Are all M8 M8.2 Owners Jumping Ship?

No one wants to use lenses that do not perform at the focal length at which they were designed.
I dunno. When I want a 50mm lens on the M8, I just put on a 35. When I want a 35, I just put on a 28. It's gotten to be no big deal. The only time it's a problem is when I know I want a 21. So one of these days I'll get whatever works like a 21. Those Voigtlanders are looking better all the time. ;-)
 
Determining that the 1.3 crop factor is "not desirable" is, in large part, a self-inflicted wound.
No, not self-inflicted at all. Leica did that. A rush to market with a camera that had several issues.
Rush to market? 1.33 wasn't a rush to market "issue". There were other issues that might have been a factor of rush, but the M8 broke new ground with that "not desirable" sensor. I think those "issues" need to be kept separate.

If there had been no M8 with that "not desireable" 1.3 crop factor, when would a FF M8 been on the streets? Now? Not likely. 2010? 2011? Ever?

My belief is that there would have been no FF M9 at all without first a 1.33 M8. There are plenty who claimed that any DRF would be impossible to make. I believed that a FF DRF was still years away.

I might get an M9 in a year or so. But FF will be only one factor of several in that decision. My M8 certainly isn't keeping me from doing anything I'd do with any other DRF -- I've got lenses from 12mm to 90mm.

Is the 1.33 crop hindering photographers, or are they hindered photographers?
 
Is the 1.33 crop hindering photographers, or are they hindered photographers?
You can argue this point all you wish.. I can take good photos with any camera, cropped or not.. but my personal choice is always a camera body with a sensor that does not force my lens to operate in an "apparent" different focal length.

The M8 was welcomed.. I do feel it was rushed as Leica did not discover the IR issues until after it was on the shelves. Proper testing would have discovered it prior to the camera's release. The fix was not well recived but if you wanted accurate color then you had to accept it.

I own and use and M8 but I do NOT like the 1.3 crop factor at all. If you love it, more power to you but please be honest, it was not what we wanted, was it?

Leica saying that a digital RF was not possible, then saying a FF RF was not possible is pretty damning evidence that they had their head in the sand. It had to be pretty embarassing that a company known mainly for printers had to prove Leica wrong on the first count with the Epson RD1. Today, the glut of used M8 and M8.2 cameras showing up for sale and being traded in for an M9 pretty much proves my point... we wanted a FF Digital M body but accepted whatever Leica gave us.

And yes, if the price were the same for the M8 and the M9 everyone knows which camera would be chosen... so to defend a camera based on price rather than the desired performance and specs is really a bit silly.

Keep in mind that I bought my M8 third-hand because of the price issue of used versus new.... and from the day I got it I wanted it to be full frame. That has not changed one bit.

--
Jim Radcliffe
http://www.boxedlight.com
http://www.oceona.com

The ability to 'see' the shot is more important than the gear used to capture it.
 
No one wants to use lenses that do not perform at the focal length at which they were designed.
I dunno. When I want a 50mm lens on the M8, I just put on a 35. When I want a 35, I just put on a 28. It's gotten to be no big deal. The only time it's a problem is when I know I want a 21. So one of these days I'll get whatever works like a 21. Those Voigtlanders are looking better all the time. ;-)
Yep, you're doing exactly what I and everyone else who owns an M8 must do.. but the point is... Wouldn't you prefer to grab a 50 when you want a 50?

--
Jim Radcliffe
http://www.boxedlight.com
http://www.oceona.com

The ability to 'see' the shot is more important than the gear used to capture it.
 
I have the Seiko/Epson RD-1 digital rangefinder and an M5 and 2 FSU Barnack cameras. My RD-1 is a 6mp 1.5 crop sensor camera...and I love it. My 28mm is wide enough (@42mm on ff) and my 35mm is also nice (@52mm on ff) and my 50mm are also useable (@75mm on ff). I also have a 90mm and 135mm. Believe me the 90 becomes a 135mm and the 135 becomes a 200m lens. So I really am happy with the RD-1 and my Leitz lenses.

Yes and of course I get FF when I use my M5 and Barnack style film cameras. I feel the 28 is very wide and the 35mm is also wide enough on FF.

BTW I also have a Canon 1Ds MKII and the film EOS 1V and EOS 7N film cameras and many "L" primes and zooms. I am not overly worried that my RD-1 is a 1.5 crop sensor. After all I also have 4 crop sensor Canon bodies 20D, 350XT, 300D and XSi and they work very well with the "L" lenses.

