Leica - Made in Germany

Jim Radcliffe · Sep 14, 2009

darinb said:
This seems very odd.

Some people tend to over think everything about Leica products yet never apply the same thought process to Canon, Nikon or any other camera maker.

Those who hesitate to shell out $7K for a Leica because it was not "totally" made in Germany are basing their buying decisions on factors that simply are not all that relevant. I don't care where it's made. I care whether it produces the images I expect.

I don't buy into the German Mystique at all. Some do and that is their right and their problem. Very few camera makers produce every single part that goes into their cameras and to suggest that Leica should, is ridiculous.

--
Jim Radcliffe
http://www.boxedlight.com
http://www.oceona.com

The ability to 'see' the shot is more important than the gear used to capture it.

Tariq · Sep 14, 2009

I agree with you. In the U.S., on the sticker of new automobiles at least, there is a percentage break down of what countries the parts are from. Leica really pushes the "Made in Germany" slogan, perhaps a bit too far. Final assembly and testing of the camera (M8-M9) takes place in Germany by Leica but the parts are mostly form elsewhere. A lot of the actual work is done in Portugal. Yet, "Made in Germany" portends to mean something that is not true. How about "Assembled in Germany". That would be more accurate or even "Designed and Assembled by Leica in Germany" ala "Designed by Apple in California, Assembled in China". "Made in Germany" is misleading. The clincher is that it is intentionally misleading and playing off of the consumers perception that something made in Germany is superior. I think it should be changed otherwise it is a false and misleading claim. I suspect, as has been reported by at least one person, that the X1 is mostly made in Japan though Leica claims it is "Made in Germany". Some could care less where things are made while others may avoid contributing to certain countries for political or personal reasons. They should at least be given enough information to make an accurate choice and not be intentionally mislead.

Tariq · Sep 14, 2009

Jim Radcliffe said:
Those who hesitate to shell out $7K for a Leica because it was not "totally" made in Germany are basing their buying decisions on factors that simply are not all that relevant. I don't care where it's made. I care whether it produces the images I expect.

Hi Jim,

While that might not be relevant to you, it very well could matter to someone else.

Tariq · Sep 14, 2009

Raul said:
hrmm

Strictly speaking, no, it is not Made in Germany. Partial and final assembly as well as testing takes place in Germany. A lot of the camera is made in Portugal while the individual parts are from all over.

GiovanniB · Sep 14, 2009

Tariq said:
I agree with you. In the U.S., on the sticker of new automobiles at least, there is a percentage break down of what countries the parts are from. Leica really pushes the "Made in Germany" slogan, perhaps a bit too far. Final assembly and testing of the camera (M8-M9) takes place in Germany by Leica but the parts are mostly form elsewhere.

Let's put the stickers on U.S. cars aside for a moment - this has nothing to do with product quality, but has the purpose of allowing U.S. purchasers to make a "patriotic" decision when buying their cars - and to create some public pressure on buyers and manufacturers to support domestic labor.

What I really wonder about, however, is what is being expected here from Leica. Do you think they should only engrave "Made in Germany" when every single part, right down to the LCD panel and the copper wiring in the charger's switching power supply, would be handmade in Solms? The time when a camera could be milled in a small factory from a solid chunk of glass and a few pieces of metal are over, if you like it or not.

Would you apply the same measure for other camera manufacturers? For example I have an older Sony DSLR with the bottom panel declaring "Made in Malaysia". Of course most of the components of this camera are NOT from Malysia, but from Japan, Taiwan, P.R. China and elsewhere. Would you therefore consider the designation "Made in Malaysia" illegitimate in the same manner by which you reject Leica's "Made in Germany" declaration?

Tariq said:
Final assembly and testing of the camera (M8-M9) takes place in Germany by Leica but the parts are mostly form elsewhere.

Is it askinig too much from someone who states such a claim to prove it in detail?

Jim Radcliffe · Sep 14, 2009

Tariq said:
I suspect, as has been reported by at least one person, that the X1 is mostly made in Japan though Leica claims it is "Made in Germany". Some could care less where things are made while others may avoid contributing to certain countries for political or personal reasons. They should at least be given enough information to make an accurate choice and not be intentionally mislead.

