Please stop purchasing at BestBuy

pinnacle,

I commented, in an earlier post, that you may not have read.

In that post, I stated that I called HSBC Retail Services/Best Buy and was informed that they have not reneged on the 0% promotions.

They have only raised their interest rates.

Those rates will not affect your 0% financing purchase, unless you were to miss a payment or fail to pay off the 0% balance before the promotion end date.

It appears that 12 month, 0% financing on your purchase was not affected.

I agree that the credit card companies are getting away with too much.

However, HSBC/Best Buy has not reneged on their 0% promotions.

Always a few Horatio Algers in the discussion who want to make this a conversation about virtue.

I also don't carry any credit card debt, but there is going to be a blow-up like the mortgage crisis if credit card companies feel they can suddnely raise rates by double digits. People have a right to expect that interest rates should not go up so precipitously. For some of the people here who are cricisizing anyone who uses credit to buy something, consider mortgages. Should everyone wait to buy a house until they have the full purchase price? Who would benefit from that?

--
-wick

Marcamera said:

What would you say to customers who pay off their cards before due date in full (using them as a convenience tool only) or pay cash?

Why should they stop buying and supporting a vendor, just because someone else has their beef with them?

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Actually, many credit card companies have expressed their intention to start charging fees to those customers who pay off their balance each month. If you don't want to pay the 30% interest, you'll pay the fee instead. Looks like there will be an upsurge in people paying with cash.

--
-wick

Soenda said:

Tom C said:

Over ten years ago I was up to my neck in credit card debt, I manage to settle all the debt, cut up all the cards and now buy something when I have the money and no one bailed me out when I was in debt.

Unless you pay the complete bill when the first payment comes in, that camera that you got free shipping on ends up costing twice as much. I would never own another credit card, you can get better rates from a loan shark. If the OP wants to protest anyone it should be the Government, banks, credit card companies or themselves for making it so easy to get these cards. There is no sign at Best Buy saying you have to buy their products with a credit card.
And just for the record I'm far from wealthy.

Cedarhill said:

Not every household uses credit cards that way. I haven't carried a credit card balance in two decades because I made a willful decision early in my career not to buy things I can't afford. I sacrificed a lot in living standards compared to my peers long ago so as to be completely out of debt and able to pay cash for what I want today. I have no sympathy whatsoever for people who could not restrain their desires enough to follow the same path. I resent the open promotion of class envy from those who have been financially reckless toward those who have not. I also resent my tax dollars going to subsidize the bad loans of financial fools. They should have to suffer the consequences of their decisions.

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--
Tom

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You, and a lot of folks in this thread, are missing the point that the OP is making.

He was led to believe he had a deal on a purchase that guaranteed no interest for 12 months. But because of the "we can change the rates at any time without notice" clause in the credit card agreement, that interest free year was false. It's good to alert people who might take these retailer come-ons seriously what they are letting themselves in for.

No matter what the credit card company did, BestBuy was complicit in advertising the deal without revealing that it could be switched without notice.

I'm astonished that they can get away with it.

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They get away with it because the banks TELL you that's what they can do in the small print. It really does pay to read the small print. If you don't understand the contract, don't sign it. Simple, really.

I don't usually buy anything at all at Best Buy, but my next time near one, I'll pick up the printer cable I need. Sort of like taking an antacid to counteract all the whining in this thread.

--
Charlie Self
Meandering Mind: http://charlie-self.blogspot.com/
http://www.charlieselfonline.com

Wick Smith said:

Always a few Horatio Algers in the discussion who want to make this a conversation about virtue.

I also don't carry any credit card debt, but there is going to be a blow-up like the mortgage crisis if credit card companies feel they can suddnely raise rates by double digits. People have a right to expect that interest rates should not go up so precipitously. For some of the people here who are cricisizing anyone who uses credit to buy something, consider mortgages. Should everyone wait to buy a house until they have the full purchase price? Who would benefit from that?

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Again, apples and oranges.

There is a reason why a credit allowed to purchase real estate is called mortgage. The ownership, and resulting firm colateral, rests with the lender, not the purchaser.

