Leica - Made in Germany

Tariq said:

David Hughes said:

Tariq said:

Well, there is a difference between basic raw materials and the precise-artful forming of those raw materials into a finished object isn't there?

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Hi,

The basic raw materials for copper and steel look like lumps of stone and coal etc. So should they be made in Germany or bought in? And how about the leather for straps etc? Should Leica own the farm where the pigs and cows are breed and the tannery etc, etc?

BTW, "Made in ........" was a legal requirement brought in by the USA Govt and (from memory) applied from 1871, which is why it's always in English. The law's changed a bit since then but I bet Leica are still not breaking the law.

Regards, David

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I'm not suggesting that Leica is breaking any laws, just that the label "Made in ..." has lost all relevance in this day and age. That is why other companies now use "Assembled in ...." and "Designed in...."instead of "Made in .......". The difference between say a completely formed camera body, rangefinder mechanism, ect (which IS what is made in Portugal) is very different than the raw magnesium or metal sheets or glass peices used to make these things. Is that difficult to follow?

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I've no problems following it and suggest that you should consider that "making" covers a lot of processes and mostly we are arguing about where to draw the line. If Leica hired someone for a short period to design the software we'd agree it was designed by Leica but if they hire the same man when working for a software firm we say it isn't. It strikes me as a bit of hair splitting.

Equally I see little problem with Leica designing something, issuing a spec. and then sub-contracting the job. If they then check and assemble it, so what?

Regards, David

pcunite said:

Greg Gebhardt said:

You are a troll.

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I am a conversationalist. Expressing opposing thoughts to your own seems to wound you deeply no? You will live a much longer and happier life if you will not feel the need to take a bullet for a company. I am happy to hear your opinion, please keep posting, please don't call me a troll just because you did not start this thread.

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Hmmm,

I never realised, until now, that trolls were the people who started threads. I thought there was more to it...

Regards, David

pcunite said:

Greg Gebhardt said:

You are a troll.

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I am a conversationalist. Expressing opposing thoughts to your own seems to wound you deeply no? You will live a much longer and happier life if you will not feel the need to take a bullet for a company. I am happy to hear your opinion, please keep posting, please don't call me a troll just because you did not start this thread.

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You stated plainly in your OP that you had a problem with Leica stating the M9 is made in Germany. You were you were roundly drubbed for this, and rightly so. And now that your straw man argument went up in flames, you say "No, no! That's not what I meant!". Well you won't get much sympathy around here.

Come on man, have the courage to stand up for your convictions, or at least stand by your own words. Otherwise, you are just another lame troll who can't take the heat.

Jim Radcliffe said:

roger123 said:

"You know the Germans always make good stuff"

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"But you know we can't do this all day.. so, if you order right now, you'll get two M9s for the price of one."

Don't you wish it were true?

--
Jim Radcliffe
http://www.boxedlight.com
http://www.oceona.com

The ability to 'see' the shot is more important than the gear used to capture it.

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It would be funny to see Vince do Leica ads!
--
http://rogerd.smugmug.com
wssa #326

sunhorse said:

You stated plainly in your OP that you had a problem with Leica stating the M9 is made in Germany. You were you were roundly drubbed for this, and rightly so. And now that your straw man argument went up in flames, you say "No, no! That's not what I meant!". Well you won't get much sympathy around here.

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Yes, I have a problem with where the camera was stated as being made. I don't have a problem with where it actually is made. You would never get a passing grade on a dissertation with arguments like these.

pcunite said:

Jim Radcliffe said:

.. it does not matter where the indiviudal parts are made.. only that the finished product functions properly.

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I don't personally care where it is made. I do care about why the outlandish price. I wanted to know why... What makes a manual focus camera so much more expensive? I am curious. What I was told was "Made In Germany". What I discovered (still unsure) was "Designed and Tested in Germany".

Ahh, okay.. the reason for a $7000 manual focus body only camera is because it was designed and tested in Germany? I hope those persons in Solms make a good paycheck every week. I'd like to know someone besides the top brass is getting a good deal in this.

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well ok here goes. Ist leica is a very small camera producer and numbers their annual output in the thousands low thousands. As any good business major will tell you making fewer units usually increases the cost of each unit for many reasons. Less purchasing clout, less efficient use of labor etc.

2 German labor is worlds more expensive than say Thailand or Chine somewhere.(note this does not imply that because its more expensive the labor is better)

3 That one assembly you mentioned the range finder view finder is extremely complex and requires a lot of hand assembly and some very stringent clearances. this assembly is probably the most expensive part of the camera. If any one is interested the Leica range finder is not a simple co-incidence finder but a far more intricate and diffacult to build co-insident and split image finder. Choices of materials and a high level of commitment to fit and finish all add up to a more expensive camera.

