I have a son who is involved in his high school choral and theater groups. Any photos that can be taken will be in a darkened theater with no flash. I would also like to be able to zoom in quite close for head shots. In addition to that requirement, I'd also like the camera to be a good "all around" camera and have some HD video capability, as well as being relatively easy to use. My budget is about $400. I'm looking at Panasonic DMC-LX3 (10x zoom), Kodak Z980 (24x zoom) and Canon Powershot SX20 (20x zoom). Any suggestions? How much zoom do I REALLY need to get those shots referred to above? Thx.
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What features/camera needed for (darkened) theater & choral photos?
- Thread starter sstein44
- Start date
With that budget, I recommend getting an entry-level DSLR for not much more. The low light performance will be light years ahead of even the best compacts. If you have the means, buy a fast prime, which are relatively inexpensive. Pentax, Canon, Nikon all have excellent choices. Sony seems to have dumbed down their offerings too much for me to recommend them.
You can always choose to buy a 70-200 f2.8 zoom, but these will cost double your camera budget at the minimum.
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/xinogage
You can always choose to buy a 70-200 f2.8 zoom, but these will cost double your camera budget at the minimum.
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/xinogage
ukitali
Member
I agree with the above poster. A prime lens, like a 50mm 1.8 will give you nice low light photos. You can always crop them later on to get those head shots you want.
mike703
Veteran Member
When you say 'darkened' I assume that the stage will be lit, otherwise you've got problems...
In the conditions you describe you will be using ISO 800 (at least) or 1600 (probably). No compact camera performs well under these conditions because the tiny sensor just doesn't collect enough light, so you get very noisy images. As the other posters have said, you really need a DSLR for this sort of low light work. The cheapest entry-level one will do (e.g. Nikon D40: $475 from B&H photo in NYC) and will give results massively better than a compact.
For close-ups you need a telephoto, and that means a smaller aperture (unless you spend a great deal of money), which means slower shutter speeds... so get a lens (or a camera) that has image stabilisation or your shots will be blurred due to camera shake.
Best wishes
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Mike
Richard Weisgrau
Senior Member
I have shot theater for over 30 years. I've done high school and college as well as semi-pro and pro. You can see some of my shots at my website under Gallery - On the Stage. I agree with what has been said by others before me, but I will elaborate a bit.
Forget the compact camera unless you can get in close an use flash. If you do that you will get a marginally acceptable photo. Best course is a Dslr 6MP or above. A used Nikon D70 is good for the work and probably in your price range. It has a better viewfinder than the newer D40. Unless you are making big enlargements you do not need more than 6 MP.
I have used zoom and fixed focal length lenses with a definite preference for the latter. A D70 with a 50/1.8 is a good choice. Mostly I use my 35/2.0 and 50/1.8, but I have used a 14-45 on an Olympus. It took a lot of careful selection of shots to assure no camera or subject motion.
If you shoot the performance, you are very limited in what you can capture. I always shoot the final dress rehearsal. That way I have no audience to interfere with. I can get up on the stage, move around, shoot from any angle I choose. I do not ever use flash, preferring to use the theatrical lighting over the flat lighting of a flash.
The choice of ISO is dependent upon the lighting level of the scene and the volume/power of lights used in the theater. I suspect that in HS you will be looking at lower levels of light intensity than you would find in the pro theater world unless you have a very wealthy school.
Finally, remember that exposures should favor the highlights not the shadows. No one cares what is in the shadows of a play (with some rare exceptions). Get detail in the highlights and let the shadows go dark if ratio is high. That way you eliminate noise in the underexposed shadows and increase the drama of the shot.
Best of luck.
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Richard Weisgrau
http://www.weisgrau.com
Forget the compact camera unless you can get in close an use flash. If you do that you will get a marginally acceptable photo. Best course is a Dslr 6MP or above. A used Nikon D70 is good for the work and probably in your price range. It has a better viewfinder than the newer D40. Unless you are making big enlargements you do not need more than 6 MP.
I have used zoom and fixed focal length lenses with a definite preference for the latter. A D70 with a 50/1.8 is a good choice. Mostly I use my 35/2.0 and 50/1.8, but I have used a 14-45 on an Olympus. It took a lot of careful selection of shots to assure no camera or subject motion.
If you shoot the performance, you are very limited in what you can capture. I always shoot the final dress rehearsal. That way I have no audience to interfere with. I can get up on the stage, move around, shoot from any angle I choose. I do not ever use flash, preferring to use the theatrical lighting over the flat lighting of a flash.
The choice of ISO is dependent upon the lighting level of the scene and the volume/power of lights used in the theater. I suspect that in HS you will be looking at lower levels of light intensity than you would find in the pro theater world unless you have a very wealthy school.
