Parents sue WalMart over bathtime photos

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I just can't believe everybody is actually defending these parents who put picture of their naked children in the hands of a total stranger.

They're just damn lucky that the clerk wasn't a pervert who went out and sold them on the internet.

They may be "good parents", but they sure are lacking in judgement.
 
Boy, where do I start.

First-off, WalMart and companies like that, you need to mind your own business. You were hired to process pictures--process them, that's it. Mind your own business. You weren't hired to pass off any judgment on how someone should parent their children, if you can't do that then join CPS and take down your store sign.

Second--I hate excessive lawsuits, and I actually tend to support WalMart in general, with regards to understanding capitalism and that they're not evil just for being big and successful. However, WalMart is wrong, and I absolutely support this couple suing them.

Third, to all parents--keep taking photos as you wish to, period. Don't let idiots like an incompetent clerk at a discount store photo lab and an overly aggressive city/police department that thinks it has any business poking their nose into a parent's private life--don't let any of this intimidate you. Maybe an online lab like AdoramaPix or MPix won't be that way; if that's the case, give them your business, and let the likes of WalMart know why. If that doesn't work for you, get a 4x6 printer; with a little shopping around, you can pull-off 10c prints of the 4x6 size. I've done this successfully with my HP Photosmart 325.

Fourth--and this goes out to everybody, the world is not any crazier than it was 25 years ago. You've let the media, America's Most Wanted, To Catch a Predator, and other parents calling you a pervert for having a camera at a public lake define for you that the world has somehow totally become a cesspool for the 3Ps (perverts, pornographers, and pedophiles) in a way like it has never been before. Nonsense. Evil existed long before digital cameras, even before the first-ever cameras of the 1800's. If it was okay for a parent to photograph their children post bathtime 30 years ago, it's no different now in terms of right-wrong. If it was sick then, it's sick now; if it was okay then, it's okay now. It's just fear paralyzing people and turning them into idiots.

Fifth, and this goes to BRJR and others of their kind of thinking--parents don't have to meet with your approval for how to parent their children. If it were up to me, short of REAL abuse (like starving or beating to death) they wouldn't have to answer to some nosey-busy-body governmental agency or police department for how to parent their child either. I don't want or need your advice--or CPS' either--on what is appropriate for MY child, and I stress that-- my child . Not yours, not the government's, but mine (and my wife's). That does not mean that our children are property (like photography equipment), but they are left up to US how to raise, not you, not Barack Obama, and sure as heck not CPS or the state of Arizona.

The short way of putting that goes like this--they say with rights come responsibilities. Well the reverse is also true--with responsibilities come rights. When someone is, say, coach of a college basketball, then unless they're abusing players they get to choose who plays for them, what all the rules are, what the style of play the overall team is, and they don't have to answer to anyone about any of it--again, so long as they're not abusive. It would be ascinine for someone to be held responsible for the success of their team but not allowed to make any decisions about who can play for them, what the structure of play is going to be, the rules, any of that.

Parenting is the same way, but people in society so often want to have it both ways--make the parents responsible for everything but not allow them any authority as the leaders of their home. Balogney. As parents we are responsible for so much of our children's welfare and so forth, it is natural that with those responsibilities comes the RIGHTS to parent them as we please. I may not agree with, say, a mother that lets a child sleep in the same bedroom with her, especially if she's married--that is so unfair to her husband who needs quality time with his wife that he can't possibly get with children in the room--but much more important to me is the understanding that, even if I don't agree with those choices, that is THEIR family and it is none of my blanking business to tell them how to raise their children.

This isn't Cuba, this isn't North Korea or China--as much as some people think it is or even want it to be. If you want to tell the world how to parent chlidren, make your own children and parent them your way. The rest of the world could give a flying "ef--you--see--kay" about your feelings on their parenting style.

I photograph my own children how I please, and nobody--not the government, not friends, and sure as heck not WalMart--has any moral or (as far as I'm concerned) legal right to tell me what they approve of. It's my child, my business--no one else's. Period.

---
LRH
http://www.pbase.com/larrytucaz
{ http://larrytxeast.smugmug.com/ (inactive) }
 
Boy, where do I start.
All you said is well and good, until, that is, you put your business in the public arena and expect us to pick up your garbage as these parents did.

