Why all the attacks?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Francesco
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difficult to imagine a better propaganda campaign than the threads celebrating

the last Leica products. I am shure people in Solms will find it helpful to their
marketing.
 
Hi,

No offense taken - I understand your point and agree that consistency is best. Of course if I were really photographing a Polar Bear in a snowstorm or Black Cat, etc., I would use spot metering (and in the first case, probably only from a tank - LOL).

I suspect that perhaps when some Japanese manufacturers test their cameras outside the lab in real life, they do not see the same lighting conditions as some of us do because of geographical and environmental differences. This "could" account for differences in default exposure calibrations. As I said, it's simple enough to correct with EC, but annoying nonetheless.

Best regards,

Lin
 
Hi,

No offense taken - I understand your point and agree that consistency is best. Of course if I were really photographing a Polar Bear in a snowstorm or Black Cat, etc., I would use spot metering (and in the first case, probably only from a tank - LOL).
You could replace the gun with a 1200 f/5.6 L for good measure!
I suspect that perhaps when some Japanese manufacturers test their cameras outside the lab in real life, they do not see the same lighting conditions as some of us do because of geographical and environmental differences. This "could" account for differences in default exposure calibrations. As I said, it's simple enough to correct with EC, but annoying nonetheless.
Another possible source for inconsistency, I think, is user feedback. I remember when the 400D came out, there were quite a few threads about the camera underexposing. It turned out that the metering protected highlights from being blown (possibly something requested by people worried about blown highlights), and in a scene where there's only a small very bright patch this results in everything else being underexposed and dull. So a system that never allows blown highlights can be a pain, too...

And if Canon "corrected" that, well, I guess we're seeing more blown highlights again.

I'd like to add that despite the initial disagreement, this was a pleasant discussion, and reason prevailed. Lately I've noticed a distinct lack of either on DPR, particularly on anything Leica-related. I got attacked for saying that I like composing on a rangefinder! And I wasn't even talking about a Leica.
 
Hi,

I might need the tank to carry that bazooka (1200 F/5.6L) - about 44 pounds as I remember - LOL. I think Canon only built a couple dozen of these.

It's a shame that there are so many "angry" people in the world today and that a civil conversation can't be carried on in spite of disagreements. It does seem that arguments on DPR often go beyond simple passion for photography and equipment bias.

I don't believe in attacking a person for a differing viewpoint or even wildly different opinions. One really never knows what motivates a particular bias or opinion, no matter how far outside the accepted norms it may lie. I've had my share of disagreements over the past 10 years on DPR but have always tried to remain on friendly terms even with those with whom I have "violent" disagreements. Some of my best web friends over the years have been people whom I have had plenty of "spats" with over cameras, lenses and technology. For me it's never personal - just good intellectual exercise and always a learning experience.

Life is too short for petty squabbles!

Best regards,

Lin
Hi,

No offense taken - I understand your point and agree that consistency is best. Of course if I were really photographing a Polar Bear in a snowstorm or Black Cat, etc., I would use spot metering (and in the first case, probably only from a tank - LOL).
You could replace the gun with a 1200 f/5.6 L for good measure!
I suspect that perhaps when some Japanese manufacturers test their cameras outside the lab in real life, they do not see the same lighting conditions as some of us do because of geographical and environmental differences. This "could" account for differences in default exposure calibrations. As I said, it's simple enough to correct with EC, but annoying nonetheless.
Another possible source for inconsistency, I think, is user feedback. I remember when the 400D came out, there were quite a few threads about the camera underexposing. It turned out that the metering protected highlights from being blown (possibly something requested by people worried about blown highlights), and in a scene where there's only a small very bright patch this results in everything else being underexposed and dull. So a system that never allows blown highlights can be a pain, too...

And if Canon "corrected" that, well, I guess we're seeing more blown highlights again.

I'd like to add that despite the initial disagreement, this was a pleasant discussion, and reason prevailed. Lately I've noticed a distinct lack of either on DPR, particularly on anything Leica-related. I got attacked for saying that I like composing on a rangefinder! And I wasn't even talking about a Leica.
 
Life is too short for petty squabbles!
I can't disagree with you there!

And I don't mind disagreements as long as people concentrate on the merits of their respective arguments (that's what debates are all about). When the arguments turn against a person instead, I quickly lose interest.
 
