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G11 circled by MFT and APS-C compacts, flaming arrows, G11 out gunned...

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B3369 said:
I have to admit, that i partly agree with what you've written, but I understand where you are coming from. My question to you is, if and when you get the GF1, what will its purpose be?? Just to be a P&S??
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99% of my personal photography was with the Contax T3. It's size was extremely relevant to how I used it. Super sharp lens. FF 35mm film sensor provided DOF results essentially the same as using a larger more expensive camera.

When I dropped my first T3 when shooting one handed while riding a motorcycle it actually survived. The lens housing fell apart, but it was still able to take photos. My S70 fell out of my pocket once as I sat on a toilet and it was broken to the point it could not take photos. It fell 2 feet at 0 M.P.H. But I digress.

As much as I like my S70, G9 and G10 photos I miss the limited DOF provided by the Contax T3. I had switched to the digital compact cameras completely. Upon scanning some T3 35mm negatives I was harshly reminded of the advantages of a FF sensor.

So to me, a GF1 type camera is essentially what I desire to provide the most important images in my life. While I do use it in somewhat of a P&S style, it is my goal that it will be providing the main content of my personal portfolio, the content of any upcoming books, gallery shows, etc.

The primary reason I own a 1Ds or 5D series camera is for jobs. However, the size and design of these cameras is not appropriate for my personal work. Thus, perhaps you can understand my determination and desire for a GF1 type camera with a larger sensor that allows for limited DOF photographs.

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holding out for a high quality FF compact...
 
Your original premise is that the G11 competes directly with the MFT cameras and I don't think that isn't true. I will probably buy a G11 if the advertising turns out to be true, but I don't expect it to perform like either the Olympus or Panasonic MFT cameras. I don't expect to pay $700 for it either. These are two different classes of camera, seperated by 1.7X cost factor. It is like comparing a Toyota with a Lexus.

It has yet to be seen whether Canon made a marketing blunder by not offering a camera that is only a little smaller than a low end Olympus DSLR but costs $200 more and has fewer features. I am not interested at present but you obviously feel differently. We shall soon see how the general market feels about it.
 
My original premise is that some people misguidedly think that the G11 competes with the GF1. Canon might hope that people think that they are in the same league, but they are not.

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holding out for a high quality FF compact...
 
All this bull over sensor size makes you tend to forget what sensor size means, what the advantage is, what you can do that you can't do with small sensors. Larger sensor "generally" equate to lower noise when they have the same pixel count. In other words, the larger the pixels the less noise. Canon by reversing the trend to keep increasing pixel count, may have finally listened to those of us who want to be able to use higher ISO without have to use a lot of noise reduction and thus loosing details in the image.

I decided to go with Canon and the S90 over the Panasonic because of the 28-105 zoom range which for me is more useful than the 24-60mm of Panasonic. Panasonic also has a long history of over aggresive use of noise reduction. Finally, the lens ring system seems to be a dramatic step in faster and easier use of the camera. I am not sure if Panasonic uses their little paddle control but when I tried it I could never get use to it. I hate it even more than Canon's revolving ring of the 4 way button control.

Jerry Schneir

--
Someone has to tell the emperor that he has no clothes
 
DoctorJerry wrote:
Panasonic also has a long history of over aggresive use of noise reduction.

This is true, I returned a Panasonic FZ15 because of the terrible
noise, however with the Panasonic G1 this is not the case.
I shoot a combination RAW/JPG, two shots of the same image
most of the time and the JPGs are surprisingly free of noise,
and usable straight from the camera.
 
ljfinger said:
All of them. Remember, you have to include the accessories (lenses, viewfinder, etc.). If I take the body out of my bag, it won't get much smaller.
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Your 5D body alone dwarfs the M9 in size and the larger lenses for your Canon only add to it. Weight difference is massive too. Following your logic, your 5D is similar in size to a 1000D and the latter similar in size to a G11. Right.
 
