
 
This thread is going off track.

The point many people have made is that the colours are adjustable on both cameras so people shouldn't make that a major point in the purchase.......... unless they are monster fans of a colour profile with no desire for anything even slightly different and they abhor pp adjustment.

There are far more important differences between the GF1 and EP1 that should factor into a decision.........and they can't be 'adjusted' at all.
IS implementation, lens compatibility, flash, focus speed, cost, etc etc etc.
 
Boris Moscow said:
"And just like that Toyota Camry TV commercial where the actor talks about other car manufacturers saying they have performance levels just like the Camry - which then begs the question, "why not just get a Camry to begin with - there are those who will say that they can work to get the colors on their other-brand cameras to replicate Oly colors. So why not just get an Oly?"
Click to expand...
Your comment relies on the assumption that the Oly default look is the best look imaginable. If you really think so, read no further. What I say is, since the Panasonic JPG engine has an infinite number of tweaking possibilities (actually, it's just been copied by Canon) and it's quite easy to mimic the colour look of the PEN, you could probably obtain a look that suits your taste even better. After all, it's your eyes that matters, not the knowledge that your pics are made in accordance with a 'standard', isn't it?

There is at least no reason to dump the GF1 because of the default JPG look (I've dumped it because of the lack of IBIS, but that's another story).

--

'If you can imagine sharing a waterbed with a baboon that's just been doused in itching powder.'
 
kwtoxman said:
The point many people have made is that the colours are adjustable on both cameras so people shouldn't make that a major point in the purchase.......... unless they are monster fans of a colour profile with no desire for anything even slightly different and they abhor pp adjustment.
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I like the PEN because I can use it like P&S camera that gives me fantastic jpegs OOC, that I don't need to PP. So for family shots, snaphots,... it's great!
For shots that I have to PP, I use the Canon 5D or Oly E-3.

So for me, colors OOC PEN was one of the most important factor to choose between the E-P1 and GF-1 : a camera wich I can shoot without thinking about PP, that's very cool!

But of course, if it's a matter of personal preference.
--
Cheers,

Frederic
http://azurphoto.com/blog/
 
Have you read the previous posts? Your answer confuses me.....

Both cameras offer on body colour and saturation adjustments, so, as has been mentioned, the GF1 will come close to the EP1 for OOC colours. \

I only mentioned PP as an example of going to the extreme to totally mimic the EP1 colour profie..... If one isn't that crazy to want an exact colour profile (and most people aren't that nuts about colour profile specifics) then both camera's offer on board menu adjustment to tweak colours. So EP1 colour fans will be happy with the GF1 colours... OOC.
Pixnat2 said:
I like the PEN because I can use it like P&S camera that gives me fantastic jpegs OOC, that I don't need to PP. So for family shots, snaphots,... it's great!
For shots that I have to PP, I use the Canon 5D or Oly E-3.

So for me, colors OOC PEN was one of the most important factor to choose between the E-P1 and GF-1 : a camera wich I can shoot without thinking about PP, that's very cool!

But of course, if it's a matter of personal preference.
--
Cheers,

Frederic
http://azurphoto.com/blog/
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Couldn't you boost the saturation on GF1 Jpegs or use Dynamic Film Mode to get the same effect and colors as the EP1....and get the bonus of avoiding the chromatic aberration.
 
You probably don't have to tweak the GF1 JPEGs at all. Just increase the Saturation settings to your liking or use Dynamic Film mode. I don't think you can limit yourself to the "default" settings when the camera is designed for you to adjust JPEGs to your liking. That's actually a flaw in most of the photo review sites photo comparisons. They only use "default" settings and ignore the ability to adjust the camera to your personal preference.
cast1010 said:
TEBnewyork said:
But what is your point here? Look at the leaves on the top shot? It looks awful. So what good is a good jpeg engine if you don't correct the problem areas. Why would I want picture 1 over picture 2. What am I missing?
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I'm just a regular guy when it comes to photography, I'm not a pro nor an illiterate when it comes to this subject...I just want good quality pictures with minimal PP on my part.