What do you think would've happened to this clerk, for example, if he/she had not reported these parents and they turned out to be child rapists?

These parents may have the right to take whatever pictures they want, but this kid had just as much right to protect him/herself too.
 
To answer your question directly--what if you accuse someone of being a molester, or a rapist, and you've smeared their reputation--but you're wrong. That's just as outrageous as letting a criminal fall through the cracks. Better safe than sorry--I don't think so. That's the mentality a lot of people have, and it's wrong.

Where I come from, you're just as responsible for false accusations as not speaking out and letting a criminal fall through the cracks. There's no difference in wrongness with either one. As far as I am concerned, unless you are willing to take on the responsibility for being wrong and can back up what you're saying, you shut your mouth.

Besides, you can "what if" everything to death, and it doesn't hide the real issue--if I take my photos to WalMart, I'm not asking for them to do anything but print the picture out. Unless you see bombs or grenades stockpiled in a warehouse, just print the picture off and leave the policing to the police. It's not any of your business.

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LRH
http://www.pbase.com/larrytucaz
{ http://larrytxeast.smugmug.com/ (inactive) }
 
Looks like knee-jerk reactions everywhere. The clerk, cops, and the social services. I mean, don't any of them have any lick of sense ? Hope they sue all of them individually. Can't these people make out right from wrong ?

Leswick
 
The push towards to zero tolerance laws by political demagogues leaves no room for your type of sense. I once heard someone aptly refer to zero tolerance as zero common sense. That could not be more accurate.
Looks like knee-jerk reactions everywhere. The clerk, cops, and the social services. I mean, don't any of them have any lick of sense ? Hope they sue all of them individually. Can't these people make out right from wrong ?

Leswick
 
1. I'm glad i was raised in the 60's & 70's. Because my mother and father would be in jail if it were the 2000's for all the butt beatings i got when i did something wrong. They believed in the old passage "spare the rod and spoil the child." So did all our teachers, every teacher had a paddle in the closet and they used them. God forbid someone see that picture of me in the bathtub with my little nakid butt sticking out also......

2. I'm glad i don't have any children. The government isn't doing a very good job raising everyones children from what i'm seeing, I sure as heck wouldn't want them raising mine.

This story is pitiful, as is the times we live in. Unreal.
--
***********************************************************
Rudi - Phounder Of The Phart ... CATS member #100 > ^..^
My Homepage: http://www.pbase.com/rudiman
Favorites: http://www.pbase.com/rudiman/my_favorites
Everything in my galleries, God Made. Its my pleasure to show them.
***********************************************************
 
That's true, until you send someone, including Walmart, their images to print or otherwise process for you; and, said third party decides such images should be reviewed by police. Don't believe me, simply check with your attorney. :-)
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BRJR ....(LOL, some of us are quite satisfied as Hobbyists ..)

 
That's appropriately known as "child abuse". Now days, children can sue their parents for such abuse; and perhaps you can still sue yours, including former teachers that abused you. A "father" was actually shot in a neighborhood not far from mine, when he was seen "butt beating" a child in public, and the shooter thought he was protecting the child by shooting this person that turned out to be the child's father; of course, the shooter was later freed of all charges by the police/prosecutor ----- but, the father is in trouble with social services, and if there are any more "beatings", could have his son taken away from him and raised properly. :-)

--
BRJR ....(LOL, some of us are quite satisfied as Hobbyists ..)


1. I'm glad i was raised in the 60's & 70's. Because my mother and father would be in jail if it were the 2000's for all the butt beatings i got when i did something wrong. They believed in the old passage "spare the rod and spoil the child." So did all our teachers, every teacher had a paddle in the closet and they used them. God forbid someone see that picture of me in the bathtub with my little nakid butt sticking out also......

2. I'm glad i don't have any children. The government isn't doing a very good job raising everyones children from what i'm seeing, I sure as heck wouldn't want them raising mine.

