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Let's Keeping Our Fading Playing Fields Level.

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Stephen Livick

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Hello Everybody,

I thought I should say a word or two about keeping everything level when it comes to testing our print fade rates. As I know many of you are runnning you own tests which ir simply great.

I use the full sun outside for my tests because it causes fade at a faster rate. In one day of full shnshine where I live in the northern hemisphere between New York, and Detriot shitties. Just to give you an idea of where my reading are being made.

Outside on a full sunny day I measured the total lux at 2,431,717 over a 12 hour period measured every half hour. From 7AM till 7 PM late August.

I also measured my inside office space to stand in for a home situation. I live and work in my NY style studio. The office room faces north west and has four venetian blinded windows the blinds were down and half closed during the actual testing. The inside total for the same day was 18,005 Lux read every half hour.

So one outside day in my case is equivelent to 135 inside days or 19 weeks.

My gray card readings inside in the middle of the room averaged ISO 200 at F 5.6 with a shutter speed about 1/15, speed is averaged out from all the readings.

If YOUR inside house readings from a gray card are ISO 200 F5.6 with a speed of 1/8 then it's 270 days or 38 weeks inside to be equivelent to one 12 hour day of full sunshine. That's 435 Lux inside and close to what the big time testers use for their fading tests.

If you should have 1/4 of a second exposures when you read your inside space of course averaged throught the day then its 540 days or 77 weeks for one outside day of UV exposure. You would have 218 Lux inside.

The standard used for extroplating out the test results is 50 LUX or 1 second shutter speeds at ISO 200 and F5.6 read from a gray card normal lens on your camera.

OR 2350 inside days 6.4 years for every one 12 hour full sun shine outside.

50 lux is very dim and I would be surprised if any of you actually live in that lighting all the time it's just like twilight.

So I thought I would mention this just to keep the fade test measuring on an even keel.

I test outside to know that if a print fades badly in say.. hypothetically.. 100 hours or 12 days at 8 hours of sun per day averaged out. It will then fade in 1350 hours inside my particular 782 Lux averaged out office space. Or 168 days or 24 weeks give or take.

Hope this make sense for everybody ; )

By the way the best time to read is between 11 AM and 2 PM for an average daytime inside light level. And get a gray card from your camera shop and read on spot metering. Some of you may have incident light meters that's even better. And a few lucky ones will have lux reading meters you are the "lucky" one amongst us ; )

Stephen

--
On A Quest Seeking Vision!

http://www.livick.com
 
Helo Again

I was going to mention that to see what your Canon PPP prints will look like 25 years from now just give them 34 days outside in the full sun 12 hours a day.

That's calculated out on your having ISO 200 F 5.6 and shutter speed of 1/8 of a second inside read froma gray card. OR a 435 Lux reading inside where the print sits on the wall.

OF course if you have lower light reading inside you will require less time outside. 1/4 of a second shutter speed at F5.6 and ISO 200 only requires 17 days in the full sun 12 hours a day. Because the fade level will be much slower inside at that 218 Lux level.

And yes we do know about the UV situation ; )

Stephen
--
On A Quest Seeking Vision!

http://www.livick.com
 
Stephen,

You are talking about light/UV fading only. What about gas fading?

I think that many of us who have experienced very short term colour changes or fading are experiencing gas fading, not light fading. In my case prints at three very different light levels in the house (south facing window to back of a dark room) all started fading at the same time. To me this suggests very strongly that in this particular case light levels are not a significant factor in the time scale (12 days) in which colour changes are taking place.

My tests are therefore aimed at trying to find a combination of paper/ink/protective spray that will minimise short term gas fading on prints. I may then have to worry about longer term light fading.
--
Chris R
 
Stephen
Get a life!!!

Or better yet an Epson 2000p or 2200!!! All that time you spent figuring out how long it will take to fade can now be spent photographing!
Enjoy,
John
 
Hello Chris

It is the light and UV levels and not gas fading, personally I simply do not buy into that. Measure your light levels please. Canon PPP prints are VERY light unstable ...VERY.

