CRT - wide gamut LCD – inkjet printer

I have been searching the net to discover a suitable replacement for my Lacie electron19blue CRT monitor. I would welcome any comments on my thoughts here.

I bought the Lacie a little over four years ago when it was supposedly obsolete and they were clearing the shelves. I have been able to calibrate (Spyder2 Plus) the monitor and printer so that I can edit photographs on the screen to make pretty accurate inkjet prints and make digital slideshow DVDs that look much as I intend on a normal TV.

I went for CRT at the time because it was widely believed that LCDs could not give such a good image as CRT and certainly Lacie’s cheapest LCD was nearly three times what I paid for their end-of-line CRT.

In the intervening four years, two important things appear to have happened. LCD quality has improved; and wide gamut screens have appeared.

It looks to me as though a wide gamut monitor will enable me to edit my pictures more accurately, but most people will not be able to see on their monitor or TV what I see on my screen, and since I am able to print pretty close to what I see on my (normal gamut) CRT I will probably not see much difference in the prints.

Around the net there seem to be many comparisons between normal (around 75% aRGB) and wide gamut (100+% aRGB) LCD screens, but very little comparison with CRT (78% aRGB? Which 78%?) and none that I can find compares monitor colour gamuts with that of prints of various kinds. I have read that many online print companies use sRGB. There is an undercurrent of comment that seems to suggest that in the real world I will not notice much difference going from CRT to a modern good quality normal sRGB gamut LCD.

If I replace my CRT with a good quality LCD of this kind, will I still be able to edit photographs on the screen and print them to look as alike as is reasonably possible comparing a transmitted light image with a reflected light one? Am I right in thinking that the slide show DVDs will look exactly the same to anyone without a wide gamut screen?

Jonathan Holtom said:

I bought the Lacie a little over four years ago when it was supposedly obsolete and they were clearing the shelves. I have been able to calibrate (Spyder2 Plus) the monitor and printer so that I can edit photographs on the screen to make pretty accurate inkjet prints and make digital slideshow DVDs that look much as I intend on a normal TV.

Click to expand...

Your calibrator may present a problem if you acquire a wide gamut TFT LCD. From what I've read the Spyder2 family doe not do well with wide gamut. I think you will have to upgrade to the Spyder3 Elite or to an Xrite i1D2.

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Jonathan Holtom said:

In the intervening four years, two important things appear to have happened. LCD quality has improved; and wide gamut screens have appeared.

Click to expand...

Yes they have though even some of the ones from 4 years ago were getting pretty good.

I've put together a summary post on TFT LCD monitors. It's all about the TFT panel type. Read more here:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1004&message=32608747

There is a summary of affordable monitors suitable for image editing in the second post of the thread. I deliberately left out the likes of the NEC's and Eizo's as they stand on the own and appeal to a much smaller community of users than the majority of DPReview readers, imho. Certainly if you are looking for wide gamut and a very consistent level of calibration then you should look to those brands and maybe even consider the new Dell U2410f and the HP LP2480zx with their 12bit internal lut's and, in some cases, associated calibration systems.

As to Lacie.... imho they have not been able to carry over their excellent reputation with CRT's into TFT LCD monitors. As I understand it, at least one and maybe more of their models are OEM'd from NEC which is not necessarily a bad thing if they have added features to make the monitor easier to calibrate or more accurate at every point on the panel. But if all they have done is rename features and charge 50% more, then why consider them? It is not a line on which I have spend a lot of time examining their feature set so I'm sure others will correct me.

IMHO, you're best served by spending some time reading the reviews & articles on these two sites:

http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/reviews.html
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews.htm

In addition, use the search function here and go back through the posts on various monitors. There are some very good ones with plenty of screenshots of calibration results, delta E's, and white/black luminance levels.

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Jonathan Holtom said:

It looks to me as though a wide gamut monitor will enable me to edit my pictures more accurately, but most people will not be able to see on their monitor or TV what I see on my screen, and since I am able to print pretty close to what I see on my (normal gamut) CRT I will probably not see much difference in the prints.