As far as credit card "loans " are concerned, they are based on a broad risk assessment and assumption of some prudence on the part of a borrower, with little daily control over cardholder spendings. This is high risk lending which is reflected in rates.
Rgds

Wick Smith said:

Marcamera said:

What would you say to customers who pay off their cards before due date in full (using them as a convenience tool only) or pay cash?

Why should they stop buying and supporting a vendor, just because someone else has their beef with them?

Click to expand...

Actually, many credit card companies have expressed their intention to start charging fees to those customers who pay off their balance each month. If you don't want to pay the 30% interest, you'll pay the fee instead. Looks like there will be an upsurge in people paying with cash.

--

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Many premium cards have had annual fees for a long time.
It is the price of not having to carry cash, of security as well.

I would not want to walk around with few thousand dollars in my pocket if there is another easy way.
Rgds

Wick Smith said:

-wick

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Marcamera said:

pinnacle said:

Well, that would be true except for one important distinction. All of those countries are under totalitarian control.

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And do you know why they are under totalitarian control?

Because there is no other way to keep in power a system, socialism/communism, that is against human nature

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The above statement makes no sense whatsoever.

Member said:

Member said:

None of them are countries in which you can openly criticize the system of > government. Each of those countries have ruling governments which claim > socialist underpinnings, but upon inspection they are actually all authoritarian > systems.

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You confuse economic with political descriptions.

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They are inextricably interconnected in the context in which we are in discussion. You aren't well versed enough in this area to comment with any real value.

Member said:

Member said:

You would have to look to Europe to see a few systems of government that > have a kind of a socialist system in practice.

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Nonsense, they have political parties leaning to the left but in full support of the economic system they operate within - capitalism.

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Your above comment flies in the face of your previous comment about distinctions between politics and economics. Which is it...interconnected or completely separated? Never mind. You have no idea what to do with that question. It is rhetorical.

Member said:

Again, you confuse economy with politics.

Member said:

It has been interesting to witness over the years so many people referring to > countries like the USSR, China, and Cuba as socialist governments when the > actual ruling elements have been ruthless dictators and small groups of people > that rule by the use of fear and oppression.

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Socialism and communism breed dictatorship, they are systems that have ben imposed on people through regulations, restrictions on private enterprise, taxes, elimination of opposition.

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Oh...so I suppose the Russian revolution was a bunch of regulators run amok? There are a whole lot of dead people that are a testament to what really happened. The state seized the private assets at gun point. They didn't simply restrict private enterprise.

Mao's army seized assets and control of production, it didn't tip toe in with oppressive regulation to take control. A soldier put a gun to a farmer's chest and said this land belongs to the people. Even the soldier was duped by the force of Mao's army and thirst for power.

Member said:

Member said:

When you hear much of the nonsense about where socialism has failed, it > makes you shake your head as you realize that socialism was never the system > > in power in the first place. They somehow forget that Stalin, Castro, Mao, > Khrushchev, Chou En Lai, and Chavez ruled or are ruling with an iron fist. The > people that use those countries as examples rarely want to let go of their > reference to those countries because their arguments against the big bad > gorilla (socialism) lose their impetus.

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I think you should stick to credit card subject. You have no idea what you are > talking about. You turn the result into cause.

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Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

Member said:

Care to answer this: Why , despite all the shortcommings of capitalism, there are millions of people dreaming of emigrating to the West from socialist countries, many succesfully.

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What true socialist countries are they migrating from? Name one.

Member said:

Has there ever been massive migration from a capitalist country to a socialist one?

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Again I ask, what country is truly socialist that anyone could or can migrate from?

Member said:

Wake up, this is real world we are living in.

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Cute little cliche, but, having no foundation in fact.

Dan

Member said:

Rgds

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I remember being shocked when I first heard this. Do you know what a credit card deadbeat is?

No, it's not someone with a balance who is unable or unwilling to pay. Nope. It's someone who pays off the balance every month, thwarting the banks' desire to charge interest.

I found this out when the credit card company I used for its frequent flier mile program shortened the pay period on me because I paid them off each time. You try to do everything right, but wham, you're a deadbeat!