One day in high light levels makes a difference, I have watched print fade occur in only day with high lux reading levels.

Do some Lux readings. See here for what to do... scroll down the page for the reading levels and read your light levels. Anything you have above 50 Lux fades the prints. That's 1 second shutter speed at F5.6 with 200 ISO. Find that type of light and anything brighter fades the Canon PPP prints.

http://www.livick.com/method/inkjet/pg2.htm

The gas fading issue is totally off track in my opinion.

Stephen
Chris R-UK said:
Stephen,

You are talking about light/UV fading only. What about gas fading?

I think that many of us who have experienced very short term colour
changes or fading are experiencing gas fading, not light fading.
In my case prints at three very different light levels in the house
(south facing window to back of a dark room) all started fading at
the same time. To me this suggests very strongly that in this
particular case light levels are not a significant factor in the
time scale (12 days) in which colour changes are taking place.

My tests are therefore aimed at trying to find a combination of
paper/ink/protective spray that will minimise short term gas fading
on prints. I may then have to worry about longer term light fading.
--
Chris R
Click to expand...
--
On A Quest Seeking Vision!

http://www.livick.com
 
Stephen,

Don't get a life like some poster suggested. Info like you just gave is beneficial to some of us. I mean if you don't want to photograph, then by all means do something concerning it.

Now since you have free time, go out and pour some gas on them and see how long it takes to fade. But make sure you let us know what gas you use.

I don't have my s900 let, so I don't have any gas fading experience yet. But I'm sure I will experience it next week....

--

Mr. Pickles
 
Hello John

This is my whole life, it's been that way since 1953 or so when I got my first Kodak Box Brownie.

And I do have the Epson 2200, a great printer with an Achilles Heel, a weak yellow ink. Testing showed me that fact.

What more can I say ; )

Stephen
John Dixon said:
Stephen
Get a life!!!
Or better yet an Epson 2000p or 2200!!! All that time you spent
figuring out how long it will take to fade can now be spent
photographing!
Enjoy,
John
Click to expand...
--
On A Quest Seeking Vision!

http://www.livick.com
 
Hello Mr Pickles,

What kind of pickle are you ; ) I assume you name is a put on of course, apologies if not.

You mean to say you purchased a Canon s900 printer, my, my, you poor little Pickle there, there now.

; )

Stephen
Mr. Pickles said:
Stephen,

Don't get a life like some poster suggested. Info like you just
gave is beneficial to some of us. I mean if you don't want to
photograph, then by all means do something concerning it.

Now since you have free time, go out and pour some gas on them and
see how long it takes to fade. But make sure you let us know what
gas you use.

I don't have my s900 let, so I don't have any gas fading experience
yet. But I'm sure I will experience it next week....

--

Mr. Pickles
Click to expand...
--
On A Quest Seeking Vision!

http://www.livick.com
 
Wow Stephen,

You did again! Thanks for the breakdown (and for doing the calculus)! What more can I say?

--
Fotografer
 
Hello All,

I took my dog to te park and suddenly while there realized I had made a mistake in mental calculations or made a small type o.

"I test outside to know that if a print fades badly in say.. hypothetically.. 100 hours or 12 days at 8 hours of sun per day averaged out. It will then fade in 1350 hours inside my particular 782 Lux averaged out office space. Or 168 days or 24 weeks give or take."

This should really read 13, 500 hours or 1687 days or 241 weeks 60 months.

Sorry but I luckily caught it . It really doesn't pay to do calculations in your head while at the same time you type with one finger looking at the keyboard all the time, while thinking of just what to say ; )

Stephen

On A Quest Seeking Vision!

http://www.livick.com
 
Hi Stephen,

Hope you like pickles! Okay, jokes aside, how would you rate the present Canon PPP with their inks? Or did you print Epson 2200 inks onto the PPP?