Remember 35mm film was really half of a movie camera film frame. Oskar Barnack of Leica just cut the movie film in half to arrive at the 35mm film format to use in the cameras that he created. He did this to have a small portable camera that would be easy for him to walk around with. That's it. the reason why we have 35mm film cameras. So the reference to a digital FF camera that emulates the 35mm film cameras is now in proper perspective, I would think.

BTW, the small size and extream portability is in my opinion a very important aspect of the rangefiner camera.
Looking all over ebay for possible more items, to fit my new M6, I was shocked by the amount of "as new", "just upgraded to 8.2 spec at Leica", "barely used" M8s.

I too was shocked by the prices, they seem to sell/ or not seem to sell. I saw them sell as low as 2000,- EUR !!!

It surely is tempting, to buy a used M8 now. But I will stand strong for a full frame purchase in some distant future.
When I bought my M8 about eighteen months ago, I firmly believed (or hoped!) it might be one of the few digital cameras that did not lose its value. I reached this conclusion after seeing the way the Epson RD-1 held its value due to lack of competition.

Seems I was wrong. The M8.2 devalued it, and the M9 has kicked it into touch. Now, with so many used M8s and M8.2s on the market, the price will almost certainly drop further.

Even the high cost of the M9 won't make much difference to the selling prices of used M8s - unless of course the M9 suffers a steep price rise at some future date, and becomes totally unaffordable - as opposed to relatively unaffordable - LOL!

But your last bit about waiting to get a full-frame M says it all - rightly or wrongly, that's what most M users want. The M8/M8.2 are seen as flawed cameras - not 'real' M bodies.
A better 35 mm scanner seems as a better improvement of quality to me at the moment. You can buy the best Coolscan with two M film bodies of choice and still not scratch the M9 price!
I agree - film is definitely an option. Scanned on something of Coolscan quality, you can get fabulous tonality from film that even good digital struggles to equal.

J M Hughes
--
Life as an artist has had some unusual times to say the least.
visit my web site http://www.flickr.com/photos/artist_eyes/
Remember to click on 'All Sizes' for better viewing.
Artist Eyes
 
I pretty much felt the same way, until Nikon finally came out with FF (D3) and I purchased one, and subsequently a D700, as well. Now, with the exception of long telephoto and macro/micro lenses, I prefer using my lenses on an FF Digital Body. And, remember as with Leica, Nikon was somewhat late in getting an FF digital body, too. You know, had technology permitted it, we would never have had B&W film/cameras (except, possibly for certain uses), or crop sensor cameras, in the first place. :-)

--
BRJR ....(LOL, some of us are quite satisfied as Hobbyists ..)


Two words says it all... Full Frame.

No one wants to use lenses that do not perform at the focal length at which they were designed .

Yes the lenses still perform but a 1.3 crop factor is not desirable .
(Emphasis mine...)

I think that's a gross generalization. A lens is just glass, metal, plastic, and grease. I have about a dozen lenses I can use on my M8. I don't worry about making them work the way they did on FF. I worry about making them work the way they should with the camera I happen to be shooting with (M8 or M6). The three lenses I use the most are a Zeiss 25, a 35mm Summicron ASPH, and a 50mm Summilux pre-ASPH.

When thinking about the M9 I realize that I'd miss the 50mm in particular. I rarely used it when I had a pair of M6s, but I use it quite a bit with the M8. (I guess I could crop M9 photos taken with a 50mm, but then the camera wouldn't be performing as designed .)

Beyond those three, a new C/V 15mm gets me into a nice wide FOV, and I have a 75mm C/V I can use when needed.

Determining that the 1.3 crop factor is "not desirable" is, in large part, a self-inflicted wound.
 
Remember 35mm film was really half of a movie camera film frame. Oskar Barnack of Leica just cut the movie film in half to arrive at the 35mm film format to use in the cameras that he created. He did this to have a small portable camera that would be easy for him to walk around with. That's it. the reason why we have 35mm film cameras. So the reference to a digital FF camera that emulates the 35mm film cameras is now in proper perspective, I would think.
Uh...History. The 24mm x 36mm frame that Barnack used was called "double frame" for a reason. It uses two 35mm mopic frames. Remember mopic film runs vertically (with few exceptions), and Barnack turned the film sideways for his camera. For some reason he picked the 2:3 ratio, but at least that made the frames consistent with pre-flashed frame numbers on the film.

Half-frame (such as the Olympus Pen and others) is, in the older terminology, single frame.

