Why no LOWER ISO?

YSFlight

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I'm sure there's a technical reason, but I haven't heard of it...why is extra low ISO so rare? With the new FZ35, in bright light, even ISO80 gives shutter speeds of over 1/100secs....surely, even ISO40 would work?

The lowest I've ever heard of was ISO64, on a Nikon I believe...
 
Because higher ISO's are prioritised, and it is easier to achieve them with a higher base ISO. Darker exposures can be achieved with faster shutter speeds or ND filters.
--
Nico Burns, uk
http://nico.bagano.com
 
The lowest I've ever heard of was ISO64, on a Nikon I believe...
Let's go for the low record, my ancient Olympus C-730 when set to Auto ISO has recorded ISO 49 at times. The C-730 usual settable low limit is ISO 100.

My Ricoh R3 and R4 have an ISO 64 setting but Auto ISO will not go below ISO 64.

For technical reasons unknown to me, sensors seem to be optimised for a certain speed. The latest Olympus 4/3 cameras seem to work best at ISO 200 even though they can be set to ISO 100.

Regards........... Guy
 
The old Canon G1 had an ISO of 50, and it was guessed to be the reason for its high (for the time) image quality.

That's the lowest I know of, except my old pal, Kodachrome ASA 10 slide film.

As far as the response that said you can achieve darker photos with a ND filter or higher shutter speed, sure, and you can get a wider angle by adding on a WA lens, but that doesn't mean it's not nicer to have it built in. And at times slow shutter speeds are desirable.

When I first got my FZ50, I compared photos and found that base ISO100 on the '50 was just about equal in quality to the FZ30's base ISO80. But I never understood why they didn't keep the ISO80 capability for the '50 and have (maybe) even better quality. Or why not an ISO50.
--
Gary
Photo albums: http://www.pbase.com/roberthouse
 
The earlier Canon Gs were more sensitive than the indicated ISO, so the ISO 50 was more like ISO 80~100 on other cameras. I think that remained the case until the G6.
The old Canon G1 had an ISO of 50, and it was guessed to be the reason for its high (for the time) image quality.

That's the lowest I know of, except my old pal, Kodachrome ASA 10 slide film.
 
The lowest I've ever heard of was ISO64, on a Nikon I believe...
Let's go for the low record, my ancient Olympus C-730 when set to Auto ISO has recorded ISO 49 at times. The C-730 usual settable low limit is ISO 100.
I think my Oly c8080wz has a base ISO of 50, with 64, 80 & 100 selectable in the iso menu as well as 200 & 400...
My Ricoh R3 and R4 have an ISO 64 setting but Auto ISO will not go below ISO 64.

For technical reasons unknown to me, sensors seem to be optimised for a certain speed. The latest Olympus 4/3 cameras seem to work best at ISO 200 even though they can be set to ISO 100.

Regards........... Guy
--
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Tz5aLx3Fz50Fz30C8080wzE100rsC2100uz
 
I'm sure there's a technical reason, but I haven't heard of it...why is extra low ISO so rare?
The photodiodes have a typical sensitivity to light that puts the "native" or "base" ISO in the range 80-100 for digicams, and 100-200 for DSLR's. Even then there is that much of a spread, as digicams' metering is typically calibrated 1/2-1 stop lower than that of DSLR's, so compensating for that, all fall in the 100-200 range.

As manufacturers make their sensors more efficient at capturing light, with smaller electronics, better microlenses, back-illumination, etc, the sensitivity will only increase. This means that the minimum ISO will only increase.

Most people would rather have a more efficient sensor for better high ISO performance, than a less efficient sensor for low ISO performance. You can always throw away photons with a ND filter; you can't get back the ones you didn't capture because the sensor was inefficient at recording them.

--
emil
--



http://theory.uchicago.edu/~ejm/pix/20d/
 
There are good technical reasons, but there still is a design choice to be made. It has to do with how the sensor works and how "ISO" is implemented in a digital imager.