Leica is a small company continually on the edge of going under, borrowing capitol to fund the m9 project is far more expensive than big companies who bank roll their one r and d.
hope this helps

sung nee said:

I'm not responding to anyone in particular, just wishing to add something.

These are just some things that spring to mind, I don't know what to think.

I haven't read the whole thread, but has anyone mentioned the firmware? Leica has mentioned the firmware maker several times, but I just can't find it this moment. It might be from France, I don't know, I'm basing my guess on the fact that the best CD interpreters come from France (because it required great creativity).

When Leica moved to Solms, people were worried for several years that the Wetzlar mystique will be lost. Some actually felt it was true.

The M3 was mostly made by Wetzlar houswives in a struggling post-war Germany, to improve their families' livelihood. These housewives took M3's home and assembled them after dinner, on the dinner table. They took them back to the factory to be tested. The Wetzlar men could not do this because their hands were too big.

Made in Germany was not always held in such high esteem. In the 1870's made in Germany was a sign of bad quality. The young German nation made a firm resolution to shed that image and look where it has taken them.

One story was that during WW2 the German machine guns were so much better than the American ones that the American soldiers used the captured German machine guns instead of their own.

In the 1960's American salesmen threw brand new Leica's at a wall, and stood on them, to show the quality to their customers.

The Leica R3 to R7 were all made by Minolta for Leica (except some R4's), but QC'd by Leica. Apparently the rejection rate was 80%! And when interviewed, the QC guy actually said "Well, 20% got through, didn't it?". So I think assembled and tested in Germany mean something.

I suppose I think made in Germany really mean something, it's not just a mystique.

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It is my understanding that the only part of the r3 through r whatever that minolta made was the body castings. The shutter was a joint venture with copal known as the Leitz copal square shutter. The Leica Cl except for a few proto types was all made by minolta and the cle had nothing left of Leitz but the lens mount. It was minoltas own camera.
--
bosjohn aka John Shick [email protected]

bosjohn said:

It is my understanding that the only part of the r3 through r whatever that minolta made was the body castings. The shutter was a joint venture with copal known as the Leitz copal square shutter. The Leica Cl except for a few proto types was all made by minolta and the cle had nothing left of Leitz but the lens mount. It was minoltas own camera.
--

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Hi,

Funny, I thought Leica made the 90mm f/4 lens for Minolta...

Regards, David

pcunite said:

sunhorse said:

You stated plainly in your OP that you had a problem with Leica stating the M9 is made in Germany. You were you were roundly drubbed for this, and rightly so. And now that your straw man argument went up in flames, you say "No, no! That's not what I meant!". Well you won't get much sympathy around here.

Click to expand...

Yes, I have a problem with where the camera was stated as being made. I don't have a problem with where it actually is made. You would never get a passing grade on a dissertation with arguments like these.

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Hi,

It is arguable that "Made in ........." is a legal necessity and not a factual statement. A factual statement would probably be too big for the thing.

Regards, David

pcunite said:

sunhorse said:

You stated plainly in your OP that you had a problem with Leica stating the M9 is made in Germany. You were you were roundly drubbed for this, and rightly so. And now that your straw man argument went up in flames, you say "No, no! That's not what I meant!". Well you won't get much sympathy around here.

Click to expand...

Yes, I have a problem with where the camera was stated as being made. I don't have a problem with where it actually is made. You would never get a passing grade on a dissertation with arguments like these.

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You made a statement, and when challenged, failed to back it up. Then you decided to backtrack away from that statement. Yes, that is definitely a failing grade. Case closed.

pcunite said:

Is Leica "made in Germany" according to common sense or according to legal sense? It seems that the cameras are completely fabricated outside of Germany and then a small percentage of the camera has it's final parts assembled and then tested in Germany.

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You have a good point here but it isn’t specific to Leica, which you acknowledge. But to say that Leica is no more than a design house is overstating it. The cameras are not completely fabricated outside Germany. in any case, putting together the components for a rangefinder camera is a highly critical part of its manufacture. And don’t forget the lenses.

The answer to your question is that, in the case of Leica camera bodies, “Made in Germany” is to be understood in a legal sense. The phrase doesn’t carry the everyday, common sense meaning that these words usually do.

I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that the situation is quite different in the case of Leica lenses. They don’t make the glass or mine the ore for the metal components but the lenses that purport to be “made in Germany” are made in Leica’s German workshop in the everyday sense of those words.