This story is pitiful, as is the times we live in. Unreal.
--
***********************************************************
Rudi - Phounder Of The Phart ... CATS member #100 > ^..^
My Homepage: http://www.pbase.com/rudiman
Favorites: http://www.pbase.com/rudiman/my_favorites
Everything in my galleries, God Made. Its my pleasure to show them.
***********************************************************
 
Boy, where do I start.
All you said is well and good, until, that is, you put your business in the public arena and expect us to pick up your garbage as these parents did.
So despite the fact that they were innocent, you are characterizing the photos as garbage. Your give the impression that, in your heart, you believe pictures taken of naked children by their parents cannot, in the end, really be innocent. Which demonstrates how many of these problems lie in the minds of the moralizing element in society such as yourself.
What do you think would've happened to this clerk, for example, if he/she had not reported these parents and they turned out to be child rapists?
Nothing.
These parents may have the right to take whatever pictures they want, but this kid had just as much right to protect him/herself too.
And doesn't the child deserve to be protected from being torn from his/her parents (who were innocent, remember) with all the trauma and stigma that that involves, and living with the scars that will have been inflicted needlessly and for ever on that family?

No doubt one in every X,000 people I see in the street is a burglar or wife-beater - that doesn't mean I report everyone I see who looks like a criminal just in case he may turn out to be one.

But then many people are in favour of arresting and even torturing every swarthy male with a beard in case he's hatching a bomb plot. So perhaps you are not so unusual, which is very depressing for the future of society.
--
tim
 
Of course you think that's funny BRJR, since apparently you are one of the reasons of fillth why parents can't just be parents without worrying about a busy-body scum of the earth like you poking your nose into other people's business.

Who died and left you in charge of defining child abuse for children you are not in charge of parenting?

People like me can take comfort in knowing that there is a hell, and yes REAL child abusers and molestors who don't repent will burn there--and so will those people for poking their nose where it doesn't belong and undermining the authority of parents everywhere. There is a price to be paid for being nosey, even if that price won't be paid until the afterlife
.

It is because of such people that people write stuff like that one guy wrote, where he's glad he doesn't have children, because communist nazis like YOU are waiting to poke your nose into his business and tell him how he better darn well pay big bucks to clothe his children in the finest of clothes even if he himself has to wear goodwill clothes--but he sure better let you tell him how to parent his children. Maybe, since you're telling him how to raise his children, you're going to pay for those clothes for him? Didn't think so.

I don't blame such people, yet I also applaud those that have the courage to be parents despite busy-bodies like you not minding your own freaking business, thinking it's your job to go around telling people how to parent children you had no hand in creating, raising, or providing for. You think those children love you and the others for "helping?" You're full of yourself if you think they do.

All those parents whom you think you have the right to tell how to parent THEIR children--are you prepared to pay for all their expenses out of your pocket, and raise them yourself on your own time in your home? I thought not. Then do the world a favor, and butt your Pinnochio-sized nose out of it. Or else, one day, your Pinnochio

-sized nose is going to be on the receiving end of someone's fist, and it will serve you right & you will have yourself to thank for it.

---
LRH
http://www.pbase.com/larrytucaz
{ http://larrytxeast.smugmug.com/ (inactive) }
BB 8310
 
Most certainly.

Not only that, my parents did fun things like letting me ride in the back of an open-bed pickup truck at highway speeds--it was fun (c'mon, everything has risks) not just for me but for them too. No one could do anything about it, moreover most people didn't think they should. They considered it a private family affair that was none of their business. You better be on some really backroads now to even think to do it--and cover up your license plates too.

It should still be like the 60s and 70s in that way. Yeah some children died, so what--children can die in almost any environmrnt. Just look at actress Hunter Tylo, her 19 year old had a seizure and fell in the pool at their home & drowned. As rich as they are, with all that money can buy, it still didn't prevent it.

I for one don't do "china doll parenting." I let my children play and have some fun, yes even if there are a few mosquitos outside (so long as it's not a cloud storm full of them). I think making them stay inside all day because 1 single mosquito was spotted--lots of parents do this--is extreme overkill. If they want to "china doll parent" their children that way I respect their right even if I disagree with it--in like manner respect my right thusly to let mine actually enjoy life rather than obsessing over every minscule risk.