Finally, remember that exposures should favor the highlights not the shadows. No one cares what is in the shadows of a play (with some rare exceptions). Get detail in the highlights and let the shadows go dark if ratio is high. That way you eliminate noise in the underexposed shadows and increase the drama of the shot.
Best of luck.
--
Richard Weisgrau
http://www.weisgrau.com
dad_of_four
Veteran Member
To get those really killer shots, you probably are gonna want the gear shown below:
I'm half-saying this in jest because this is the gear my buddy has for shooting the exact situation (show choir) you are talking about.
People balk about spending $10-15 for an 8x10, but they need to realize it takes $8,000 worth of gear, and another $20,000 worth of displays, printers, kiosks to take that picture.
My advice , (and this may sound snobbish), enjoy your son's performance live, and spend the $20 on several good pictures.
I'm half-saying this in jest because this is the gear my buddy has for shooting the exact situation (show choir) you are talking about.
People balk about spending $10-15 for an 8x10, but they need to realize it takes $8,000 worth of gear, and another $20,000 worth of displays, printers, kiosks to take that picture.
My advice , (and this may sound snobbish), enjoy your son's performance live, and spend the $20 on several good pictures.
I shoot photos of stage productions for several local theaters. The lenses I use on my Nikon D100 (6MP) are fixed focal lengths from 20mm to 105mm. The 105 is an f/2.8 and sometimes is too slow. The others (20, 28, 50, & 85) are all f/1.8. All photos are shot at ISO1600. Exposures can be as little as 1/30 @ f/2 for a dimly lighted night scene. In that situation, the success rate is rather low. This past week I was rather lucky and got to shoot some scenes at 1/125 @ f/4. That is a rarity.
The focal lengths you need will depend on your particular situations. Will you be shooting over an orchestra pit? In one of the theaters I shoot at, they have a pit that is used for musicals but is covered for other productions. When the pit is open, I'm 12 feet from the stage, & when its covered I can rest my elbows on the stage. How deep & wide is the stage? In one of the theaters I shoot at, even my 20mm won't give me wide enough coverage if the blocking comes all way down to the edge of the stage.
One thing to keep in mind about most of the cameras with large zoom ratios is that the lenses are usually rather slow, especially at the longer focal lengths. Trying to handhold a long lens at a small max aperture in low light is impossible. Most of the P&S cameras have very slow zooming and focusing and so much shutter lag that capturing peaks in facial expressions is extremely difficult. And most P&S cameras have very poor performance at high ISO settings. One of the theaters I shoot for tried doing their own photos with a high-end P&S camera (I don't recall which make or model), but were never successful because the camera just wasn't adequate. They finally threw it away when they broke off the retractable lens .
A DSLR with fast lenses is almost mandatory if you plan to be successful capturing stage productions. A lower end amatuer oriented DSLR with a 50mm f/1.8 might be a good starting place. Make sure you have plenty of memory cards, I usually shoot 1500 to 1800 shots per play.
That's all I can think of right now.
The focal lengths you need will depend on your particular situations. Will you be shooting over an orchestra pit? In one of the theaters I shoot at, they have a pit that is used for musicals but is covered for other productions. When the pit is open, I'm 12 feet from the stage, & when its covered I can rest my elbows on the stage. How deep & wide is the stage? In one of the theaters I shoot at, even my 20mm won't give me wide enough coverage if the blocking comes all way down to the edge of the stage.
One thing to keep in mind about most of the cameras with large zoom ratios is that the lenses are usually rather slow, especially at the longer focal lengths. Trying to handhold a long lens at a small max aperture in low light is impossible. Most of the P&S cameras have very slow zooming and focusing and so much shutter lag that capturing peaks in facial expressions is extremely difficult. And most P&S cameras have very poor performance at high ISO settings. One of the theaters I shoot for tried doing their own photos with a high-end P&S camera (I don't recall which make or model), but were never successful because the camera just wasn't adequate. They finally threw it away when they broke off the retractable lens .
A DSLR with fast lenses is almost mandatory if you plan to be successful capturing stage productions. A lower end amatuer oriented DSLR with a 50mm f/1.8 might be a good starting place. Make sure you have plenty of memory cards, I usually shoot 1500 to 1800 shots per play.
That's all I can think of right now.
M
Mark B.
Guest
I do agree that a darkened theater lends itself to needing a DSLR, but a $5k body is overkill. There are a number of DSLR entry level bodies that can be had for
Mark
Mark
To get those really killer shots, you probably are gonna want the gear shown below:
I'm half-saying this in jest because this is the gear my buddy has for shooting the exact situation (show choir) you are talking about.