BTW, from the results you already have (you said yellow is already beginning to fade on the 28(?)th day of your test, how much would you reckon that to be under your room condition, or someone's average room condition (with lux reading between say 250 to 300 - on the high side)?

Thank you.

--
Fotografer
 
Wow!!! You did all that with mental calculation? What are you made of? ;)
Stephen Livick said:
Hello All,

I took my dog to te park and suddenly while there realized I had
made a mistake in mental calculations or made a small type o.

"I test outside to know that if a print fades badly in say..
hypothetically.. 100 hours or 12 days at 8 hours of sun per day
averaged out. It will then fade in 1350 hours inside my particular
782 Lux averaged out office space. Or 168 days or 24 weeks give or
take."

This should really read 13, 500 hours or 1687 days or 241 weeks 60
months.

Sorry but I luckily caught it . It really doesn't pay to do
calculations in your head while at the same time you type with one
finger looking at the keyboard all the time, while thinking of
just what to say ; )

Stephen

On A Quest Seeking Vision!

http://www.livick.com
Click to expand...
--
Fotografer
 
uv, atmospheric gases, and contaminants can ALL cause or promote fading; and in combination they'll do it faster

dyes may even react with themselves or with other dyes, and with the constituents of the media (brightening agents for instance)

if you doubt 'gas fading' just refer to epson's problems with ozone sensitivity, look here to read their own words on it... http://www.epson.co.nz/whats_new/story_71.html

there's nothing unique about epson's dyes, all dyes are vulnerable
 
I think we all have a lot to learn in this area. You are doing a good job by trying to make real-world tests. However, the gas-fading IS a big problem with the dye printers. I have personally seen a few of my prints from my older 1270 fade in a very short time when left exposed to air but without much light at all. You need to know the history from the time the "orange shift" was first detected on the 1270. A lot depends on HOW the print is fading. For example, with the "orange shift" problem, the cyan ink fading quite rapidly - not because of light - but because of air. This caused the print to look "orangish" in color - especially in darker areas of the photo. This is a totally separate issue from UV fading.

Keep up the good work though... I think you are learning a lot and so are we. I'll be even more interested when you get your UV meter and actually determine how much UV is being emitted to prints indoors.

Travis
 
Your calculations seem sound and all, but is this really a PROVEN method of calculating fading times? I mean, you can bake a pizza at 425 degrees F for 20 minutes, but you can't crank it to 950 degrees and expect it to finish in 10 minutes.
Stephen Livick said:
Hello Everybody,

I thought I should say a word or two about keeping everything level
when it comes to testing our print fade rates. As I know many of
you are runnning you own tests which ir simply great.

I use the full sun outside for my tests because it causes fade at a
faster rate. In one day of full shnshine where I live in the
northern hemisphere between New York, and Detriot shitties. Just
to give you an idea of where my reading are being made.

Outside on a full sunny day I measured the total lux at 2,431,717
over a 12 hour period measured every half hour. From 7AM till 7 PM
late August.

I also measured my inside office space to stand in for a home
situation. I live and work in my NY style studio. The office room
faces north west and has four venetian blinded windows the blinds
were down and half closed during the actual testing. The inside
total for the same day was 18,005 Lux read every half hour.

So one outside day in my case is equivelent to 135 inside days or
19 weeks.

My gray card readings inside in the middle of the room averaged
ISO 200 at F 5.6 with a shutter speed about 1/15, speed is
averaged out from all the readings.

If YOUR inside house readings from a gray card are ISO 200 F5.6
with a speed of 1/8 then it's 270 days or 38 weeks inside to be
equivelent to one 12 hour day of full sunshine. That's 435 Lux
inside and close to what the big time testers use for their fading
tests.

If you should have 1/4 of a second exposures when you read your
inside space of course averaged throught the day then its 540 days
or 77 weeks for one outside day of UV exposure. You would have 218
Lux inside.