What that does to your "now in proper perspective" theory -- I have no idea -- but it didn't really make sense the other way either. ;-)
 
And I will guarantee you that given a choice between a FF M and cropped sensor M 9 out of 10 photographers will take the FF M.
If the price were the same, then of course you're correct.

But the price isn't the same.
I don't think that argument works. A FF DSLR is usually double or treble (at least) the cost of the cheapest DSLR in the range. When the difference between 1.3x and FF is more like 10% then most people will stump the difference. After all if you can afford £4000 for an M8 it's no big deal to spend £4500 on an M9.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/photovalve
 
You can argue this point all you wish.. I can take good photos with any camera, cropped or not.. but my personal choice is always a camera body with a sensor that does not force my lens to operate in an "apparent" different focal length.
This baffles me. A lens behaves like it behaves. What is "acceptable" is truly a matter of personal choice. Because it produces a different FOV in different sensor/film formats is just a matter of fact. An 80mm lens on a 6x6 doesn't act like one on a 2 1/4 x 3 1/4. Or on 35mm FF, APS-C, 4/3, half frame, or 16mm mopic. My 50mm lens on the M8 behaves exactly as a 50mm behaves on an M8. Luckily, I still possess the faculties to select the lens I need depending upon the format in use -- apparently despite 45 years of bad 35mm habits. It's a context issue.
The M8 was welcomed.. I do feel it was rushed as Leica did not discover the IR issues until after it was on the shelves. Proper testing would have discovered it prior to the camera's release. The fix was not well received but if you wanted accurate color then you had to accept it.
No argument with the rush -- it just doesn't happen to apply to the size of the sensor.

IR? You betcha. A reference to helicoids and canines is appropriate for that blunder. But, as we are seeing results from the M9 when compared to results from DSLRs, it seems that there is no single "correct" answer to the IR question. It looks like all digital cameras have something going on, and different decisions made with respect to filters, firmware, etc.
I own and use and M8 but I do NOT like the 1.3 crop factor at all. If you love it, more power to you but please be honest, it was not what we wanted, was it?
What's this "we" stuff. If I didn't want it, I wouldn't have bought it new, nor paid for the upgrades. I'm not lusting after an M9 -- regardless of whether I buy one in the future or not. Frankly, I find the X1 more interesting.
Leica saying that a digital RF was not possible, then saying a FF RF was not possible is pretty damning evidence that they had their head in the sand. It had to be pretty embarrassing that a company known mainly for printers had to prove Leica wrong on the first count with the Epson RD1. Today, the glut of used M8 and M8.2 cameras showing up for sale and being traded in for an M9 pretty much proves my point... we wanted a FF Digital M body but accepted whatever Leica gave us.
A month old trend line in used prices is hardly the definitive glut. Sure prices are going to drop. The question is where they hold (some dealers expect them to reach a level and hold steady for a long time). Intelligent photographers may realize that once the used M8 market stabilizes, filters and the crop factor are not barriers. The next era of the M8 secondary market has not formed yet.
And yes, if the price were the same for the M8 and the M9 everyone knows which camera would be chosen... so to defend a camera based on price rather than the desired performance and specs is really a bit silly.
Well Golly. What world are we living in? There IS a difference between the price of an M9, new M8.2s, and used M8s. Defending -- or more correctly choosing -- a camera with price factored in is not silly. And if turns out there is no relevant performance penalty, then it is even less silly. Attacking a camera (is that even possible?) because it isn't what you want, or wasn't even available when you bought a camera isn't silly either. But it is rather pointless.
 
And I will guarantee you that given a choice between a FF M and cropped sensor M 9 out of 10 photographers will take the FF M.
If the price were the same, then of course you're correct.

But the price isn't the same.
I don't think that argument works. A FF DSLR is usually double or treble (at least) the cost of the cheapest DSLR in the range. When the difference between 1.3x and FF is more like 10% then most people will stump the difference. After all if you can afford £4000 for an M8 it's no big deal to spend £4500 on an M9.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/photovalve
I thought the price difference was larger than that. $5,000 for the M8, $7,000 for the M9.
 
No one wants to use lenses that do not perform at the focal length at which they were designed.
I dunno. When I want a 50mm lens on the M8, I just put on a 35. When I want a 35, I just put on a 28. It's gotten to be no big deal. The only time it's a problem is when I know I want a 21. So one of these days I'll get whatever works like a 21. Those Voigtlanders are looking better all the time. ;-)
Yep, you're doing exactly what I and everyone else who owns an M8 must do.. but the point is... Wouldn't you prefer to grab a 50 when you want a 50?
Yes, but it's not a big deal. Losing the full use of the 21 is more of a big deal for me.
 
