Kim Letkeman
Forum Pro
Would that be overreaction as a form of comedy?
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F70 wins the 2009 portholing award
- Thread starter xavozin
- Start date
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sometimes you feel that no serious words or ways can convey what you mean adequately and then this way is better..
Xavo
image is the only validation and most of their life isn't real.
modified from Sam Sparro - Black and Gold.
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Xavo
image is the only validation and most of their life isn't real.
modified from Sam Sparro - Black and Gold.
Billx08
Forum Pro
Understood, and I frequently use the same equipment. I more often grab the D90 even though I prefer the D300's better controls. Size matters. My reply wasn't written clearly enough though. The "pining" was for others that don't yet have anything comparable to kungfusion's (and our) gear. The part that referred to you was that I assumed that your heart wasn't given entirely to the F70. Maybe DPR's reviews should use a heart paradigm on their Conclusion pages. Highly Recommended; Recommended; etc. would be replaced by True Love; Infatuation; . . .; Beat It, Bub.
Kim Letkeman
Forum Pro
Ah ... got it ... duh ... yes, that small piece of my heart reserved for fun toys and concert cams was stolen by the F70EXR ... and it served pretty well as a travel cam I think ...
Nyuk nyuk nyuk ... perhaps:
"Slick as snot"
"Pretty Fricken' Decent"
"Dull as dishwater"
"POS"
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i agree it is not the end of the world for a camera that is 200 grams or so to be gripless. The exclusion criterion is definitely the lack of RAW since i use that 100% of the time, i think there is often correlation between lack of RAW and being slick & gripless, remember the canon G7 very glossy but rawless the opposite of G6 before it, now gradually canon reversed that bringing back raw + grip + swivel currently in G11. G7& ixus/elph-series and fuji F-series are indended for snapshooter/consumer/"i care more for slickness of my cam than crispness of my images" crowd, G6 or G11 is for ethousiast serious shooter who just don't want to use heavy complicated DSLRs.
the S-series has RAW but is gigantic and the reason behind its gigantism is the unnecessarily massive zoom, it's way more than i need, and it also hurts the image quality (ultrazoom=CA/PF, the higherthe zoom power and the wider it starts the more the IQ will suffer), some people go as far as using only primes, i will be more moderate and just ask for a zoom that is no higher than 4 to 6x in a rawsumer camera (doesnt fit any current fuji as far as i know).
all mfr's have mssive zooms but they are not the flagship compact. The flagship should be something like F200 EXR, or a much reduced zoom S100/200.
here we strongly disagree, am not sure how much is too much for u and others who think the same . frankly i suspect that some of those who said it looked OK to them (not necessarily you) are just not telling the truth and doing blind defense for fuji. reminds me of how on the OLY SLR forum everybody used to disagree with me that Oly AA filter is too strong until oly themselves recognize it. or how nikon users were in denial of the importance of full frame before nikon introduced the D3.
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Xavo
image is the only validation and most of their life isn't real.
modified from Sam Sparro - Black and Gold.
Kim Letkeman
Forum Pro
Do you really think this line of non-reasoning has any merit at all? I am pushing up on 1500 images and trust me that vignetting shows up very rarely ...
APS-C will live a very long time for several reasons ... lots more pixels on the subject because of the density really helps the wildlife guys ... much cheaper because of size considerations ... easily enough to fully accomplish professional work in any category ... and so on. FF is important .... but not at all critical to success. Skill is far more important.
Strong AA filters are somewhat difficult for jpeg shooters ... but hardly fatal when you can shoot RAW and extract all the detail that is there.
I.e. issues such as these matter to pixel peepers, but are hardly fatal to anyone ...
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... if you think that i went away too far away from the truth when i suspected that some saw the problem but out of fanboyism denied it and defended Fuji.
more than 90% of whats posted on DPR forums has a lot to do with advertising and counter advertising, don't believe me?! just choose any issue were you really think that a manufacturer has got it terribly wrong and you believe that a majority of people agree with u. go to the forum of that mfr and start a poll thread about the issue in question, you'll see that you won't get the majority you expected.