Zigsta31 said:
Following your logic, your 5D is similar in size to a 1000D ...
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It is. I have a Rebel as well. Actually, the Rebel takes up more space in some ways, certainly no less.
Zigsta31 said:
and the latter similar in size to a G11.
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No, that isn't the case. The G11 goes flat when it's off. None of the others do including the M9.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
ljfinger said:
Zigsta31 said:
Following your logic, your 5D is similar in size to a 1000D ...
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It is. I have a Rebel as well. Actually, the Rebel takes up more space in some ways, certainly no less.
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Yep and the micro 4/3 cameras are similar too. Glad I still have a good sense of proportions myself at this age.
Lee Jay said:
Lee Jay said:
and the latter similar in size to a G11.
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No, that isn't the case. The G11 goes flat when it's off. None of the others do including the M9.
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If you take the lens off when traveling, it certainly does.

But a superzoom the size of Sony (H series) or Panasonic (FZx8) would be equal in size to the 5D too I guess. :D
 
hiplnsdrftr said:
borisboomboom said:
i'd get rid of all all your canon cameras...just to make a statement.
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I will be selling G10, maybe sell G9 depends on video of GF1 or X1, might sell two S70s and get S90?

Like I said, the 1Ds mark II will be in my cold dead hands (along with my Colt 1911 and my FLH, very full hands!)
--
holding out for a high quality FF compact...
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FLH, way better then G11
 
Zigsta31 said:
ljfinger said:
Zigsta31 said:
Following your logic, your 5D is similar in size to a 1000D ...
Click to expand...
It is. I have a Rebel as well. Actually, the Rebel takes up more space in some ways, certainly no less.
Click to expand...
Yep and the micro 4/3 cameras are similar too. Glad I still have a good sense of proportions myself at this age.
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If it doesn't change the way you carry it, it doesn't matter much if it's a few grams lighter or a few mm smaller.
Zigsta31 said:
Zigsta31 said:
Zigsta31 said:
and the latter similar in size to a G11.
Click to expand...
No, that isn't the case. The G11 goes flat when it's off. None of the others do including the M9.
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If you take the lens off when traveling, it certainly does.
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And leave it at home.
Zigsta31 said:
But a superzoom the size of Sony (H series) or Panasonic (FZx8) would be equal in size to the 5D too I guess. :D
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About. I have one of them too. The difference is, it's small with a huge range. The Micro 4/3 are small with no range, or large with a huge range.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
Haven't you been threatening to jump ship for months because of sensor size? I've seen this sensor size comparison chart at least 3 times that I can remember.

I've been looking at the G11 samples on DPR and have to say the ISO 1600 & 3200 shots are extremely impressive for such a pathetically small sensor. I find it nothing short of amazing what the G10 and G11 can do regardless of the sensor size.

If it's really a case of DOF control (or lack of it) then you should be looking at DSLR's and not P&S cameras. Or maybe the 4/3 format that I know almost nothing about.

You think Canon has dropped the ball. I think Canon has scored a touchdown. Does one cancel out the other?

This was on a Canon website about a year ago but I can't find the link anymore so I'm posting it via my flickr account but credit goes to Canon, I hope they don't mind!



And here's the full-size version (large file warning):

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3520/3952926184_94dcc1d659_o.jpg

I find very little to fault in the G10 IQ and it looks like the G11 will be just as good with improved high ISO noise performance.

There are very few (if any) cameras made by any of the major manufacturers today that would qualify as a "joke". I've enjoyed many of the DPR challenges and find it quite humbling to see absolutely gorgeous images taken with just about any format of digital camera I can think of. And when I look at your chart of the actual sensor sizes I'm gob-smacked by what they can do!
hiplnsdrftr said:
Sorry to say this, because I really "love" my Canon cameras, and it's painful to say this, but wow, could Canon have dropped the ball any harder, or louder?