Remember 35mm film was really half of a movie camera film frame. Oskar Barnack of Leica just cut the movie film in half to arrive at the 35mm film format to use in the cameras that he created. He did this to have a small portable camera that would be easy for him to walk around with. That's it. the reason why we have 35mm film cameras. So the reference to a digital FF camera that emulates the 35mm film cameras is now in proper perspective, I would think.
Uh...History. The 24mm x 36mm frame that Barnack used was called "double frame" for a reason. It uses two 35mm mopic frames. Remember mopic film runs vertically (with few exceptions), and Barnack turned the film sideways for his camera. For some reason he picked the 2:3 ratio, but at least that made the frames consistent with pre-flashed frame numbers on the film.

Half-frame (such as the Olympus Pen and others) is, in the older terminology, single frame.

What that does to your "now in proper perspective" theory -- I have no idea -- but it didn't really make sense the other way either. ;-)
For some added history, Thomas Edison is said to have asked Eastman Kodak to split their standard 70mm film stock in half and punch sproket holes in it to use in his Moviola machines. So is standard full frame 70mm? You can tell I used medium format in film....LOL

Another story that I read said that the "still" cameras that used moviola film were made to test batches of film for proper lab processing and moved to general picture taking from there. The 3:2 35mm format predated Barnack by a decade.

I'm going to wait for a DRF that uses the 30mm X 45mm sensor frm the S2, so I can have the feel of my Fuji 6X7......now that is at least closer to half Full Frame.
--
Bob
 
I'm going to wait for a DRF that uses the 30mm X 45mm sensor frm the S2, so I can have the feel of my Fuji 6X7......now that is at least closer to half Full Frame.
Geez...I'd have to get a gym membership before I'd consider a DRF that size.
 
You can argue this point all you wish.. I can take good photos with any camera, cropped or not.. but my personal choice is always a camera body with a sensor that does not force my lens to operate in an "apparent" different focal length.
This baffles me. A lens behaves like it behaves. What is "acceptable" is truly a matter of personal choice. Because it produces a different FOV in different sensor/film formats is just a matter of fact. An 80mm lens on a 6x6 doesn't act like one on a 2 1/4 x 3 1/4. Or on 35mm FF, APS-C, 4/3, half frame, or 16mm mopic. My 50mm lens on the M8 behaves exactly as a 50mm behaves on an M8. Luckily, I still possess the faculties to select the lens I need depending upon the format in use -- apparently despite 45 years of bad 35mm habits. It's a context issue.
Confusing justification........... 1 point to Radcliffe
The M8 was welcomed.. I do feel it was rushed as Leica did not discover the IR issues until after it was on the shelves. Proper testing would have discovered it prior to the camera's release. The fix was not well received but if you wanted accurate color then you had to accept it.
No argument with the rush -- it just doesn't happen to apply to the size of the sensor.
Agreed on both points of view. No points.
IR? You betcha. A reference to helicoids and canines is appropriate for that blunder. But, as we are seeing results from the M9 when compared to results from DSLRs, it seems that there is no single "correct" answer to the IR question. It looks like all digital cameras have something going on, and different decisions made with respect to filters, firmware, etc.
... hilicoids and canines... ? Goes back to rushed, I don't see there is a question (or excuse). Even worse than Bill Gates releasing Vista.

Another point to Radcliffe... +2.
I own and use and M8 but I do NOT like the 1.3 crop factor at all. If you love it, more power to you but please be honest, it was not what we wanted, was it?
What's this "we" stuff. If I didn't want it, I wouldn't have bought it new, nor paid for the upgrades. I'm not lusting after an M9 -- regardless of whether I buy one in the future or not. Frankly, I find the X1 more interesting.
Not even interesting. No defense so I should give another point to Radcliffe for the simple fact you're simply defending your investiment (as other M8 owners herein have), but I'll let it slide.