I imagine the monthly charge will be a reaction to the same thing.

http://newledger.com/2009/05/this-story-will-have-legs-congress-takes-aim-at-credit-deadbeats/

--
http://www.pbase.com/soenda

They are not predatory I think, you're the one that put yourself through this mess in the first place. Stop spending what you don't have and you will appreciate it every day.

pinnacle said:

pinnacle said:

And do you know why they are under totalitarian control?

Because there is no other way to keep in power a system, socialism/communism, that is against human nature

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The above statement makes no sense whatsoever.

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To you perhaps it does not. It is human nature to excell, advance, grow, look for better life, all impossible under the socialist/communist mantra of equal means and equal needs.

pinnacle said:

pinnacle said:

You confuse economic with political descriptions.

Click to expand...

They are inextricably interconnected in the context in which we are in > discussion. You aren't well versed enough in this area to comment with any real > value.

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O.K., read on

pinnacle said:

pinnacle said:

pinnacle said:

You would have to look to Europe to see a few systems of government that > have a kind of a socialist system in practice.

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Nonsense, they have political parties leaning to the left but in full support of the economic system they operate within - capitalism.

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pinnacle said:

Your above comment flies in the face of your previous comment about distinctions between politics and economics. Which is it...interconnected or completely separated? Never mind. You have no idea what to do with that question. It is rhetorical.

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It is your question, not mine.
Here, I'll give you an example of totalitarian control in capitalism: Hitler

Here is another one: Franco

You provided names in socialist countries.
See? Totallitarism is not exclusive to one economic system or another.

pinnacle said:

pinnacle said:

Again, you confuse economy with politics.

pinnacle said:

It has been interesting to witness over the years so many people referring to > countries like the USSR, China, and Cuba as socialist governments when the > actual ruling elements have been ruthless dictators and small groups of people > that rule by the use of fear and oppression.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

What true socialist countries are they migrating from? Name one.

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I will name you a few, when they were run by socialist, and you look up the migration data:
Czechoslovakia
Hungary
Poland
Romania
Cuba

You will have millions going one way, few hundred, if that going to those countries when they were sociialist/communist

Dan, I think we have to stop here, we have hijacked the thread too far off topic, it is not even remotely related to photography now. I am as guilty as few others here.
Feel free to respond but that is it for me.
Rgds

Soenda said:

I remember being shocked when I first heard this. Do you know what a credit card deadbeat is?

No, it's not someone with a balance who is unable or unwilling to pay. Nope. It's someone who pays off the balance every month, thwarting the banks' desire to charge interest.

I found this out when the credit card company I used for its frequent flier mile program shortened the pay period on me because I paid them off each time. You try to do everything right, but wham, you're a deadbeat!

I imagine the monthly charge will be a reaction to the same thing.

Click to expand...

Not unusual behavior for a business. Verizon wasn't happy with the way we dealt with two phone lines in here, with one used for long distance, the other not. They used to charge us $5.00 a month for NOT making long distance calls on that line. Needless to say, we no longer have that line, just the pre-paid long distance line where we are supposedly free to call anywhere in the U.S. and Canada with no extra charge--they sock us pretty nicely to get that service, of course. Five bucks ain't much money these days, but I'd far rather have it in my pocket than a business's pocket as a service charge for not using one of their services.

Business today has become something very close to legalized theft, IMO.

--
Charlie Self
Meandering Mind: http://charlie-self.blogspot.com/
http://www.charlieselfonline.com

dw1338 said:

They are not predatory I think, you're the one that put yourself through this mess in the first place. Stop spending what you don't have and you will appreciate it every day.

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Good grief. They are predatory. Over the past 5-1/2 decades, we've become accustomed to using bank credit cards, and store credit cards for many purchases we might otherwise pay cash for. The banks do their best to keep us in that position, offering all sorts of favors and treats, about like enticing a child to behave itself.

I recall the first time I saw a business credit card: I was working at an Esso station, in Cross River, NY. We had just gotten a card machine, and my boss showed me how to use it. What a PITA for us, but a boon for the customer, who paid $.28.9 for a gallon of regular and paid no interest on that Esso credit card.

IIRC, at the time the only cards usable in stores were Diner's Club and American Express, with DC far and away the leader. Most uses were for businesses, meals in restaurants and travel, providing excellent record keeping, and, again IIRC, no interest to the customer (this is before business classed us all as "consumers"), but a fee to the business, and an annual fee to the card holder.

