Optimal exposure?

Allinthemind

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With the S5 set to maximum DR and RAW. Has anyone experimented to find the optimal exposure compared to an external lightmeter to mix the S and R pixels?

I can take 3 shots a stop apart and make them all look similar (skies can be problematic with the small pixels sometimes).

I'm currently dialling in +2/3rds against the internal meter.

Si
 
there is no right answer, it depends. How much contrast in the scene, are you looking into the light or away from the light, is the scene predominantly light or predominantly dark. Is your external metre correct or faultly?

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Phil A
FCAS Member #100
http://www.pbase.com/philinnz http://www.open2view.com
 
If you really want to go to the edge of the fuji in overexposure then do a metering for the brightest highlights bring it 4 stops down and take the shot.

I have recovered quite some pictures very nicely with this when I had to shoot indoors with the performance standing for big windows.
 
there is no right answer, it depends. How much contrast in the scene, are you looking into the light or away from the light, is the scene predominantly light or predominantly dark. Is your external metre correct or faultly?

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Phil A
FCAS Member #100
http://www.pbase.com/philinnz http://www.open2view.com
Hi Phil, Of course those things will be taken into consideration for the exposure choice but for now....

Forget contrast, forget scene brightness, forget direction of light, assume meter is accurate. Assume a grey guy with a grey coat on a grey day if you like. I'm interested in differences in mixing the pixels from a RAW file. RPP, ACR are my developers of choice and I'm wondering if anyone has actually tested the different S/R mixes in final IQ.

Thanks muchly

Si
 
If you really want to go to the edge of the fuji in overexposure then do a metering for the brightest highlights bring it 4 stops down and take the shot.

I have recovered quite some pictures very nicely with this when I had to shoot indoors with the performance standing for big windows.
:)

Now we're cooking. I've tried various exposure choices (ends up making the S5 incredibly hungry for bright conditions), I too find 4 stops is topping out. Best IQ from a low-contrast scene comes with just the big pixels, but... I'm interested in any tests done already.

Cheers

Si
 
Hi Simon long time no speak, I'm continually dialing in between 2/3 & 2 stops over exposure depending on DR in scene. I find one of the most important things is to stay away from the highlight recovery slider in ACR and some times to process two files ,one for shadows & one for highlights then blend afterwards.
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Tony G-J.
 
I have not run systematic tests but I do shoot a lot of frames. I think you have to adjust your camera based on the conditions you encounter.

A late afternoon direct sun with a shimmering white dress on it and a groom standing next to said white dress in a black tux and standing in the shade will be a lot different than that same dress and same groom with both standing in full open shade. In the former you need al the help you can get in the highlights and better shoot for almost no over exposure and in the latter I dial the DR back and shoot about 1 stop over.

So, my opinion, based on thousands of exposures per week for quite a while now is that there is no single setting or set of conditions you can use universally. If there were you could put the formula in a point and shoot and fire away at will and so far, there is no point and shoot that can match what can be delivered with careful planning of lighting and exposure.
 
I'm interested in differences in mixing the pixels from a RAW file. RPP, ACR are my developers of choice and I'm wondering if anyone has actually tested the different S/R mixes in final IQ.
You cannot alter the S/R mix in ACR. This is what Thomas Knoll tells us:

http://forums.adobe.com/message/1215386#1215386

The mix is independent of ACR or camera settings.

You can alter the mix in HU or Silkypix. I don't know about RPP.

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Hi Simon long time no speak, I'm continually dialing in between 2/3 & 2 stops over exposure depending on DR in scene. I find one of the most important things is to stay away from the highlight recovery slider in ACR and some times to process two files ,one for shadows & one for highlights then blend afterwards.
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Tony G-J.
Thanks Tony, I shall try that. I've not explained myself at all well here. Apologies.

I shall try again:

As the S5 at full width has such a wide capture, we can expose the same shot (let's take the bride and groom in shade example) in a number of ways.

We can set the highlight at say +3 stops or +2 stops (assume raw and that the shot will need bending for mid-tones in PP). Now one of these shots uses more of the small (and noisy) pixels versus the large pixels compared to the other (at the sensor at least and therefore in the ACR interpretation).

If I shoot our B&G in shade just using the large pixels, I can capture this range easily and don't introduce the noisy pixels. I believe (could be completely wrong), that there will be an optimal exposure that has mostly large pixel information with some small pixel that is the sweet spot. Again, I could be talking out of the very top of my legs. :) Just a thought. I don't use the S5 in anger, it's been my backup body but I find the camera itself fascinating and like it as a walkabout (with the 18-105 lens).

Example: Blue skies - If I use the small pixels, I can get quite a bit of noise in blue skies (even at low iso) if the skies are around 1 stop brighter than mid-grey.