A quick summary of the path taken from photons to "bits":
  • Photons hit the sensor and are converted to electrons (this is a photodiode).
  • The electrons are stored in the pixel (this is typically a capacitor partially formed by the photodiode and any readout transistor). The stored charge of electrons in this capacitance produces a voltage in the pixel. Just think of a capacitor as a bucket that holds electrons just like water - the voltage on the capacitor will just be the level of the "water".
  • At the end of the exposure this voltage/charge is read out by an amplifier - the readout method and amplification depend on whether it is a CCD or CMOS implementation.
  • The amplifier gain combined with the characteristics of the pixel photodiode/capacitor determine the ISO. The amplifier gain is adjustable, the characteristics of the photodiode/capacitor are not. Adjustable ISO is implemented by changing the amplifier gain.
  • This amplified voltage is passed to a analog-to-digital converter which changes the voltage into a number that the camera stores - typically a 12-bit number which means it has 4096 possible levels. Imagine a measuring cup with 4096 measuring lines on it.
A key point here is that the pixel can only store so much charge before it "overflows" - literally starts leaking charge into adjacent pixels. Prior to this occurring other troublesome things happen such as non-linear response. Bottom line is only so much charge, and equivalently so many photons can be shoved into a pixel before it starts to not work properly - just like a measuring cup in your kitchen can only hold so much water. A second key point is that besides the electrons converted from photons in the well there are also additional electrons from a variety of sources that we'd consider noise. Similarly a certain sized measuring cup in your kitchen is only accurate to a certain scale, you wouldn't want to try to use a 1 quart bottle to measure a teaspoon of fluid accurately.

So, how do we adjust ISO? For higher ISO settings the well fills with fewer electrons and we turn up the amplifier on readout. The result is we can use shorter exposures (need less photons) but as we amplify up the resulting voltage we also amplify all those noise electrons. In film terms this is very much like push processing film, you underexpose and overdevelop. It tends to work out much better in the digital world though - but the concept is the same. The limit is really just a question of how much noise you are willing to tolerate.

Well what about lower ISO settings? Well, remember we said that eventually a pixel can get to full and will stop functioning properly. Thus we can't arbitrarily lower the ISO by turning down our amplifier - given enough exposure, and thus photons, the pixel will just stop working properly. We could make the pixel less sensitive to begin with (a lower base ISO) but then our high ISO results would suffer.

So that's how things are limited, a pixel can only hold so much charge which sets the lower ISO limit and it contains a certain amount of noise which sets the upper limit.

There is one final trick possible, you could put a ND filter in front of the imager. Most folks put this on the outside of the lens, but a few cameras include one in between the lens and the imager. I believe the Canon G9/10/11 do this.

Hopefully that was vaguely understandable.
--
Ken W

Rebel XT, XTi, Pany LX-3, FZ-28, Fuji F30, and a lot of 35mm and 4x5 sitting in the closet...
 
Actually, I think that's one of the best explanations for anything I've come across on the Internet...detailed and consist. Bravo.

So basically, as I understand it, at base ISO, the photodiodes are accumulating as many photons as possible. If ISO were to lower significantly, the diodes would overflow, unless the shutter speed were also made significantly faster, which would mess with the exposure and probably create noise on its own.
 
I'm sure there's a technical reason, but I haven't heard of it...why is extra low ISO so rare?
The photodiodes have a typical sensitivity to light that puts the "native" or "base" ISO in the range 80-100 for digicams, and 100-200 for DSLR's. Even then there is that much of a spread, as digicams' metering is typically calibrated 1/2-1 stop lower than that of DSLR's, so compensating for that, all fall in the 100-200 range.

As manufacturers make their sensors more efficient at capturing light, with smaller electronics, better microlenses, back-illumination, etc, the sensitivity will only increase. This means that the minimum ISO will only increase.

Most people would rather have a more efficient sensor for better high ISO performance, than a less efficient sensor for low ISO performance. You can always throw away photons with a ND filter; you can't get back the ones you didn't capture because the sensor was inefficient at recording them.

--
emil
--



http://theory.uchicago.edu/~ejm/pix/20d/
Thank you Emil, that was the best, clearest and most logical explanation.
--
Andrew
Enjoying my LX3!
 
I'm sure there's a technical reason, but I haven't heard of it...why is extra low ISO so rare?
The photodiodes have a typical sensitivity to light that puts the "native" or "base" ISO in the range 80-100 for digicams, and 100-200 for DSLR's. Even then there is that much of a spread, as digicams' metering is typically calibrated 1/2-1 stop lower than that of DSLR's, so compensating for that, all fall in the 100-200 range.

As manufacturers make their sensors more efficient at capturing light, with smaller electronics, better microlenses, back-illumination, etc, the sensitivity will only increase. This means that the minimum ISO will only increase.

Most people would rather have a more efficient sensor for better high ISO performance, than a less efficient sensor for low ISO performance. You can always throw away photons with a ND filter; you can't get back the ones you didn't capture because the sensor was inefficient at recording them.

--
emil
--



http://theory.uchicago.edu/~ejm/pix/20d/
But what if the size of the photosensitive area increases (which seems to be possible, at least for CMOS sensors), so that the same pixel size now has twice the full well capacity? Wouldn't that give us a lower base ISO that's capable to 'handle' a one stop higher exposure?
 

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