The standard used for extroplating out the test results is 50 LUX
or 1 second shutter speeds at ISO 200 and F5.6 read from a gray
card normal lens on your camera.

OR 2350 inside days 6.4 years for every one 12 hour full sun shine
outside.

50 lux is very dim and I would be surprised if any of you actually
live in that lighting all the time it's just like twilight.

So I thought I would mention this just to keep the fade test
measuring on an even keel.

I test outside to know that if a print fades badly in say..
hypothetically.. 100 hours or 12 days at 8 hours of sun per day
averaged out. It will then fade in 1350 hours inside my particular
782 Lux averaged out office space. Or 168 days or 24 weeks give or
take.

Hope this make sense for everybody ; )

By the way the best time to read is between 11 AM and 2 PM for an
average daytime inside light level. And get a gray card from your
camera shop and read on spot metering. Some of you may have
incident light meters that's even better. And a few lucky ones
will have lux reading meters you are the "lucky" one amongst us ; )

Stephen

--
On A Quest Seeking Vision!

http://www.livick.com
Click to expand...
 
Excellent point! On the other hand, if a pizza is fully cooked in 20 minutes at 425 degrees, then what if we lower the temp to say, 90 degrees - will it ever cook?
Brian Cao said:
Stephen Livick said:
Hello Everybody,

I thought I should say a word or two about keeping everything level
when it comes to testing our print fade rates. As I know many of
you are runnning you own tests which ir simply great.

I use the full sun outside for my tests because it causes fade at a
faster rate. In one day of full shnshine where I live in the
northern hemisphere between New York, and Detriot shitties. Just
to give you an idea of where my reading are being made.

Outside on a full sunny day I measured the total lux at 2,431,717
over a 12 hour period measured every half hour. From 7AM till 7 PM
late August.

I also measured my inside office space to stand in for a home
situation. I live and work in my NY style studio. The office room
faces north west and has four venetian blinded windows the blinds
were down and half closed during the actual testing. The inside
total for the same day was 18,005 Lux read every half hour.

So one outside day in my case is equivelent to 135 inside days or
19 weeks.

My gray card readings inside in the middle of the room averaged
ISO 200 at F 5.6 with a shutter speed about 1/15, speed is
averaged out from all the readings.

If YOUR inside house readings from a gray card are ISO 200 F5.6
with a speed of 1/8 then it's 270 days or 38 weeks inside to be
equivelent to one 12 hour day of full sunshine. That's 435 Lux
inside and close to what the big time testers use for their fading
tests.

If you should have 1/4 of a second exposures when you read your
inside space of course averaged throught the day then its 540 days
or 77 weeks for one outside day of UV exposure. You would have 218
Lux inside.

The standard used for extroplating out the test results is 50 LUX
or 1 second shutter speeds at ISO 200 and F5.6 read from a gray
card normal lens on your camera.

OR 2350 inside days 6.4 years for every one 12 hour full sun shine
outside.

50 lux is very dim and I would be surprised if any of you actually
live in that lighting all the time it's just like twilight.

So I thought I would mention this just to keep the fade test
measuring on an even keel.

I test outside to know that if a print fades badly in say..
hypothetically.. 100 hours or 12 days at 8 hours of sun per day
averaged out. It will then fade in 1350 hours inside my particular
782 Lux averaged out office space. Or 168 days or 24 weeks give or
take.

Hope this make sense for everybody ; )

By the way the best time to read is between 11 AM and 2 PM for an
average daytime inside light level. And get a gray card from your
camera shop and read on spot metering. Some of you may have
incident light meters that's even better. And a few lucky ones
will have lux reading meters you are the "lucky" one amongst us ; )

Stephen

--
On A Quest Seeking Vision!

http://www.livick.com
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Hello Travis and All

According To Bill Waterson who is kindly supplying the UV and Lux meters as I am a starving photo artist who eats very well inspite of my starving status ; ) They are on their way to him by mail. When he gets them will forward me a set for our joint fading venture, all under Bill's expertise in setting up a print fade out model.