Panasonic GF1 (mft) and Leica X1 (apsC) both outed on the same day... http://43rumors.com/

Both cameras with a prime lens in the same size range as the G11, granted it has a zoom, and yes, I know the G11 has the zoom, but as I almost never use the zoom, it does not factor as much of an advantage to me.

In Canon's defense I will say, the S90 is truly more compact, and the small size justifies the small sensor. And I might buy a S90 to have a truly compact modern camera.

And, I am so content with my 1Ds mark II and 5D mark II I don't even care what FF cameras Nikon or Sony put out. They can have my 1Ds mark II when they pry it from my cold dead hands as far as I'm concerned.

But the G11? Is it a joke? Are Canon's corporate spies asleep at the wheel? Do they really expect me to shoot with that size of a camera with such a small sensor? I guess they do.

I will be purchasing a GF1 or an X1 and it will be the first non-Canon digital camera I have ever shot. Thats right... ever shot. I have never taken a single photo with a non-Canon digital camera. Never pushed a button that did nt say Canon.

But man, Canon has lost me today, at least in the semi-compact category.

Other than the fact it will not say Canon, my dreams are coming true...



--
holding out for a high quality FF compact...
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I think the new Panasonic pancake lens is so good that the other camera makers will have to play catch up. I would have a tough time buying a G11 when I could have a lens of such high quality and perfect software correction.

Still waiting for raw and a few more photos from the new Canons, but the ones I've seen seem to fall one step short of Canon's usual quality.
 
G11 (and S90) has a Zoom, and can still fit in your pocket. Try to fit in your pocket a GF1 or an EP1 with anything else than a fixed-lenght pancake?
--
Roberto
 
After all is said and than, Canon will sell at least 10 times as many G11 units as Panasonic GF1s.
 
It looks like a pretty decent lens but per DPR CA and distortion are being handled by software in the camera body. So just how good is the lens without the software correction? We can't tell based on the DPR test.

FWIW & off topic: One of the sharpest lenses tested by DPR to date is the EF 50/1.4 on the EOS 1D Mark III. It performs above nyquist at f7.1 across almost the entire image and only just barely falls below nyquist at the extreme edges. And CA is also very low. And all this is without any software correction being done by the body. ;)
Summitron said:
I think the new Panasonic pancake lens is so good that the other camera makers will have to play catch up. I would have a tough time buying a G11 when I could have a lens of such high quality and perfect software correction.

Still waiting for raw and a few more photos from the new Canons, but the ones I've seen seem to fall one step short of Canon's usual quality.
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Thanks hiplnsdrftr for a very good thread. After going back and forth several times I think the I am going to buy one of each of the G-11 and GF1.

I'll have a small versitile camera with good zoom and a large sensor camera with great IQ and DOF control for $1,300. Can't miss!!
--
http://www.pbase.com/hb1840
 
I guess I will hang onto my Canon S70 and my G9, selling the G10 and buying a Panasonic GF1 with the 20mm prime.
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holding out for a high quality FF compact...
 
Macro photos are about the only situation that compact cameras can produce the limited DOF and bokeh that FF sensor cameras readily provide.

Take whatever camera shot that chameleon, stand about 10 feet away from the subject, and you will have a photo with infinite DOF and absolutely no background bokeh.

Granted, focus will not be and issue, because everything will be in focus.

I have never written that I despise Canon cameras. What I have written is that I love my Canon cameras to an irrational degree. My brand loyalty borders on obsessive. I only drive one make of truck. I only buy one brand of computer, one brand of external hard drive, I only drink one beer, I only wear one brand of underwear.

The fact that I will be buying a Panasonic is indicative of how bad Canon has neglected to make progress in the compact camera market.

Up until now, I have never taken a single photo with a non-Canon digital camera. Never pressed a non-Canon button. The simple fact that I will be buying a Panasonic is unbelievable even to myself.
 
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