No points.
Leica saying that a digital RF was not possible, then saying a FF RF was not possible is pretty damning evidence that they had their head in the sand. It had to be pretty embarrassing that a company known mainly for printers had to prove Leica wrong on the first count with the Epson RD1. Today, the glut of used M8 and M8.2 cameras showing up for sale and being traded in for an M9 pretty much proves my point... we wanted a FF Digital M body but accepted whatever Leica gave us.
A month old trend line in used prices is hardly the definitive glut. Sure prices are going to drop. The question is where they hold (some dealers expect them to reach a level and hold steady for a long time). Intelligent photographers may realize that once the used M8 market stabilizes, filters and the crop factor are not barriers. The next era of the M8 secondary market has not formed yet.
M8's and '.2's will remain in demand for a long time to come (no doubt some years at least), but I don't expect the prices to hold as long as other Leica's. I do agree these were Leica's test waters and they are what they are. Imperfect Leica's. Not the first time in a long history, probably not the last. I for one am seriously thankful Leica stayed the course with digital. They surely could have just passed (I've heard almost did) the digital wave altogether and let all this slip away.

1 point to me. lol.
And yes, if the price were the same for the M8 and the M9 everyone knows which camera would be chosen... so to defend a camera based on price rather than the desired performance and specs is really a bit silly.
Well Golly. What world are we living in? There IS a difference between the price of an M9, new M8.2s, and used M8s. Defending -- or more correctly choosing -- a camera with price factored in is not silly. And if turns out there is no relevant performance penalty, then it is even less silly. Attacking a camera (is that even possible?) because it isn't what you want, or wasn't even available when you bought a camera isn't silly either. But it is rather pointless.
There is no question, even from preliminary reviews, there is a serious performance difference. The M9 is likely in fact the best digital camera EVER produced.

Radcliffe +1 = +3.

My bet is not that many (percentage wise) even considering a Leica digital M would opt for an 8 even for a significant price savings. I bet in fact many of you would (will) sell your M8 at half to offset your new M9. What is the difference between a $5000 body and a $7000 body. At that level its organic plain peanuts vs. South African cashews. THAT is the world we live in. Even at $4K vs. 7K ... good luck.

I'd look for the price of the M8 to drop significantly possibly for the first time in Leica history.

I'm not sure how to call this, but I'll give a point to Mr. Clark (though good luck in the aftermarket).

Total = Radcliffe +2.

Me, my first M will be an M9, no question.

--



'There ain't no life nowhere' ~ Jimi Hendrix
 
Total = Radcliffe +2.

Me, my first M will be an M9, no question.
Yada, yada, yada.

Fun scoring from the East German judge, who clearly stated a bias. But the bias caused the results to be tossed out and the judge scheduled for retraining. Sorry.

Just consider a few points.

-- I too was swept up in that first wave of M9 longing. But I did some fast thinking and before the wave got too far, I flipped my board back and paddled out again. The problem was that from the standpoint of lenses, I've come to prefer much of the performance characteristics of the 1.33 crop. Compared to my previous film RF shooting (C/Vs and Leica) I find that I much prefer a 50mm lens on the M8 -- based on how much I use it (barely at all with film). What I'd miss the most is the FOV with the 25mm Zeiss. FOV a teeny bit shorter than 35mm on FF, it is my usual M8 carry lens. The 25mm is wicked sharp and I like the contrast. I'm not sure I've seen anything that I'd want to replace it with -- even my 35mm Summicron ASPH. Out of the dozen M-mount lenses I own, for some reason the 3 lens (25/35/50) or 5 lens (15/25/35/50/75) sets I carry into the field just seem to work well on the M8. What should I listen to when considering a hardware purchase? Longing and M8 frustration? Or experience? (This may have confused you, but the lenses behave on a camera body the way they behave. They don't know that they were designed to cover a different sensor or film format. They are just glass, metal, plastic, and grease.)

-- Even with my bunch of current lenses, I'm not sure what kind of shifts and purchases I'd need to make to support an M9. We don't have good comparative tests between the same lenses on the M8 and M9 (Sean Reid wants to do this, but he has at least two day jobs to juggle and it might take some time). To assume the same or better performance on the M9 would be a mistake. Therefore, no need to jump in or out of any ships.

-- The helicoid and canine reference has to do with a screw and a pooch...Which Leica did with the IR issue.

-- There is a difference between serious performance differences, and significant performance difference. There is the ISO/noise thing, and the megapixel thing. Those play differently for different users. The statement "The M9 is likely in fact the best digital camera EVER produced" is, of course, rubbish. It is good...Very good, in fact. But the M9 may not be better that some other digital cameras already on the market (which have real world track records) in several significant performance areas.

-- Aftermarket? If I get an M9, I won't be surprised if I have to pay more out of pocket than when I bought my M8 new, even with an M8u trade-in. But we'll see if some of the dealers know more than some of the folks here when it comes to stability of the secondary market. I can't see any digital Leica holding used value the same as film cameras. On the other hand, a lot of the Leicaphiles are constantly saying "It's the lenses."