Sigh.. Maybe Leica should, on the back of their cameras, place the following in place of the Made in Germany notice.

Made in Japan, Phillipines, Portugal, China, Taiwan, India, Pakistan and Germany. Final assembly in Solms, Germany by German Citizens.. except for one guy from Pakistan and a woman from France both having dual citizenship in Germany and their respective countries. If you find the support of any of these countries to be counter to your political or religious views, do not buy this camera.

Of course this means there will be no room for the LCD but it's a small price to pay for honesty, right?

--
Jim Radcliffe
http://www.boxedlight.com
http://www.oceona.com

The ability to 'see' the shot is more important than the gear used to capture it.

GiovanniB · Sep 14, 2009

Jim Radcliffe said:
Sigh.. Maybe Leica should, on the back of their cameras, place the following in place of the Made in Germany notice.

Made in Japan, Phillipines, Portugal, China, Taiwan, India, Pakistan and Germany. Final assembly in Solms, Germany by German Citizens.. except for one guy from Pakistan and a woman from France both having dual citizenship in Germany and their respective countries. If you find the support of any of these countries to be counter to your political or religious views, do not buy this camera.

Of course this means there will be no room for the LCD but it's a small price to pay for honesty, right?

dasper · Sep 14, 2009

This might possibly be the most obnoxious thing I have read all year... And I spend all day reading news articles, international policy and government press releases. I think I'm done with these forums for another year, all I seem to be able to do is comment on the ridiculousness...

Way too many poseurs, not enough photographers.

Greg Gebhardt said:
Luxury never fails to intimidate some, no?

--
Greg Gebhardt in
Jacksonville, Florida

Les Lammers · Sep 14, 2009

Thay are assembled in Germany and not by elves in the Black Forest. What difference nce does it make? My Honda CRV was assembled in the U.K.

Michael S. · Sep 14, 2009

Greetings!

pcunite said:
Is Leica "made in Germany" according to common sense or according to legal sense?

Actually, and that's not a secret, it's been made in Portugal...a habit Leica already does for some years right now. Assembeld, checked and tests being made in Germany. Its more a kind of personal taste to say its "made in germany".

Everyone can hear this to on the interview on lumnious-landscape too from the CEO of Leica. Also the D-Lux Leicas are made there - side by side with its "twins" labeld Panasonic Lumix.

regards,
--
Michael S.
Austria/EUROPE; dpreview since 2001
NIKON NPS Member
(check equipment via profile)

http://www.jdf-events.at
http://www.pbase.com/bountyhunter

rhlpetrus · Sep 14, 2009

Well, Jim, but I've read some offensive posts here claiming that the reason it costs 7,000USD is because theya re made by well-rested, well-fed, happy Europeans, unlike the "sushi fed" emplyees of other makers.

So, you need to add what each eat:

Italians: pasta
Portuguese: salty cod
Thai: spicy/peanuts fancy stuff
German: sauerkraut
.
.
.

--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)

GiovanniB · Sep 14, 2009

... cause Sauerkraut is cheap, almost like Italian pasta al pesto.

Or maybe you should emphasize the French lady.

rhlpetrus said:
Well, Jim, but I've read some offensive posts here claiming that the reason it costs 7,000USD is because theya re made by well-rested, well-fed, happy Europeans, unlike the "sushi fed" emplyees of other makers.

So, you need to add what each eat:

Italians: pasta
Portuguese: salty cod
Thai: spicy/peanuts fancy stuff
German: sauerkraut
.
.
.

--
Renato.

Tariq · Sep 14, 2009

GiovanniB said:
Tariq said:

I agree with you. In the U.S., on the sticker of new automobiles at least, there is a percentage break down of what countries the parts are from. Leica really pushes the "Made in Germany" slogan, perhaps a bit too far. Final assembly and testing of the camera (M8-M9) takes place in Germany by Leica but the parts are mostly form elsewhere.

Click to expand...

Let's put the stickers on U.S. cars aside for a moment - this has nothing to do with product quality, but has the purpose of allowing U.S. purchasers to make a "patriotic" decision when buying their cars - and to create some public pressure on buyers and manufacturers to support domestic labor.