Xavo
image is the only validation and most of their life isn't real.
modified from Sam Sparro - Black and Gold.
more than 90% of whats posted on DPR forums has a lot to do with advertising and counter advertising, don't believe me?! just choose any issue were you really think that a manufacturer has got it terribly wrong and you believe that a majority of people agree with u. go to the forum of that mfr and start a poll thread about the issue in question, you'll see that you won't get the majority you expected.
Xavo
image is the only validation and most of their life isn't real.
modified from Sam Sparro - Black and Gold.
Kim Letkeman
Forum Pro
That's an easy charge to make ... you seem to feel quite special that you can pierce the veil of fan boyism.
There is much fan boyism ... but then many people are simply not as an@l as you seem to want them to be ...
Uh huh ... yawn. People fight over everything here ... that's the point of the place.
No ... over 90% of ad hoc statistics are bull-sh__ ....
In this case, that's because you are wrong.
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Kim Letkeman
Forum Pro
Try to remember that this forum is easily over stimulated ... a wee bit of balance in your assessment will go a long way to ensuring that you don't end up in a storm.
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not a bad camera for those who can appreciate its concept (compact/light-weight ultrazoom or fun zoom as they are called), my friend said that she bought it for that concept and in general got what she wanted.
the build quality is what you'd expect for a camera that costs this much, is made in China and of plastic. Like with all consumer electronics there can occaisionally be QC issues (my friend didn't have something serious), make sure if you aren't lucky to receive a good unit the first time that there can be an easy second time (specially if you buy online, ask what is the return policy of the seller).
the image qulity is ok overall, though it leaves something to be desired at the corners (softness, vignette & CA) sometimes, but you need to take into consideration that you get a sensor (1/2") a bit larger than the ones used in similar cameras from other mfr's (1/2.5" to 1/2.3"), so by the time you crop a little bit to get rid of the bad corners, you'll end up with about the same image area as if your sensor was one of the smaller sizes.
My friend view her images at screen size (no pixelpeep), and even at that size she noticed and didn't like the occaisionally degraded IQ of the corners. to get around this, you can use the 3:2 mode, but that's actually a stupid way because it blocks 1001 alternative ways to deal with croners (maybe your subject is best framed more squarish than 4:3, in that case you better crop left&right instead of top&bottom, may be you want to try SW corner enhancement, may be the corners are not too bad and you want to leave the whole image uncroppped....etc). if the point is that you are easily intimidated by postprocessing software try a simple easy-to-use program, Irfanview for example, it is not only simple but also very effective, has great batch-processing options, you can put 1000 images in a folder and batch-crop them all to specific coordinates (pixel positions) that you choose.
good luck for those who choose this camera!
Xavo
image is the only validation and most of their life isn't real.
modified from Sam Sparro - Black and Gold.
the build quality is what you'd expect for a camera that costs this much, is made in China and of plastic. Like with all consumer electronics there can occaisionally be QC issues (my friend didn't have something serious), make sure if you aren't lucky to receive a good unit the first time that there can be an easy second time (specially if you buy online, ask what is the return policy of the seller).
the image qulity is ok overall, though it leaves something to be desired at the corners (softness, vignette & CA) sometimes, but you need to take into consideration that you get a sensor (1/2") a bit larger than the ones used in similar cameras from other mfr's (1/2.5" to 1/2.3"), so by the time you crop a little bit to get rid of the bad corners, you'll end up with about the same image area as if your sensor was one of the smaller sizes.
My friend view her images at screen size (no pixelpeep), and even at that size she noticed and didn't like the occaisionally degraded IQ of the corners. to get around this, you can use the 3:2 mode, but that's actually a stupid way because it blocks 1001 alternative ways to deal with croners (maybe your subject is best framed more squarish than 4:3, in that case you better crop left&right instead of top&bottom, may be you want to try SW corner enhancement, may be the corners are not too bad and you want to leave the whole image uncroppped....etc). if the point is that you are easily intimidated by postprocessing software try a simple easy-to-use program, Irfanview for example, it is not only simple but also very effective, has great batch-processing options, you can put 1000 images in a folder and batch-crop them all to specific coordinates (pixel positions) that you choose.
good luck for those who choose this camera!