I used to go bike-riding with no helmet, no laws inteferring with that at all then. My mother never had to consult with the neighbors about any such matters, and I will tell you this--I don't intend to either, even if it costs me my children. Either I'm the parent or I'm not, in ALL manner of speaking.

What I like is we now live in the boonies, on a private drive with lots of woods with paths, where children can bike-ride to their heart's delight--with no helmet if they please, and no police around watching as well as very little (if any) neighbors at all either. So we do what we want with almost no oversight--which is how it should be everywhere. If I had to have neighbors all around me with BRJR's mentality I'd daily wish for them to be swallowed up by a sinkhole (haha).

---
LRH
http://www.pbase.com/larrytucaz
{ http://larrytxeast.smugmug.com/ (inactive) }
BB 8310
 
The photos are most likely the type the vast majority of parents and grandparents take.
Along with child abusers and perverted relatives.
Now you don't know that to be a fact do you?!

The photos haven't been released for legal reasons mentioned in the video of the story (link in my original post).

If the photos are the innocent type that millions of parents take of their young children each year, heads should roll, someone should pay big to the family for all the damage that has been hurled on them, especially the children.

--
gail ~ http://www.pbase.com/gailb

My XSi/450D BLOG :: http://www.digicamhelp.com/camera-logs/canon-xsi-450d/xsi450d-overall-impressions/
 
................ having these images processed ouside of the home. Possessing photos of nude children in this day and age happens to be a questionable practice and I believe illegal .These people should have been aware of that. The Wal Mart employee simply sent up a red flag. How was he to even know that the kids parents took the photos or that they were taken innocently ?

With all the child abductions , child porn , and child abuses in the news these days it's no wonder everyone is so paranoid.

On the other hand, it's a real shame when it IS done innocently and this sort of thing happens. However , the laws are written to favor the authority and power of the DSS and child service agencies and workers upon a complaint and they will almost always assume a criminal intent and remove the children from the home vs having to find out they were wrong . Personally I feel far too many of these investigators and caseworkers are not qualified yet they have a tremendous amount of power and that is very often abused itself.
 
I couldn't agree more. Of course, there are some very good people in these agencies, but then there are plenty who are not. There are too many stories that show that they can wrongly accuses, miss or overlook things big time.

I recall when I lobbied in Wa, DC on behalf of our large school district. A Cabby drove some of us the Department of Education. As we were pulling up to the front door, he blurted out "This place is scary!"

I knew exactly what he meant. I will never forget those words nor the truth of them.

I couldn't believe some of the folks that sat in those offices making decisions for our school district. I doubt they ever stuck a foot in it or even gave a hoot about it. They made decisions based on some bureaucratic mandate that only a lawyer or politician could understand (oh, wait, most of our U.S. politicans don't read, or aren't given enough time to read, the bills they vote to be made into law).

In any case, in this day an age, this matter a tough issue. However, based on the facts as we know them now, the authorities over reacted and caused irrevocable damage to a family and their young children. They should pay. They should be suspended, just at the mom was.

--
gail ~ http://www.pbase.com/gailb

My XSi/450D BLOG :: http://www.digicamhelp.com/camera-logs/canon-xsi-450d/xsi450d-overall-impressions/
 
The photos are most likely the type the vast majority of parents and grandparents take.
Along with child abusers and perverted relatives.
Or not. You have NO proof that these are the same sorts of photos that child abusers take. If you do, present it.

At least since the Brownie, and quite probably well before, parents have been photographing children in their baths, on rugs with their bare butts in the air, and now, suddenly, when it is easier than ever for true abusers to hide what they're taking, you're claiming the problem is worse.

Proof, please.

--
Charlie Self
Meandering Mind: http://charlie-self.blogspot.com/
http://www.charlieselfonline.com

 
I wonder just how much trouble a guy could get into for changing his daughter's diapers in a WalMart men's room if a clerk came in and saw him.
Probably none. The WalMart men's rooms are equipped with changing tables. Or at least the two that I am familiar with here in the Tucson area. Although that may not be true of all WalMart stores everywhere. Someone else is going to have to make that survey.
Not the point Chips. First, it's a jape. Second, the WalMart stores here all have changing tables...maybe not all, as I've only been in a half dozen or so around the area, but most. Third, one wouldn't assume putting a shot of a naked 18 month old into a package to be printed would bring problems either, though WalMart has the printer. Fourth, I can't test it: my youngest is 35. I'm much closer to the diaper stage than she is. ;)

--
Charlie Self
Meandering Mind: http://charlie-self.blogspot.com/
http://www.charlieselfonline.com

 
Boy, where do I start.
All you said is well and good, until, that is, you put your business in the public arena and expect us to pick up your garbage as these parents did.