But, in this example, whatever the intent is of no matter. If the consumer has a preference for cars mostly made in the U.S., fine. If the consumer thinks cars mostly made in Japan are better fine. AND, if the consumer is avoiding cars made partly in China for whatever reason, fine. The point is that clear labeling allows the consumer to make an accurate decision for whatever reasons they may have.

GiovanniB said:
What I really wonder about, however, is what is being expected here from Leica. Do you think they should only engrave "Made in Germany" when every single part, right down to the LCD panel and the copper wiring in the charger's switching power supply, would be handmade in Solms? The time when a camera could be milled in a small factory from a solid chunk of glass and a few pieces of metal are over, if you like it or not.

I think in this day an age, using the word "Made in XXX" is misleading unless the entire thing is indeed made in a certain country. I'm sure most of the items I purchase that say "Made in China" are made in China down to the shoe string, copper wire, or whatever. Otherwise, using the correct word "Assembled in XXX" and or "Designed in XXX" is more accurate.

GiovanniB said:
Would you apply the same measure for other camera manufacturers? For example I have an older Sony DSLR with the bottom panel declaring "Made in Malaysia". Of course most of the components of this camera are NOT from Malysia, but from Japan, Taiwan, P.R. China and elsewhere. Would you therefore consider the designation "Made in Malaysia" illegitimate in the same manner by which you reject Leica's "Made in Germany" declaration?

This is a good point. I believe that, as I said above, the word "Assembled in Malaysia" should be used unless everything in the camera is actually made in Malaysia. The solution is simple. Manufactures should not use the word "Made in XXX" unless A. the entire thing is made there (highly unlikely today). Or B. It is stated somewhere, perhaps on the packaging, a percentage breakdown of where things come from that go into the product. Again, the easy way around this is to simply state "Assembled in XXX". The ONLY reason a company would choose not to do so (Use "Assembled in XXX") is if they were trying to give the impression that something was made in a specific place such as Germany, Japan or wherever due to some value associated with stating such. That is where things become misleading in my opinion.

GiovanniB said:
GiovanniB said:

Final assembly and testing of the camera (M8-M9) takes place in Germany by Leica but the parts are mostly form elsewhere.

Click to expand...

Is it askinig too much from someone who states such a claim to prove it in detail?

Just watch the video and note that at around the 55 sec. mark, the Leica empolyee states the camera they receive comes from Portugal.

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=leica+production+facility+portugal+M8&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

There was also a similar video for the M8 which stated the same. Leica has had a production facility in Portugal since the 1970's. This is widely known fact and not one that is hidden.

http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/Leica-Camera-AG-Company-History.html

Proving where every part comes from in detail would require you to send me an M9 for disassembly! or for Leica to state, as I have suggested, a % report of where the parts are from.

In no way am I claiming the camera is any less valuable or whatever due to where its parts are made, etc.

Tariq · Sep 14, 2009

Jim Radcliffe said:
Tariq said:

I suspect, as has been reported by at least one person, that the X1 is mostly made in Japan though Leica claims it is "Made in Germany". Some could care less where things are made while others may avoid contributing to certain countries for political or personal reasons. They should at least be given enough information to make an accurate choice and not be intentionally mislead.

Click to expand...

Sigh.. Maybe Leica should, on the back of their cameras, place the following in place of the Made in Germany notice.

Made in Japan, Phillipines, Portugal, China, Taiwan, India, Pakistan and Germany. Final assembly in Solms, Germany by German Citizens.. except for one guy from Pakistan and a woman from France both having dual citizenship in Germany and their respective countries. If you find the support of any of these countries to be counter to your political or religious views, do not buy this camera.

Of course this means there will be no room for the LCD but it's a small price to pay for honesty, right?

--
Jim Radcliffe

Yes, I think they should simply put that on the packaging. Sounds Great and that would make me Happy!

Greg Gebhardt · Sep 14, 2009

you must be poor

--
Greg Gebhardt in
Jacksonville, Florida

Tariq · Sep 14, 2009

Some people vote with their money believe it or not.

sigh...

GiovanniB said:
Jim Radcliffe said:

Sigh.. Maybe Leica should, on the back of their cameras, place the following in place of the Made in Germany notice.