If I shoot my Mac Mouse (white and shiny), I can see the join where the small pixels are overlaying the large pixels as it approaches white (more visible in jpgs and HU3 than ACR interestingly), RPP the join is invisible.

I'm probably not making much sense. It's something to do with balancing the small noisy pixels with the larger cleaner pixels using exposure choice.

All best

Si
 
Hi Simon, I guess its a case of where do you want your noise, its always lurking there somewhere , it just moves around. If the D700 raw wasn't so processed it would be in there to. Don't get me wrong it is well processed, would love one , just can't justify it to myself yet. I'm presently using 3-4 different cameras, still love the D1x for certain things. I figure slightly noisy highlight detail is better than none. Most of my shots go to CMYK , smallish , with a screen so it really doesn't bother me. Very rarely look at 100%, the lack of detail scares me. It is predominantly my Lens Baby Camera as is my D1x with my other LB. What I guess I'm saying is if it aint in the 1\4 tones its in the 3\4 tones. But yes those little pixels can be a bit ugly some times. Tony.

Ps . I think the optimum use of them is affect the roll off.
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Tony G-J.
 
Simon have you tried shooting a grey card increasing exposure by half stop increments with and without R&S pixels . Comparing how & when they fall off and kick in, then work backwards to obtain the optimum exposure setting. In theory that should work for highlight graduations. Color info would probably be a different kettle of fish. Especially when it comes to the blue channel,seems they all dump their refuse in that channel. Just a thought, seems like an easy way to check. Each raw converter will obviously give you different results.

I guess when I shoot with the fuji I tend to expose for the subject with little regard for the highlights. Sorta like I did with kodachrome. With my nikons, I tend to expose always mindful of what the highlights are doing. Like E6. Some times the noise you are referring to is blatantly obvious especially in a high key situation and I am trying to recover to much over exposure for that situation.

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Tony G-J.
 
Hi Si

I have refrained from commenting because I have not done the experiments you mentioned in your OP.

But I cannot see much point in forcing the R pixels to become activated in a scene whose DR is within the capability of the S pixels. The reason for the R pixels is to extend the highlight DR. The situation hos describes is surely what the R pixels are for.

Equally, I see little to be gained in trying to relate your R-pixel-using-exposure to the reading of the internal meter or an external light meter. The internal meter is giving an average value for the whole scene. What you need to be considering is spot metering the shadows and highlights separately and seeing what the total DR of the scene is. For less than a certain value (probably about 7 stops), you can fit everything into the S pixels.

I always use manual exposure anyway and only ever use spot metering. I simply ensure that the highlights are not more than 2.5 stops above mid grey if I want to retain any detail in them. 3 stops if I want them white and on the verge of blowing. 3.5 stops if I want them pure white. Any more than that and the falloff will be artefacted. I don't believe in "recovery".

The external meter is usually metering incident light, yes? And it is therefore telling you the exposure that will make an 18% grey card mid grey in that light. This is no help for the use of R pixels. If you only need to capture objects lit by incident light, the metered exposure will do that happily with S pixels alone, as far as highlights are concerned. The problems come when you actually include a light source (or specular highlights) in your scene. I mean, shooting a scene that includes the ball of the sun is a different matter from shooting under the incident light of the sun. Or, less extreme, shooting a scene that includes bright sky can also exceed the DR capability of S pixels.

You mention noise from the R pixels in sky that is only about 1 stop over mid grey. Yes, I would expect the R pixels to be noisy at that light level because they are about two stops less sensitive than the S pixels as well as whole lot smaller. But I am wondering if the fact that you see the noise is due to the way ACR blends the R and S pixels. I haven't consciously checked for that phenomenon in HU. But I would suggest that a raw converter that treats the R pixels sensibly should not be blending them in at all when the lightness is only a stop over mid grey. I think this problem is because ACR blends them in regardless of whether or not they are needed. Whereas they should be used only for highlight DR extension. The blend should be examining the signal level of the R and S pixels at an image location and its neighbouring locations and making an algorithmic decision about how to blend so as to get maximum DR, minimum noise and smoothest tonal gradient.

So I think that using a different raw converter from your favourite choice might well remove the need to look for exposures that do, or do not, fire those little R pixels and instead allow them to be used for their intended purpose of highlight extension.

I routinely use HU and I have it permanently at 400% DR. But I am fairly confident that it does not blend in the R pixels 1 stop over mid grey. Probably....

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Hi Si

I have refrained from commenting because I have not done the experiments you mentioned in your OP.