So in not too long a time from now we should be able, both Bill and myself to do proper UV readings and let you all know what we find out.

I am anxious to accurately read the UV outside and inside behind glass and to do the math in that area and come up with a logical and accurate way of telling how long a particular print and ink should last on your wall, at a certain lighting level of course.

I feel that the gas fading issue is blown way out of proportion to its actual impact. That's just my 2 cents worth of opinion in having dealt with ink jet prints for about four or is it five years now?

And having tested out dye sub prints and laser in the mid 90s and some older printers, the famed Iris printer for example in the late 1970s. And the colour in colour 3M printers in the mid 70s

Not to mention the chromogenic colour processes in the late 60s and all the archival older processes I have woirked with as well.

Stephen
Travis said:
I think we all have a lot to learn in this area. You are doing a
good job by trying to make real-world tests. However, the
gas-fading IS a big problem with the dye printers. I have
personally seen a few of my prints from my older 1270 fade in a
very short time when left exposed to air but without much light at
all. You need to know the history from the time the "orange shift"
was first detected on the 1270. A lot depends on HOW the print is
fading. For example, with the "orange shift" problem, the cyan ink
fading quite rapidly - not because of light - but because of air.
This caused the print to look "orangish" in color - especially in
darker areas of the photo. This is a totally separate issue from
UV fading.

Keep up the good work though... I think you are learning a lot and
so are we. I'll be even more interested when you get your UV meter
and actually determine how much UV is being emitted to prints
indoors.

Travis
Click to expand...
--
On A Quest Seeking Vision!

http://www.livick.com
 
Brian Cao said:
Your calculations seem sound and all, but is this really a PROVEN
method of calculating fading times? I mean, you can bake a pizza
at 425 degrees F for 20 minutes, but you can't crank it to 950
degrees and expect it to finish in 10 minutes.
Click to expand...
accelerated testing of simple uv fading by pumping up the intensity is generally ok

when the uv intensity reaches the point that thermal effects occur it is probably too high; also high intensity uv sources may include shorter wavelengths (higher energy photons) that are not present in a real environment, this could introduce effects that would not occur normally

pure uv fading is not the only mechanism involved, i.e. fading when there is, say, an oxidant molecule near a dye molecule and an incident uv photon provides the necessary energy for the two to react - this fading reaction is a light-catalysed oxidation, rather than just dye destruction due to uv energy breaking a bond in the dye molecule

if the rate at which these oxidants permeate the media is too low to replenish those that have reacted with dye then the accelerated uv test will give an optimistic prediction, in real life the slower reaction rate probably means that depletion will not occur - so the real life rate of fading will be higher than the test predicted

any fading test that runs faster than life is just a prediction, it'll be right for some, wrong for others
 
Hi Fotographer

I had sample Canon prints sent to me printed on PPP paper, I noticed some fade happening rather quickly on the first day of UV exposure. How I would rate them, that's a loaded question on this forum do you want to get me strung up?? Let's just say I wouldn't use it myself and would have if it were more stable than Epson as I have NO ties to any one ink jet manufacturer. Who's ever is best that's the one I go with.

The yellow in the Epson 2200 is fugitive, that's what we are talking about now, that much I already know. I am doing more tests right now ..... if you haven't been there already.

http://www.livick.com/methods/inkjet/pg1.htm

And will be able to tell you how long they will really last on your wall under certain lighting conditions perhaps by the end of September with any luck. But I do not think at this moment they will last as long as Epson claims they will.

My guess at 350 Lux of inside lighting and the Epson 2200 output and I am going out on a tiny winie little limb here just to please you Fotographer, about 7 to 8 years inside at that light level. Please don't quote me now that's just my rough guess on it at this early time in the fade testing. Of course longer if the lighting level is lower the lower it is, the longer the prints will last. That's a simple fact.