What do you think would've happened to this clerk, for example, if he/she had not reported these parents and they turned out to be child rapists?
Probably nothing. As Freddie Prinz once said, "Ees not my yob!" No one appoints an 8 buck an hour clerk as a guardian over some kids he's never seen, or if they do, they have no right whatsoever to expect useful results. The clerk has a job. Making prints. That includes things like stacking the prints as they come out and making sure they're in the right envelopes. Nothing has trained the clerk to make any kind of judgment, informed or otherwise, about child abuse from photographs he glances at and then pulls out to examine.

We do have a society now where parents expect someone else to do it all, as espoused in today's (Sunday, 9/27/09) Washington Post in an essay by a woman bemoaning the fact that her child is now old enough to be a latchkey kid. Actually, she bemoans the lack of programs to take care of these children when they get past a certain age--after school programs for pre-teens and younger teens evidently don't exist. It never seems to occur to such people that making an adjustment in her or her spouse's career so they could be home for a couple hours from 3 p.m. on is THEIR responsibility, not someone else's.

So, no, I don't think the clerk would be obligated to report what he or she judges to be child abuse, any more than he or she is expected to report excessive gore on Halloween costumes worn by children.

Sure, there are people stupid enough to send photos of child abuse or porn to a store for printing, just as there are burglars clumsy, and stupid, enough to drop their wallets at the scene of the crime. It would be interesting to find out just what the percentages of either might be. I might expect some figure down in the .000125 percentile, or lower.

In other words, something that might be disregarded except fo r jokes and TV and blog news glimpses.

--
Charlie Self
Meandering Mind: http://charlie-self.blogspot.com/
http://www.charlieselfonline.com

 
Hi

All I can say is RIGHT ON LARRY !! In the 15+ years that I have worked in Photo Retail, I have seen dozens of photos like were shown in the ABC TV segment. Not ONCE have I ever even thought of calling the police. NOT ONCE !! Why ?? Simple, common (??) sense. Parents like to take photos of their kids being kids. That includes photos of their kids running around in their "birthday suits" or playing in the bathtub. I never worry about "protecting myself". For one thing it is very hard to tell intent just from a set of photos. Had the clerk been thinking, he or she would have considered the context of the photos. In this case, we are told that the photos that caused the uproar were 13 photos taken on different days and in different places that were mixed in with 131 regular vacation shots. Out of those 13 shots, we see 4 shots where the kids are not doing anything sexual at all ! If you think standing in the bathroom wrapped in a towel is a sex act, you have serious issues. I will take the parents word that the remaining 9 photos were of the kids playing in the tub, something I see several times a week. The remaining 131 shots should have clued the clerk (if he/she had been thinking) that these were just regular family photos, and nothing to get bent out of shape over.If I saw a similar order from one of my customers, I would have printed them without batting an eye, and not I wound NOT have called the police. I should also point out that to the best of my understanding, no photofinisher has EVER been held accountable for what they print. If the clerk was worried about being "accountable", he/she could simply refuse to print the photos. Photofinishers are NOT Child Psychologists. We are not expected to be able to determine whether a child is or is not being abused based on the photos we print for a customer (unless of course the customer is stupid enough to ask us to print photos of them committing sexual acts with their children).

I'm sorry but the real problem is that there are people who are ashamed of the fact, that on the day they were born, they were caught in bed with a naked woman.
Roy
Boy, where do I start.
All you said is well and good, until, that is, you put your business in the public arena and expect us to pick up your garbage as these parents did.

What do you think would've happened to this clerk, for example, if he/she had not reported these parents and they turned out to be child rapists?

These parents may have the right to take whatever pictures they want, but this kid had just as much right to protect him/herself too.
 

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