Things have changed. We'd had more than 55 years to get used to the credit cards, and most of us would have a hard time giving them up. I'll be traveling later this month, by train and rental car. The thought of having to carry enough cash with me to satiate the car rental company's need for security is not a pleasant one. One miserable MasterCard, though, does the trick. We'll be home long before the bills arrive, so it will be paid close to immediately, but that hasn't always been the case.

Credit cards are nearly indispensable these days. Issuing banks are not, at least as credit card issuers.

--
Charlie Self
Meandering Mind: http://charlie-self.blogspot.com/
http://www.charlieselfonline.com

Marcamera said:

pinnacle said:

Member said:

And do you know why they are under totalitarian control?

Because there is no other way to keep in power a system, socialism/communism, that is against human nature

Click to expand...

The above statement makes no sense whatsoever.

Click to expand...

To you perhaps it does not. It is human nature to excell, advance, grow, look for better life, all impossible under the socialist/communist mantra of equal means and equal needs.

Click to expand...

That's not the way socialism plays out in the contemporary world. In the US we have Medicare, Medicaid, public funding of primary and secondary education, unemployment benefits, and other services supported by taxes and overseen by the government. Just try and take Medicare or Social Security away from the people depending on them. They like the programs just fine, except they'd like more money flowing into them.

Member said:

Member said:

Member said:

You confuse economic with political descriptions.

Click to expand...

They are inextricably interconnected in the context in which we are in > discussion. You aren't well versed enough in this area to comment with any real > value.

Click to expand...

O.K., read on

Member said:

Member said:

Member said:

You would have to look to Europe to see a few systems of government that > have a kind of a socialist system in practice.

Click to expand...

Nonsense, they have political parties leaning to the left but in full support of the economic system they operate within - capitalism.

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You are simply wrong. They all have Social Democratic political parties, they levy higher taxes than the US and spend it on entitlement programs.

Member said:

Member said:

Your above comment flies in the face of your previous comment about distinctions between politics and economics. Which is it...interconnected or completely separated? Never mind. You have no idea what to do with that question. It is rhetorical.

Click to expand...

It is your question, not mine.
Here, I'll give you an example of totalitarian control in capitalism: Hitler

Here is another one: Franco

You provided names in socialist countries.
See? Totallitarism is not exclusive to one economic system or another.

Member said:

Member said:

Again, you confuse economy with politics.

Member said:

It has been interesting to witness over the years so many people referring to > countries like the USSR, China, and Cuba as socialist governments when the > actual ruling elements have been ruthless dictators and small groups of people > that rule by the use of fear and oppression.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

What true socialist countries are they migrating from? Name one.

Click to expand...

I will name you a few, when they were run by socialist, and you look up the migration data:
Czechoslovakia
Hungary
Poland
Romania
Cuba

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The Eastern Europeans are flocking to so-called socialist Western European countries like the Netherlands, Germany, Belgium, etc. Those are countries where all are insured (health insurance is required by law in the Netherlands). Taxes are sky high in comparison to the US, mainly to provide benefits. There are socialist parties among the various coalition governments---communist parties too, for that matter.

I don't think that you really understand what modern socialism is in practice. People still own businesses. Some get rich, some get by. Education is better funded. So are public transportation, pollution control measures, retirement benefits. There are price supports (aren't supposed to be, but they're there) for farmers, tax incentives for businesses. Mental health, nursing homes, even home nurses for new mothers.

The governments are democratically elected, but the governments are more responsive to people's needs than in the US. Just a fraction of the homelessness; crime is lower. The quality of life is higher for a greater percentage of the population. They system isn't perfect, but it's anything but totalitarian. In fact, I'd say that the individual is accorded more dignity there.

Your conclusion that initiative suffers is way off base.

Member said:

You will have millions going one way, few hundred, if that going to those countries when they were sociialist/communist

Dan, I think we have to stop here, we have hijacked the thread too far off topic, it is not even remotely related to photography now. I am as guilty as few others here.
Feel free to respond but that is it for me.
Rgds

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--
http://www.pbase.com/soenda

Here are some of my favorites, some taken from the articles that appeared last spring when new legislation was adopted to regulate credit cards.