Xavo
image is the only validation and most of their life isn't real.
modified from Sam Sparro - Black and Gold.
Kim Letkeman
Forum Pro
I wonder why it is that the noobs on this forum throw around words like "stupid" so often ... seems overly opinionated and unrefined.
And croner is spelled with a "K" ... one presumes you meant Swedish currency
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I think it is time to be realistic about the challenges faced by any manufacturer in making a superzoom. Even in a DSLR 'vacation lens' the possibility of avoiding distortion, CA, vignetting, and spherical focus at the long end are pretty much insurmountable. Usually about fifteen elements are required - maybe two asphericals and two ED - to get to the 'useable' and reasonably linear level of IQ. Take a look at the reviews of such lenses and you will see how, despite all the engineering prowess available today, only a tradeoff is reached.
Even a 28-80 range kit zoom has to be a wide angle, normal and a tele with the same elements in different positions. The latest of these are down to [or up to!] about 10 - 12 elements and cost retail about $300 - and still often aren't paragons of image virtue. A 'good' 28-280 is maybe $500. I have no idea how many elements are in the F70 lens but I can guarantee it isn't the 15 you usually get in a typical 10x that still has somewhat iffy corners at WA and CA and some non flat plane of focus at the long end. Sure, you could get rid of one problem at the expense of another, but all zooms are a trade off and the ones that cross from wide to tele are making bigger concessions than the tele only or WA only types. This is why the LX3 stopped at 60mm.
Personally, I'm impressed with the fact that Fuji got what it did from something smaller and lighter than an Fxxx. Bravo. Plus it's less expensive and more than competes with anyone else's pocketableish 10X which also have similar lens caveats. I'd bet there are some 10x DSLR aftermarket zooms out there which don't do all that much better and cost as much as the whole F70.
So what do you want Fuji to do? Fifteen elements and $500 and won't go in your pocket and weighs at least half again more? Oh yeah, they make those already. So just how do you propose that Fuji make it better? I think they've already wrung about all there is to get from the sensor and the lens at this cost and size given today's technology, and you can buy in or wait.
Could be a long wait. And no, I don't own one.. yet...but a guy wants to buy my F100...
Even a 28-80 range kit zoom has to be a wide angle, normal and a tele with the same elements in different positions. The latest of these are down to [or up to!] about 10 - 12 elements and cost retail about $300 - and still often aren't paragons of image virtue. A 'good' 28-280 is maybe $500. I have no idea how many elements are in the F70 lens but I can guarantee it isn't the 15 you usually get in a typical 10x that still has somewhat iffy corners at WA and CA and some non flat plane of focus at the long end. Sure, you could get rid of one problem at the expense of another, but all zooms are a trade off and the ones that cross from wide to tele are making bigger concessions than the tele only or WA only types. This is why the LX3 stopped at 60mm.
Personally, I'm impressed with the fact that Fuji got what it did from something smaller and lighter than an Fxxx. Bravo. Plus it's less expensive and more than competes with anyone else's pocketableish 10X which also have similar lens caveats. I'd bet there are some 10x DSLR aftermarket zooms out there which don't do all that much better and cost as much as the whole F70.
So what do you want Fuji to do? Fifteen elements and $500 and won't go in your pocket and weighs at least half again more? Oh yeah, they make those already. So just how do you propose that Fuji make it better? I think they've already wrung about all there is to get from the sensor and the lens at this cost and size given today's technology, and you can buy in or wait.
Could be a long wait. And no, I don't own one.. yet...but a guy wants to buy my F100...