But please be sure to ask me again in the end of September and I will have a much more accurate prediction for you by then.

Stephen
fotografer said:
Hi Stephen,

Hope you like pickles! Okay, jokes aside, how would you rate the
present Canon PPP with their inks? Or did you print Epson 2200 inks
onto the PPP?

BTW, from the results you already have (you said yellow is already
beginning to fade on the 28(?)th day of your test, how much would
you reckon that to be under your room condition, or someone's
average room condition (with lux reading between say 250 to 300 -
on the high side)?

Thank you.

--
Fotografer
Click to expand...
--
On A Quest Seeking Vision!

http://www.livick.com
 
A Very Good Point Brian

Most of my personal acquaintences who have big Epson machines and do the testing ocasionally for me completely poo hoo me a total and complete dismissal of my findings. And always quote the Wilhelm data of two years ago completely dismissing the faded out prints in front of them.

I saw an ad today where the person lied twice, a friend of mine no less, called his ink jet prints Giclee prints and quoted 150 years life span on archival papers. And he is using the Generation 4 inks which faded the quickest of the pigmented colour inks I tested out. I tested his inks and his papers printed in his machine, and he completely dismissed the tests, the ad was in an art magazine.

Don't worry Brian we will get to the bottom of it in due course.

Stephen

stephen
Brian Cao said:
Stephen Livick said:
Hello Everybody,

I thought I should say a word or two about keeping everything level
when it comes to testing our print fade rates. As I know many of
you are runnning you own tests which ir simply great.

I use the full sun outside for my tests because it causes fade at a
faster rate. In one day of full shnshine where I live in the
northern hemisphere between New York, and Detriot shitties. Just
to give you an idea of where my reading are being made.

Outside on a full sunny day I measured the total lux at 2,431,717
over a 12 hour period measured every half hour. From 7AM till 7 PM
late August.

I also measured my inside office space to stand in for a home
situation. I live and work in my NY style studio. The office room
faces north west and has four venetian blinded windows the blinds
were down and half closed during the actual testing. The inside
total for the same day was 18,005 Lux read every half hour.

So one outside day in my case is equivelent to 135 inside days or
19 weeks.

My gray card readings inside in the middle of the room averaged
ISO 200 at F 5.6 with a shutter speed about 1/15, speed is
averaged out from all the readings.

If YOUR inside house readings from a gray card are ISO 200 F5.6
with a speed of 1/8 then it's 270 days or 38 weeks inside to be
equivelent to one 12 hour day of full sunshine. That's 435 Lux
inside and close to what the big time testers use for their fading
tests.

If you should have 1/4 of a second exposures when you read your
inside space of course averaged throught the day then its 540 days
or 77 weeks for one outside day of UV exposure. You would have 218
Lux inside.

The standard used for extroplating out the test results is 50 LUX
or 1 second shutter speeds at ISO 200 and F5.6 read from a gray
card normal lens on your camera.

OR 2350 inside days 6.4 years for every one 12 hour full sun shine
outside.

50 lux is very dim and I would be surprised if any of you actually
live in that lighting all the time it's just like twilight.

So I thought I would mention this just to keep the fade test
measuring on an even keel.

I test outside to know that if a print fades badly in say..
hypothetically.. 100 hours or 12 days at 8 hours of sun per day
averaged out. It will then fade in 1350 hours inside my particular
782 Lux averaged out office space. Or 168 days or 24 weeks give or
take.

Hope this make sense for everybody ; )

By the way the best time to read is between 11 AM and 2 PM for an
average daytime inside light level. And get a gray card from your
camera shop and read on spot metering. Some of you may have
incident light meters that's even better. And a few lucky ones
will have lux reading meters you are the "lucky" one amongst us ; )

Stephen

--
On A Quest Seeking Vision!

http://www.livick.com
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
On A Quest Seeking Vision!

http://www.livick.com
 
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