Made in Japan, Phillipines, Portugal, China, Taiwan, India, Pakistan and Germany. Final assembly in Solms, Germany by German Citizens.. except for one guy from Pakistan and a woman from France both having dual citizenship in Germany and their respective countries. If you find the support of any of these countries to be counter to your political or religious views, do not buy this camera.

Of course this means there will be no room for the LCD but it's a small price to pay for honesty, right?

Click to expand...

GiovanniB · Sep 14, 2009

Tariq said:
I think in this day an age, using the word "Made in XXX" is misleading unless the entire thing is indeed made in a certain country. I'm sure most of the items I purchase that say "Made in China" are made in China down to the shoe string, copper wire, or whatever. Otherwise, using the correct word "Assembled in XXX" and or "Designed in XXX" is more accurate.

Well, this is certainly a valid argument. "Assembled in XXXX" might indeed be a better replacement for "Made in XXXX" in most cases in an age in which even chicken are often fed with a mixture of ingredients from all over the world.

Tariq said:
Just watch the video and note that at around the 55 sec. mark, the Leica empolyee states the camera they receive comes from Portugal.

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=leica+production+facility+portugal+M8&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Could you post a direct link to the video? The link you gave is a google web search term, not a video ... but I guess it must be somewhere amongst the results.

Jim Radcliffe · Sep 14, 2009

Tariq said:
Jim Radcliffe said:

Tariq said:

I suspect, as has been reported by at least one person, that the X1 is mostly made in Japan though Leica claims it is "Made in Germany". Some could care less where things are made while others may avoid contributing to certain countries for political or personal reasons. They should at least be given enough information to make an accurate choice and not be intentionally mislead.

Click to expand...

Sigh.. Maybe Leica should, on the back of their cameras, place the following in place of the Made in Germany notice.

Made in Japan, Phillipines, Portugal, China, Taiwan, India, Pakistan and Germany. Final assembly in Solms, Germany by German Citizens.. except for one guy from Pakistan and a woman from France both having dual citizenship in Germany and their respective countries. If you find the support of any of these countries to be counter to your political or religious views, do not buy this camera.

Of course this means there will be no room for the LCD but it's a small price to pay for honesty, right?

--
Jim Radcliffe

Click to expand...

Yes, I think they should simply put that on the packaging. Sounds Great and that would make me Happy!

I'm sure that Leica will get right on this for you.

--
Jim Radcliffe
http://www.boxedlight.com
http://www.oceona.com

The ability to 'see' the shot is more important than the gear used to capture it.

GiovanniB · Sep 14, 2009

Tariq said:
Some people vote with their money believe it or not.

sigh...

I don't think it's misleading as long as it's commonly usual to declare a product as "Made in [place of highest value creation share and assembly]".

Since the M9's electronic imaging unit is also made/assembled in Germany (not at Leica in Solms however), I suppose it's safe to assume that in the case of the M9, most of it's overall value is being created in Germany. Thus I'd not hesitate to accept the "Made in Germany" designation as legitimate, no less than the "Made in Thailand" stickers on Nikon equipment, for example, where major components from other places are involved too, of course.

In the case of the X1 the designation on the rear of the camera doesn't say "Made in Germany", but just "Leica Camera Germany". I think this is a subtly different case. Personally I suppose the X1's electronics assembly may be from a different origin than the M9's.

Tariq · Sep 14, 2009

GiovanniB said:
Tariq said:

Some people vote with their money believe it or not.

sigh...

Click to expand...

I don't think it's misleading as long as it's commonly usual to declare a product as "Made in [place of highest value creation share and assembly]".

Since the M9's electronic imaging unit is also made/assembled in Germany (not at Leica in Solms however), I suppose it's safe to assume that in the case of the M9, most of it's overall value is being created in Germany. Thus I'd not hesitate to accept the "Made in Germany" designation as legitimate, no less than the "Made in Thailand" stickers on Nikon equipment, for example, where major components from other places are involved too, of course.

In the case of the X1 the designation on the rear of the camera doesn't say "Made in Germany", but just "Leica Camera Germany". I think this is a subtly different case. Personally I suppose the X1's electronics assembly may be from a different origin than the M9's.

That is interesting about the X1 designation. I wonder if another inscription such as "Made in Japan" will also be on that camera somewhere noticeable.

Leica - Made in Germany

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