Kim Letkeman
Forum Pro
PixelMinded
Senior Member
Thanks a lot for the review, I know exactly if I want to buy this camera what kind of compromises I have to accept and how to work around them. I certainly would not mind having to crop some images to remove bad corners. If it is impossible to make a camera as small as this + with 10x zoom + 1/2" sensor without having some occaisional corner issues, then it is a good compromise to win these zoom, sensor size & weight specs for the price of a little bit of manageable corner issues. It would still be more attractive camera if they add RAW, which would widen the choices of how to deal with the corners and how to deal with other issues like CA-removal, exposure or white balance corrections ...etc.
Luciano Morpurgo
Leading Member
I'm joining the queue of people here who know what vignetting is on a dslr, and man come on, a 10x lens on a pocket camera - that vignetting you showed is really nothing.
Luc
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Luc
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you're welcome. i too think that adding raw to the F series would make them even better cameras than they are, and regardless of naming it S- or F- series a sort of a RAW-enabled tweener between the two series would be a great idea. the overlap between those who want raw and those who want 14x zooms is not as big as fuji lineup seem to suggest .
Xavo
image is the only validation and most of their life isn't real.
modified from Sam Sparro - Black and Gold.
--
Xavo
image is the only validation and most of their life isn't real.
modified from Sam Sparro - Black and Gold.
one picture is better than 2000 words (whether they are my words or yours).
Xavo
image is the only validation and most of their life isn't real.
modified from Sam Sparro - Black and Gold.
--
Xavo
image is the only validation and most of their life isn't real.
modified from Sam Sparro - Black and Gold.
Luciano Morpurgo
Leading Member
You're assuming that vignetting is an exception in the camera world. The pics you posted aren't anything strange, vignetting just happens and it doesnt depend only on sensor size, lens and aperture.
The first one with a 24-105 f4.0L IS, at 24mm, f4.0:
second one, canon 5D, EF70-200 f2.8L IS, at 200mm, f7.1 :
(just guess how it would be at max aperture)
Vignetting depends on a lot of things - just to make an example I rarely get vignetting at f7.1 with any lens but this example is an exception - depending on some particular light condition.
Luc
So enjoy these pics taken with a canon 5D.
The first one with a 24-105 f4.0L IS, at 24mm, f4.0:
second one, canon 5D, EF70-200 f2.8L IS, at 200mm, f7.1 :
(just guess how it would be at max aperture)
Vignetting depends on a lot of things - just to make an example I rarely get vignetting at f7.1 with any lens but this example is an exception - depending on some particular light condition.
Luc
PixelMinded
Senior Member
1- DSLR's can change their lenses, F70 can't.
2- F70 photo's in question are exemplary photo's from a preview gallery done by well-known professional reviewers, your photo's are not exemplary and your not a well-known professional reviewer.
3- Even ignoring the 2 points above, your second photo has very little vignetting compared to the F70 photo in the OP, and your first photo suspiciously has only one corner severely darkened while all other three corners are fine suggesting either your finger or the lens cap or whatever might have blocked the light at that dark corner or the lens you used suffer from decentering problem (bad copy that needs to be serviced or changed).
I don't know why you and many others before you insist on comparing F70 with DSLRs, vignetting exists even in compacts and it is no shame, specially for a camera that combines what the F70 has: long 10x zoom with a sensor slightly larger than average of its class in a compact body, it is being marketed as "the smallest 10x zoom digital camera", we dont need to deny the truth in order to make it popular, it's going to be popular anyway.
2- F70 photo's in question are exemplary photo's from a preview gallery done by well-known professional reviewers, your photo's are not exemplary and your not a well-known professional reviewer.
3- Even ignoring the 2 points above, your second photo has very little vignetting compared to the F70 photo in the OP, and your first photo suspiciously has only one corner severely darkened while all other three corners are fine suggesting either your finger or the lens cap or whatever might have blocked the light at that dark corner or the lens you used suffer from decentering problem (bad copy that needs to be serviced or changed).
I don't know why you and many others before you insist on comparing F70 with DSLRs, vignetting exists even in compacts and it is no shame, specially for a camera that combines what the F70 has: long 10x zoom with a sensor slightly larger than average of its class in a compact body, it is being marketed as "the smallest 10x zoom digital camera", we dont need to deny the truth in order to make it popular, it's going to be popular anyway.
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