But I cannot see much point in forcing the R pixels to become activated in a scene whose DR is within the capability of the S pixels. The reason for the R pixels is to extend the highlight DR. The situation hos describes is surely what the R pixels are for.
Agreed Mr CP. I'd rather turn the R pixels off for a number of reasons. They do serve a useful purpose in scenes with a large subject brightness range and when shooting on the hoof/auto.
Equally, I see little to be gained in trying to relate your R-pixel-using-exposure to the reading of the internal meter or an external light meter. The internal meter is giving an average value for the whole scene. What you need to be considering is spot metering the shadows and highlights separately and seeing what the total DR of the scene is. For less than a certain value (probably about 7 stops), you can fit everything into the S pixels.

I always use manual exposure anyway and only ever use spot metering. I simply ensure that the highlights are not more than 2.5 stops above mid grey if I want to retain any detail in them. 3 stops if I want them white and on the verge of blowing. 3.5 stops if I want them pure white. Any more than that and the falloff will be artefacted. I don't believe in "recovery".
Again, I agree when there is time for the analysis and on manual. Most DSLRs +2 stops is the end of the highlight detail with another stop to fade to white. The fuji has that bit extra.
The external meter is usually metering incident light, yes? And it is therefore telling you the exposure that will make an 18% grey card mid grey in that light. This is no help for the use of R pixels. If you only need to capture objects lit by incident light, the metered exposure will do that happily with S pixels alone, as far as highlights are concerned. The problems come when you actually include a light source (or specular highlights) in your scene. I mean, shooting a scene that includes the ball of the sun is a different matter from shooting under the incident light of the sun. Or, less extreme, shooting a scene that includes bright sky can also exceed the DR capability of S pixels.
..And often the R pixels if it's specular
You mention noise from the R pixels in sky that is only about 1 stop over mid grey. Yes, I would expect the R pixels to be noisy at that light level because they are about two stops less sensitive than the S pixels as well as whole lot smaller. But I am wondering if the fact that you see the noise is due to the way ACR blends the R and S pixels.
Almost definitely, I see it in OOC jpgs too but usually in lighter tones than ACR.

I haven't consciously checked for that phenomenon in HU. But I would suggest that a raw converter that treats the R pixels sensibly should not be blending them in at all when the lightness is only a stop over mid grey. I think this problem is because ACR blends them in regardless of whether or not they are needed.

Yes, I think this is it. When I had a PC I used S7Raw and treated each set of pixels and blended (bit fiddly but gave great results).

Whereas they should be used only for highlight DR extension. The blend should be examining the signal level of the R and S pixels at an image location and its neighbouring locations and making an algorithmic decision about how to blend so as to get maximum DR, minimum noise and smoothest tonal gradient.

That would be perfect.
So I think that using a different raw converter from your favourite choice might well remove the need to look for exposures that do, or do not, fire those little R pixels and instead allow them to be used for their intended purpose of highlight extension.

I routinely use HU and I have it permanently at 400% DR. But I am fairly confident that it does not blend in the R pixels 1 stop over mid grey. Probably....
I can't use HU on the MAC, I really don't have that amount of patience :) I have tested it though. The "Join" is higher up the tonal range but it's still there (I suppose it has to be somewhere).
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Hello Stephen, hope all is well for you. This is really just my continued fascination with this camera. In auto mode, I tend to stick in +2/3rds and use CW metering (like the old film camera days) with a little bit of AE lock if appropriate, or spot metering in manual (and time permits). By lifting the exposure, I'm effectively losing some shutter speed over other cameras but I'm lifting the shadows out of the noise well. I suppose it's a balance really as to where and how much noise there is.

I'll shuttup now, I really shouldn't think out loud before thinking. :)

All best

Si
 
Hey Guys before you go any further I think you should check out the relationship between noise & detail in shadows & midtones and the effect of over exposure . If you can pump an extra 3 stops into your exposure and retain highlight detail you've got it made. Thats nearly the fuji's coolest trick,you can pull its exposure right down in the processor and adjust the quarter tones and still have the numbers to do so.

With the nikons ,Ok they've removed the noise but you're still working with 1s&2s.

Why do you need a spot meter to check DR you have a histogram.
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Tony G-J.
 
Hi Si,

Yes thanks. I am well.

I think we are in agreement over what is going on with this exposure malarkey.

How about one of your lovely model shots to show what a well controlled Fuji can do?

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I have a home on pbase
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If you have the time to look
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Why do you need a spot meter to check DR you have a histogram.
Absolutely right! I only mentioned metering because Si did. My favourite lenses (Zeiss) on my favourite camera(S3) don't give any metering at all, so there is only the histogram. I never really miss the metering. Even with CPU lenses, I find I use the metering merely to get a ballpark starting point for exposure but I rely on the histogram.

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I have a home on pbase
http://www.pbase.com/claypaws/
If you have the time to look
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I mention the heat because the chips are definitely noisier in summer here in OZ.

Simon another idea to adjust where your S pixels cut in, adjust using ASA .i.e. set asa at 400 expose at 80asa or there abouts.
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Tony G-J.
 

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