Some years ago the vet offered us an on-the-spot approval for a credit card when our dog was found to have cancer. Get this: The sky-high interest was compounded daily, not once, but TWICE. We changed vets.

Interest rates above 20 percent---that's predatory in my book. Usury laws used to kick in way lower than that.

Being able to change the terms of credit without notice or consent.

Upping your VISA rate because a utility bill was late.

Knocking your credit rating down because you open a store credit card.

Increasing your interest because there have been several inquiries to the rating agencies over a given period of time.

The refusal of the credit card industry to get serious about identity theft.

Jeesh---these all seem pretty predatory to me. Add to that the fact that the financial services industry has the largest budget and greatest number of lobbyists than all other interest groups. The private consumer has to watch out or be ruined.
--
http://www.pbase.com/soenda

Soenda said:

I don't think that you really understand what modern socialism is in practice. People still own businesses. Some get rich, some get by. Education is better funded. So are public transportation, pollution control measures, retirement benefits. There are price supports (aren't supposed to be, but they're there) for farmers, tax incentives for businesses. Mental health, nursing homes, even home nurses for new mothers.

The governments are democratically elected, but the governments are more responsive to people's needs than in the US. Just a fraction of the homelessness; crime is lower. The quality of life is higher for a greater percentage of the population. They system isn't perfect, but it's anything but totalitarian. In fact, I'd say that the individual is accorded more dignity there.

Your conclusion that initiative suffers is way off base.

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Soenda,
I enjoy reading your balanced posts most of the time.

There are no views really on what socialism is. It is what it is, a system with nationally owned industries, nationally run services, deprived of private enterprise.

You may bend your "modern socialism" characterisations whichever way you like, you may cite Social Democrats running some countries, but that is not socialism. It is humanized capitalism, or whatever you want to add as an adjective to capitalism.

There is no country in Europe with fully nationalized industries, transportation, and services. There is not one socialist country in Europe. There are countries leaning to the left which means they are more open to social programs, to "distribution of wealth" of rich private individuals and enterprises but still firmly in the capitalist realm. Once they start doing what Chavez has been doing, then they will embark on a path to socialism.

These are the basics and you will not change them by stretching the meaning of the word "socialism" until it becomes meaningless.

My conclusion that initiative suffers in socialist system is not my conclusion.
It is at the roots of the system.

An individual is encouraged to contribute to common good, never to his own directly (unless he cheats).
I have had an experience of living through it, if it matters.
And if you disagree, then you are not talking about socialism.
Rgds

Why on earth do you keep calling communist countries socialist?????

You do know that they are different right? Or maybe you don't!

And more importantly their are many democratic countries that take some of the best socialist ideas and add it to their government policies.

Wow what a great idea... have a democracy and add some of the best policies from other forums of government.

--
'The truth is rarely pure and never simple' Oscar Wilde

springbock said:

Why on earth do you keep calling communist countries socialist?????

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which ones?

you said... "I will name you a few, when they were run by socialist, and you look up the migration data:"
Czechoslovakia
Hungary
Poland
Romania
Cuba

I presumed you were talking about when they were part of the USSR. Cuba is definitely still communist, and did you also not call China socialist?

--
'The truth is rarely pure and never simple' Oscar Wilde

springbock said:

you said... "I will name you a few, when they were run by socialist, and you look up the migration data:"
Czechoslovakia
Hungary
Poland
Romania
Cuba

I presumed you were talking about when they were part of the USSR. Cuba is definitely still communist, and did you also not call China socialist?

Click to expand...

They all purported to be on their way to communism, the next step after socialism.

They were as much communist as W.European countries run by Social Democrats are socialist.

USSR claimed to reach communism, but in fact never did. Sadly, North Korea is probably there.
Rgds
Rgds

That is what I am talking about. If Pinnacle or anyone else buys an item that is advertised at 0% interest, then that is the interest rate at which that item will remain unless the borrower violates the terms of the agreement. That isn't just good business practice - it is the law. A lender can't changes the rules in the middle of the game unless you exlicitly agree to it.

The only time I ever fail to pay off a balance in full is when the lender offers zero or some other artificially low interest rate. I have done this many times and have never ever had to pay higher interest or pay off early to avoid doing so.