You may have seen worse but they do not cost $7,000 either. This has nothing to do with camera envy, whether I can afford one or not, if it's a Leica or another brand, if I want a rangefinder or not or bashing Leica. For me it's about charging a premium price for a camera of limited use that the image quality is average at best with todays current cameras. Look at the detail on this image shot at ISO 3200 from a pre-production 7D. Keep in mind that this camera is 1/4 the price of a Leica.
http://stepheneastwood.com/Canon/amy_7t/1_img_9893.htm

Compare the samples from the $700 D500 that many images were taken with a low end 18-55mm lens and you will see they are at least as good if not better then the Leica and does have better ISO performance.

I never thought anyone buying a Leica is being ripped off, if they are satisfied with the camera, enjoy using it and gives them what no other camera can, then it's money well spent. All I'm saying is with Leica's reputation with cameras and lenses I was expecting more. If the E-P1 or GF1 can not provide the rangefinder experience and that is what you are looking for then Leica is the camera to buy.

Some posted I have camera envy, I can also say you are buying a Leica so everyone will envy you. ;)
When I see purple fringing, blown highlights and noise at ISO 1600 on a $7,000 camera,
I've seen all of the above and worse (especially in the noise department) coming from medium format cameras. I guess their owners should feel they were ripped off big time too.

;)
--
Tom
 
You may have seen worse but they do not cost $7,000 either. This has nothing to do with camera envy, whether I can afford one or not, if it's a Leica or another brand, if I want a rangefinder or not or bashing Leica. For me it's about charging a premium price for a camera of limited use that the image quality is average at best with todays current cameras.

Look at the detail on this image shot at ISO 3200 from a pre-production 7D. Keep in mind that this camera is 1/4 the price of a Leica.
Was that a RAW conversion too? Or are we looking at the typical Canon NR at work? Judging by the lack of detail, I'm guessing the latter. I've seen high ISO shots from the M9, but those were mostly RAW conversions with most/all of the noise still in place.
http://stepheneastwood.com/Canon/amy_7t/1_img_9893.htm

Compare the samples from the $700 D500 that many images were taken with a low end 18-55mm lens and you will see they are at least as good if not better then the Leica and does have better ISO performance.
And I know many 35mm digital cameras that outperform MF cameras in this department, while those MF cameras cost a lot more.

The point is, if you want a digital rangefinder and/ or just the smallest 35mm digital camera out there and/or a more silent FF camera, it's still your best bet. Since Leica isn't making huge profits (at the contrary), you can't blame them for asking these prices either. You can blame them for producing cameras the way they do, but since that is one of the unique selling points, I doubt that's going to change dramatically.
I never thought anyone buying a Leica is being ripped off, if they are satisfied with the camera, enjoy using it and gives them what no other camera can, then it's money well spent. All I'm saying is with Leica's reputation with cameras and lenses I was expecting more.
Most of what we see is the result of the Kodak sensor (noise, PF) and compromises due to the design. They improved over tha M8 and no other sensor would fit in the first place. I'm not sure why people were expecting so much more.
 
LOL...attacked? Here's how that started.
I seems as though you attacked DSLR users
to me. Whatever....

Kuivaamo wrote:
One of my favourite features in a rangefinder

is the way you can see what's just outside your framing, not just what your film/sensor will capture. I think it's great for composing as well as timing.

Composing with a DSLR is a different experience, and not always for the better.

PBasepeterb wrote:

Funny, I learned years ago to keep both eyes open when shooting (with a SLR)for just those reasons....I thought eveyone understood this...I guess I was wrong.

Kuivaamo wrote:

Nah, I don't like keeping both eyes open when I compose with an SLR. I don't enjoy doing that with a rangefinder either, to tell you the truth. Can I do it? Sure, but I won't.

--
Keep your lens clean and your mind open.
http://www.pbase.com/peterb/

 
LOL...attacked? Here's how that started.
I seems as though you attacked DSLR users
to me. Whatever....
I can't for the life of me find anything where I attack DSLR users. That would be silly, since I'm a DSLR user myself.

Just let it go, alright?
I can, can you?

Of course, there's been plenty of bashing from both
camps and it is getting old. I think all the arguments
have been trotted out and beaten to death by now.

--
Keep your lens clean and your mind open.
http://www.pbase.com/peterb/

 
LOL...attacked? Here's how that started.
I seems as though you attacked DSLR users
to me. Whatever....
I can't for the life of me find anything where I attack DSLR users. That would be silly, since I'm a DSLR user myself.