There are those of us who believe that the best thing about Leica is its expertise in optics. It designs and makes many of the best camera lenses ever made and there are video clips around in which you can witness them doing it.

To my mind the principal function of a Leica camera body is to be a vehicle for the lens it carries and the most important component is the rangefinder mechanism itself because it is this that links together the lens, the photographer and the scene. I have always assumed that these were made by Leica itself but where I don’t know.

Leica marketing does undoubtedly capitalise on the “Made in Germany” tag. It would be an act of incredible self-denial and commercial self-harm were it not to do so when it is legally acceptable. Because I know how to interpret it, I don’t have a problem with their using the phrase any more than I would have a problem with some components for the camera bodies being made in the Far East. I am not one of those who believes that Asian engineering and manufacturing skills are inferior to those of Europeans. Generally speaking, quite the contrary.

I broadly agree with you. It would be nice if words always meant what they appear to mean. Unfortunately neither words, nor the people who use them, work like that.

euston said:

Because I know how to interpret it, I don’t have a problem with their using the phrase any more than I would have a problem with some components for the camera bodies being made in the Far East.

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We should keep in mind that the Portugal factory delivering the pre-assembled M9 kits to Solms (without imaging modules) is an integral part of Leica too. The employees in Vila Nova de Famalicão surely have all reason to be equally proud as their colleagues in Solms for creating such a magnificent product. The same applies to the Jenoptik staff making the imaging modules.

Indeed I'd have found it better if they'd just have printed "Leica Camera Germany" on the rear and "Made in E.U." on the bottom. But actually that doesn't bother me. Neither Portugal nor Germany are countries I'd refuse to buy products from.

GiovanniB said:

Peter White said:

If Leica indeed claims the camera is made in Germany, and if in fact it's made from parts manufactured elsewhere, Leica should state where that elsewhere is. If they weren't claiming it's made in Germany, then it really wouldn't matter. They had Phil in to see the camera assembled in Germany, so it's clear that they want to create the image in the mind of photographers that the camera is German, so why not tell the whole story?

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What's missing of the "whole story" for you?

Phil's report clearly shows the M9 camera body is made by Leica, with the electronics module being produced by their production partner Jenoptik (also in Germany).

It's also clearly indicated everywhere that the sensor is manufactured by Kodak to Leica specifications. Standard components like the LCD screen and the resistors on the PCBs are of course purchased from the respective standard manufacturers.

In contrast to Zeiss, Leica manufactures their own designs in-house, but adds some re-badged separate items to round up the product portfolio, which currently applies to the re-badged Panasonic point-and-shoots. These don't carry the "Made in Germany" designation of course.

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Perhaps I missed it, but what I saw was a kit of parts, what was referred to as "a set of sub-assemblies" the source of which is unstated, that the factory people at Solms then assembled into a camera. Then again, perhaps I missed the statement about where this "set of sub-assemblies" came from.

I noticed that you never came to this forum, except to start a negative thread on leica in general and on the S2.

You are trolling. Go back to your Canon forum, and even there you lost your credibility tmo.

Reg

pcunite said:

Is Leica "made in Germany" according to common sense or according to legal sense? It seems that the cameras are completely fabricated outside of Germany and then a small percentage of the camera has it's final parts assembled and then tested in Germany.

This puts Leica in the same camp as most manufactures today:
Leica = design house.

Why the continued need to state where it is made? Just tell us you have the camera made by cheap labor... why all the smoke and mirrors? Perhaps we might noticed the outrages prices? Perhaps we might question that only a few of the profits from the camera go to those who really make them?

It is good to be king these days no?

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eNo said:

Nice. A bit of advice I learned back when I was actually poor: the difference between poverty and wealth is not how much you have, but how much you keep. I could afford several M9's and lenses, and if I did, I would be poor. As it is, I am not.

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Gosh, I will I could have thought of something so witty!
--
Greg Gebhardt in
Jacksonville, Florida

Les Lammers said:

If Leica to make all the parts in house...they could not have produced the camera.

Why reinvent the wheel? It's the images that matter not the origin of the camera.

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I agree completely. My point, a different point, which some seem unable to understand, is really quite simple.

Leica makes the claim that the camera is "Made in Germany". But in fact it is assembled there, from parts made in a variety of locations. So the claim that the camera is "Made in Germany" may be legally correct, but factually incorrect.

Obviously, Leica cares about where its customers think the camera is made. I couldn't care less where it's made, but for some reason Leica cares about their customer's perception of where the cameras are made.