People balk about spending $10-15 for an 8x10, but they need to realize it takes $8,000 worth of gear, and another $20,000 worth of displays, printers, kiosks to take that picture.
My advice , (and this may sound snobbish), enjoy your son's performance live, and spend the $20 on several good pictures.
I'd get a basic Canon (XS) or Nikon (D3000) DSLR with the IS/VR kit lens. Then, when the time comes, rent a professional lens like a 70-200/2.8. Or, if you don't want to rent, consider the 85/1.8. Either way, buy a monopod.
Leejay Wu
Senior Member
Circumstances might be easier then rather than during the actual performance.
Thanks, everyone, for your responses to my post.
OK-- I guess I need to really back up, and give more information about myself. I am taking these pictures for myself. None will be sold. The pictures need to be decent-- not professional quality. I can't afford an SRL. Yes, I will be able to take photos during dress rehearsal-- during performance photos are not an option. Am I SOL, or is there a camera out there that will give me a decent end product?
OK-- I guess I need to really back up, and give more information about myself. I am taking these pictures for myself. None will be sold. The pictures need to be decent-- not professional quality. I can't afford an SRL. Yes, I will be able to take photos during dress rehearsal-- during performance photos are not an option. Am I SOL, or is there a camera out there that will give me a decent end product?
I checked the mfr's websites on the cameras you listed. I couldn't find a Pan DMC-LX3 that was a 10x zoom. All I found was a 2.5x 24 to 60 f/2-2.8 zoom. This one might be workable since that is a rather fast lens for a P&S. Its not a very long lens, but remember that at the generally slow shutter speeds you'll be using, it is well nigh impossible to handhold really long lenses. You might want to make sure the camera you get has Image Stabilization.
The Kodak Z980 is f2.8-5.0 and the Canon SX20 is f/2.8-5.7. At the longer focal lengths neither of these would be workable in most situations you will encounter. The shutter speeds will be to slow for hand holding or to stop any action. At the shorter focal lengths, you might be successful some of the time, but I feel that your success rate will be rather low most of the time. Of course the zoom factor really isn't very important, what is important is the actual focal length range offered by the lenses.
I believe all 3 or these are EVF cameras. Historically, EVFs have not performed well in low-light situations, but I don't know what kind of performance to expect from the cameras you listed. The zoom and focus mechanisms on this type camera usually are not the fastest in the world, but one or more of the cameras you listed might be adequate, so make sure you check that out before you buy. You might be able to develop a working technique that overcomes somewhat these limitations such as prezooming and prefocusing on a particular area of the stage and wait for the actors to move into that area. That wouldn't be too difficult to do if you are familiar with the blocking schemes.
The limitations encountered when working with most stage productions are the same whether you are an amatuer or a professional because iti s the lighting itself that creates the limitations. Without the proper equipment, you will have an extremely low success rate. If your equipment is not well suited for this type of photography, you probably should shoot a lot. So if you decide to get a P&S camera, make sure you buy a whole lot of memory cards. Or get a low-end DSLR with a 50mm f/1.8 lens, it won't cost much more than the cameras you've listed.
The Kodak Z980 is f2.8-5.0 and the Canon SX20 is f/2.8-5.7. At the longer focal lengths neither of these would be workable in most situations you will encounter. The shutter speeds will be to slow for hand holding or to stop any action. At the shorter focal lengths, you might be successful some of the time, but I feel that your success rate will be rather low most of the time. Of course the zoom factor really isn't very important, what is important is the actual focal length range offered by the lenses.
I believe all 3 or these are EVF cameras. Historically, EVFs have not performed well in low-light situations, but I don't know what kind of performance to expect from the cameras you listed. The zoom and focus mechanisms on this type camera usually are not the fastest in the world, but one or more of the cameras you listed might be adequate, so make sure you check that out before you buy. You might be able to develop a working technique that overcomes somewhat these limitations such as prezooming and prefocusing on a particular area of the stage and wait for the actors to move into that area. That wouldn't be too difficult to do if you are familiar with the blocking schemes.
The limitations encountered when working with most stage productions are the same whether you are an amatuer or a professional because iti s the lighting itself that creates the limitations. Without the proper equipment, you will have an extremely low success rate. If your equipment is not well suited for this type of photography, you probably should shoot a lot. So if you decide to get a P&S camera, make sure you buy a whole lot of memory cards. Or get a low-end DSLR with a 50mm f/1.8 lens, it won't cost much more than the cameras you've listed.
given your budget, look at the "superzoom" type cameras -
Panasonic FZ28
Canon PowerShot SX10
Nikon Coolpix P90
and there are others - if you learn the manual controls -( ISO, aperture, shutter speed) you can get some decent low light performance
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