Call it a rationalization if you want. My point is that I've explored several decision threads based on actual use of a DRF and have come to some personal conclusions. They are mine, and I don't assume that I can apply them to anyone else. I certainly hope I don't adopt a "we" authority when it comes to what is/was acceptable or not with the M8. You'd have to be pretty pompous to do that and then to cover your tracks with the infamous "agree to disagree" (passive-aggressive?).
 
Now is a great time to purchase a used M8, if you are the market. THe M9 is hot,
--
Or it could be the other way round. I think the shortage of M9s is holding up the prices of the used M8 M8.2s. Once M9s become readily available, I think there's only one way for the price of a used M8. I'm not saying I'm right or you are wrong, it's just a feeling I have
 
Is the 1.33 crop hindering photographers, or are they hindered photographers?
You can argue this point all you wish.. I can take good photos with any camera, cropped or not.. but my personal choice is always a camera body with a sensor that does not force my lens to operate in an "apparent" different focal length.
I can understand that if you had made an investment in to M glass prior to buying an M8, that said if your personal choice is a camera with a sensor that doesn't force your lenses to operate in an apparent different focal lenght then why did you buy an M8 ?
The M8 was welcomed.. I do feel it was rushed as Leica did not discover the IR issues until after it was on the shelves. Proper testing would have discovered it prior to the camera's release. The fix was not well recived but if you wanted accurate color then you had to accept it.
Regardless of what they said at the time I very much doubt that Leica was unware of the IR issue when they released the M8.
I own and use and M8 but I do NOT like the 1.3 crop factor at all. If you love it, more power to you but please be honest, it was not what we wanted, was it?
If people didn't want it then why did they buy it, the option is a Film M and a scanner, it's not like folks shoot a RF for convenience.
Leica saying that a digital RF was not possible, then saying a FF RF was not possible is pretty damning evidence that they had their head in the sand. It had to be pretty embarassing that a company known mainly for printers had to prove Leica wrong on the first count with the Epson RD1. Today, the glut of used M8 and M8.2 cameras showing up for sale and being traded in for an M9 pretty much proves my point... we wanted a FF Digital M body but accepted whatever Leica gave us.

And yes, if the price were the same for the M8 and the M9 everyone knows which camera would be chosen... so to defend a camera based on price rather than the desired performance and specs is really a bit silly.
I'm not sure I follow that, in the UK the M9 is just over twice the price of the M8
and they both will deliver superb quality images.
Keep in mind that I bought my M8 third-hand because of the price issue of used versus new.... and from the day I got it I wanted it to be full frame. That has not changed one bit.
for me the crop factor is irrelevant as prior to getting an M8 I had no M fit lenses, I then bought the lenses which perform how I need them too regardless of weather is says 28, 35 or 50mm on the side of them.

it comes down to want and need, I want to use a DRF and I don't need to spend 5k doing it, all I have to do is to ignore those two digits on the side of my lenses and I'm all set.

Either way I'm quite sure that the M9 will allow for larger printing but I've yet to see it deliver anything that the M8 can't on screen.
--
Jim Radcliffe
http://www.boxedlight.com
http://www.oceona.com

The ability to 'see' the shot is more important than the gear used to capture it.
 
I certainly hope I don't adopt a "we" authority when it comes to what is/was acceptable or not with the M8. You'd have to be pretty pompous to do that and then to cover your tracks with the infamous "agree to disagree" (passive-aggressive?).
I respect your right to disagree.. but if you wish to call me pompous then you have crossed the line. Please, don't be an idiot and starting calling names. It'll come back to haunt you. I guarantee it.

--
Jim Radcliffe
http://www.boxedlight.com
http://www.oceona.com

The ability to 'see' the shot is more important than the gear used to capture it.
 
I can understand that if you had made an investment in to M glass prior to buying an M8, that said if your personal choice is a camera with a sensor that doesn't force your lenses to operate in an apparent different focal lenght then why did you buy an M8 ?
Because I wanted a digital RF.. why is that so hard for some of you to understand? A flawed DRF was better than none. I don't have to like the flaws but I can use the camera. I think I have proven that.. so what is the point of all of this? Are you defending Leica? Are you just a fan? What is your point?

--
Jim Radcliffe
http://www.boxedlight.com
http://www.oceona.com

The ability to 'see' the shot is more important than the gear used to capture it.
 

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