Just let it go, alright?
I can, can you?

Of course, there's been plenty of bashing from both
camps and it is getting old. I think all the arguments
have been trotted out and beaten to death by now.
Funny, I haven't bashed anything. I enjoy using SLR's, RF's and TLR's, all for their own reasons. I stated one of the things I enjoy about RF photography. Plus I did not post a single personal attack against you, even after you did so repeatedly.

To me, there was never a debate between me and you. Just strangely extreme reactions from you to something totally benign that I posted.

Like I've said, I'm not interested in ad hominem stuff, so I'll concentrate on the more reasonable discussions on this site.
 
..openings like this:

"Leica's M9. Apparently some have lots of cash!"

..I'm a Canon user but can see a huge benefit for mobility/comfort when traveling and streets with Leica M9, compared to bulky vertical hand grip dslr's. And some people have more cash than I have, so why not?

I have 'enough' gear, but would love Canon -version of such a rangefinder, preferably 1.0x but 1.6x crop would do also.

--
http://www.jussivakkala.com
 
People like yourself try perpetuate, amplify and propagate myths about this camera brand trying to justify what is essentially a snobbery status driven choice.

People like myself find the non-admittance of that fact and the subversive evoking of imaginary adavntages a bad service to those who need objective inputs about camera formats and brands.

It's that simple.

Say you crave a Leica because you just want one or because it will make you feel superior to the rest of the photo-human race and you won't hear a peep from me. To each is own.

But, since you evoked some of those confabulated myths again in your OP, here goes mu "Myth Busting" list. I am sure you'll be calling an "attack".

Myth 1: " It's a camera with only the bear essentials for the true purists. "

36 x 24 mm CCD with18 million effective pixels.
Dual processors.
Quiet metal blade.
3 mode shutter release (Standard / Soft / Discreet).
B&W AND Vintage B&W modes
Preset user profile for snapshot mode.
4 user profiles.
Bracketing with 3/5/7 images, 0.5 - 2.0 EV.
etc, etc...

Bare essentials?...Right...

Cold hard fact: They put in has much as they can, according to the format.
What they leave out is probably by sheer incapacity.

That they do it at that absurd price point is just laughable and shows how gullible people can be.

Myth 2: " Their optics are singular and exclusive and have a "je ne sais quoi" about it. "

Cold hard facts:

1. They are not "exclusive". They can be used in most cameras, by means of an adapter.

2. Optics quality correlates directly with the price paid. A 24mm f/1.4 Summilux retails at more than 3.5x a Canon EF 24mm f1.4 II. I doubt it performs 3.5 times better...

Myth 3: " Leicas are built to better engineering standards than other cameras. "

Cold hard facts: They are built to the best possible engineering standards available to their engineering team, like any other brand.

In this regard, the fact that their " übber alles " German engineering design team "forgot" to put an effective IR filter on the M8 and had to resort to an "after the fact" solution to sort the blunder out, speaks volumes on how it can be as sub-standard as any one else, given the opportunity.

Myth 4: " Every conceivable Leica ever built will, in time, have a collector value. "

Cold hard facts: It is true that a gold plated Leica M3 can sell for 150,000+ USD. But, then again, only 2 are known to exist.

Try to sell a "regular" 1957 M3 and you'll be lucky if you get 750 USD for it.

As for current digital ones getting collector status, that is just hopeless and unfounded wishful thinking.

They are just electronics gadgets like any other camera and, as such, will depreciate faster than you can say "Cheese".

(Limited editions could be worth something in the future but I see none around...).

Myth 5: " People buy a Leica for their uniqueness and how special their photos look. "

Cold hard fact: People buy a Leica for the "status quick" they feel they will get out of it.

I have it bluntly admitted to me several times both here and from direct conversation with prospective buyers.

Myth 6: " Only Leica owners know how to "feel" and "evaluate" a photo before taking it and that capacity is given by the camera, itself, in an almost transcendental way. "

Cold hard fact: Leica's rangefinders do not intrinsically lead to better, more well-thought-of and crafted photography as any other brand or type of camera.

Take any photo art book (that is not exclusively dedicated to Leica). There will probably be some Leica rangefinders photos in it. There will be much more photos from other brands and types of cameras.

Please, please, please DO NOT re-propagate and amplify the above list of absurd myths.