I see both shots and by a considerable margin the top one is more appealing, the warmer more saturated colors in the bricks and sky make the difference compared to the dull ones on the second shot.

But yes, you can tell the problem on the leaves by comparing the shots at full size, but I wouldn't have noticed if you didn't mention it on the first place...I would have never seen a picture like this at its full size anyways.

EP-1 has an advantage on jpeg out of the camera (for my needs), I hope the GF1 can be tweaked to produced similar results....or maybe even getting a firmware update in the future.
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I probably had to start with that I have a Panasonic LX3, love it and am not going to part with it. Now you see I am loyal to the brand and know something about the in-camera tweaking of the jpeg outputs. The images from the LX3 have something special to my eyes that make this camera different from others that can produce images probably more true to life but they do not touch my feelings as much as the images from my LX3.

Having had this very positive experience with Panasonic LX3 when I saw the images from E-P1 I could not help but like them. To my eyes the color rendition has made progress since the Olympus E-410 through E-620 and now E-P1. The last one has not only the same sensor as in the E-620 but a new (and better to my eyes) processor and AA-filter. All those changes made the so called color rendition in the images from E-P1 just what I have been waiting for some time. And that is enough reason for me to buy the camera. I hope I made my point of view clearer now.

GregGory wrote:

What I say is, since the Panasonic JPG engine has an infinite number of tweaking possibilities
GregGory said:
There is at least no reason to dump the GF1 because of the default JPG look (I've dumped it because of the lack of IBIS, but that's another story).
Click to expand...
--
'Life is something that happens to you while you're making other plans'.
M. Millar
 
kwtoxman said:
Have you read the previous posts? Your answer confuses me.....
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Of course. You wrote :
kwtoxman said:
There are far more important differences between the GF1 and EP1 that should factor into a decision.........and they can't be 'adjusted' at all. IS implementation, lens compatibility, flash, focus speed, cost, etc etc etc.
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I just tell that for me, image quality of the E-P1 was far more important than all this technical aspects to chose it against the GF-1.
kwtoxman said:
Both cameras offer on body colour and saturation adjustments, so, as has been mentioned, the GF1 will come close to the EP1 for OOC colours. \
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What I explained is that I don't want to loose my time about adjusting settings with a camera that I will use mainly as a P&S camera with DSLR IQ.

And the E-P1 is so great that I don't need to adjust anything.
kwtoxman said:
I only mentioned PP as an example of going to the extreme to totally mimic the EP1 colour profie..... If one isn't that crazy to want an exact colour profile (and most people aren't that nuts about colour profile specifics) then both camera's offer on board menu adjustment to tweak colours. So EP1 colour fans will be happy with the GF1 colours... OOC.
Click to expand...
Maybe, but I'm happier with E-P1 colours OOC, and I don't need to adjust settings. That's great!
kwtoxman said:
Pixnat2 said:
I like the PEN because I can use it like P&S camera that gives me fantastic jpegs OOC, that I don't need to PP. So for family shots, snaphots,... it's great!
For shots that I have to PP, I use the Canon 5D or Oly E-3.

So for me, colors OOC PEN was one of the most important factor to choose between the E-P1 and GF-1 : a camera wich I can shoot without thinking about PP, that's very cool!

But of course, if it's a matter of personal preference.
--
Cheers,

Frederic
http://azurphoto.com/blog/
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
Cheers,

Frederic
http://azurphoto.com/blog/
 
Excuse me? Who are you to call others' opinions stupid? You have every right to disagree, but no right whatsoever to be condescending.

Dorus
kwtoxman said:
Yup, I agree. It's a stupid comment above (sorry to be blunt). It is a two second process to set the camera to get the saturation and balance preferred.

Either the Olympus or Panasonic can be quickly set (and with memory) to and individuals preference. Beyond that one needs to see the more significant differences between the cameras. And reviewers point it out clearly (e.g. LCD resolutions, EVF availability, focus speed, flash, IS implementation, etc).
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