PK

--
“Loose praise may feed my ego but constructive criticism advances my skills”
************************************************************
-------------------------------------------------
http://www.pbase.com/photokhan
(PBase Supporter)
 
People like yourself try perpetuate, amplify and propagate myths about this camera brand trying to justify what is essentially a snobbery status driven choice.
That's a tad harsh. If I won the lottery, I'd probably buy an M9, definitely not because of status (I don't like people paying attention to me when I use a camera, I prefer not to stand out; in fact I prefer photographing in places where there aren't any people) but because I'd like a FF digital rangefinder. Because I like my $100 Canonet, and sadly the $7 000 M9 is the only digital equivalent in existence.

Replacing a $100 camera with a $7 000 camera to get similar functionality sure sounds stupid, which is why I'd only do it if I got rich. But at least I can appreciate why someone with the means would opt to buy the M9 instead of (or in addition to) a FF DSLR from Canon/Nikon/Sony. I think the "snobbery" claim is a bit much, and it's painting people with a broad brush.
 
People like yourself try perpetuate, amplify and propagate myths about this camera brand trying to justify what is essentially a snobbery status driven choice.
That's a tad harsh. If I won the lottery, I'd probably buy an M9, definitely not because of status (I don't like people paying attention to me when I use a camera, I prefer not to stand out; in fact I prefer photographing in places where there aren't any people) but because I'd like a FF digital rangefinder. Because I like my $100 Canonet, and sadly the $7 000 M9 is the only digital equivalent in existence.

Replacing a $100 camera with a $7 000 camera to get similar functionality sure sounds stupid, which is why I'd only do it if I got rich. But at least I can appreciate why someone with the means would opt to buy the M9 instead of (or in addition to) a FF DSLR from Canon/Nikon/Sony. I think the "snobbery" claim is a bit much, and it's painting people with a broad brush.
Well, believe it or not, I have it admitted to me, as bluntly as possible, in several occasions.

...Something which, of course, let me speechless and incapacitate to retort...After all, that IS an objective reason (based on the brand perception) and impossible to argue with.

There are also objective reasons to want a rangefinder as a photographic tool.

Those are also impossible to counter as they are true, legitimate and photo-passion driven needs.

Things just start turning the wrong way when the brand and price point justification starts...

PK
--
“Loose praise may feed my ego but constructive criticism advances my skills”
************************************************************
-------------------------------------------------
http://www.pbase.com/photokhan
(PBase Supporter)
 
Kuivaamo wrote:

" I don't like people paying attention to me when I use a camera, I prefer not to stand out; in fact I prefer photographing in places where there aren't any people ."

...That's what I call a perfect valid and wholly understandable "photographic need" that fully justifies getting a rangefinder.

Now, on that account, tell me you would like to have an M9 because you found out it is the most silent of all and we surely won't have a beef :)

PK

--
“Loose praise may feed my ego but constructive criticism advances my skills”
************************************************************
-------------------------------------------------
http://www.pbase.com/photokhan
(PBase Supporter)
 
Well, believe it or not, I have it admitted to me, as bluntly as possible, in several occasions.

...Something which, of course, let me speechless and incapacitate to retort...After all, that IS an objective reason (based on the brand perception) and impossible to argue with.

There are also objective reasons to want a rangefinder as a photographic tool.

Those are also impossible to counter as they are true, legitimate and photo-passion driven needs.

Things just start turning the wrong way when the brand and price point justification starts...
Oh well, I don't know why there's ever need for more than these two justifications for buying anything:

"it does what I want" and "I can afford it".
 
Kuivaamo wrote:

" I don't like people paying attention to me when I use a camera, I prefer not to stand out; in fact I prefer photographing in places where there aren't any people ."

...That's what I call a perfect valid and wholly understandable "photographic need" that fully justifies getting a rangefinder.

Now, on that account, tell me you would like to have an M9 because you found out it is the most silent of all and we surely won't have a beef :)
I haven't used it so I can't know for sure. Unfortunately I doubt it would be more quiet than my Canonet, since the latter has a leaf shutter. Leaf shutters are also better for handholding at slow shutter speeds, since the inertia forces are canceled out unlike in a blade shutter. But I'm fairly confident the differences would be marginal. But this is all pretty academic seeing how I can't afford an M9!

I could downgrade my 20D & 17-55 e.g. to an Oly 420 & pancake for a less conspicuous setup if that was my biggest concern, so I wouldn't use discreteness as the main justification for splurging out for an M. Discreteness and compactness together with rangefinder focusing and viewfinder would be my reasons.
 

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