Around the net there seem to be many comparisons between normal (around 75% aRGB) and wide gamut (100+% aRGB) LCD screens, but very little comparison with CRT (78% aRGB? Which 78%?) and none that I can find compares monitor colour gamuts with that of prints of various kinds. I have read that many online print companies use sRGB. There is an undercurrent of comment that seems to suggest that in the real world I will not notice much difference going from CRT to a modern good quality normal sRGB gamut LCD.

Click to expand...

I can't speak to this other than to say I assume 100% sRGB and 100% AdobeRGB is better than 78% AdobeRGB regardless of which monitor technology it is on.

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Jonathan Holtom said:

If I replace my CRT with a good quality LCD of this kind, will I still be able to edit photographs on the screen and print them to look as alike as is reasonably possible comparing a transmitted light image with a reflected light one?

Click to expand...

Yes, most of the posts here on calibrating monitors are all about print matching.

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Jonathan Holtom said:

Am I right in thinking that the slide show DVDs will look exactly the same to anyone without a wide gamut screen?

Click to expand...

Most people, who are non-photography enthusiasts, don't calibrate their monitors let alone have them adjusted anywhere near accurate much less blazingly bright (if an LCD). However, yours odds get better if you're handing out those DVD's to fellow photographers.

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Many thanks for your help. I had found your TFT monitor thread before, but it did bear looking into a bit more thoroughly than I had done originally.

You may be interested to learn that Datacolor told me that Spyder 2 is defeated by LED backlight screens and for these you need Spyder 3.

I still wonder slightly whether wide gamut will really be useful. I am reminded of the Flanders and Swann song about audio hi-fi which includes the lines: "The ear can't hear as high as that, still I ought to please any passing bat". I guess that in this case it is slightly different in that the colours will be more accurate and the community that is able to see them will grow as time goes on and the technology moves into mainstream.

LCD monitors win so many advantages over CRT monitors except for one. Color purity is the only thing that CRT monitor possess which LCD monitor's manufacturers are still working on. I hope this helps. Thanks!

The NEC LCD2180WG-LED-SV is monitor that covers 100% of the Adobe RGB color space. It sells for $1250, including a GretagMacBeth calibrator. It’s 21.3” with a 1600 x 1200 (4:3) resolution.

This monitor actually has both sRGB and Adobe RGB setting, whereas most other monitors have only an sRGB setting. Using a Dual-Link cable, this monitor will operate in 10-bit color, which gives you an active palette of 1 billion colors, as opposed to the 16 million colors you get from other monitors.

Normally, you run the monitor in sRGB mode. To make the color magic happen you need...
Photoshop CS3
ATI FirePro V3700 video card (about 85 bucks)
ATI plugin for Photoshop (comes with the card)

What happens is that Photoshop will go into full-screen mode...like when you play a video game or watch a movie. In this mode, the application takes full control of the video system and will switch it to 10-bit, Adobe RGB mode. Now, your Adobe RGB images will display all their colors properly.

Windows 7 will have the ability to drive this monitor in 10-bit mode with this video card. Of course, software has to be updated to work with the Windows 7 color system. But when that happens you’ll be able to work in 10-bit Adobe RGB all the time (and JPEGs from the internet will look correct.)

The best consumer printers, like the better Epsons or Canon Pro9500 MII, will cover, at best, about 65% of the Adobe RGB space. But they’re getting better all the time, so at some point in the future I’d expect printers to get real close to printing the entire Adobe gamut.

As for other people not being able to see what you see…this is an argument made by some for sticking to sRGB. But if you throw away your colors now, what happens in the future when everyone has an Adobe RGB monitor? To display your images on the web or email them to someone, you’re going to resize and save as a new copy anyways. Well, after you resize you simply change the color space to sRGB. That’s it. At that moment the colors may shift slightly, and that’s okay because the viewer of the image could never see your full color range to begin with. At least now you know where the inaccuracies are. The important thing is that you get to keep your colors.

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Thanks for your help. The NEC LCD2180WG-LED-SV sounds like a neat idea. Unfortunately it does not seem to be available here in the UK.

Your number for printer colour gamut is very welcome. It bears out what I suspected. I do however, wonder whether the combination of pigments or dyes, paper and ambient light will ever be able to show the entire Adobe RGB gamut with any great accuracy.

Saving my RAW files gives a degree of future proofing, but I agree that having to redo the RAW conversion adjustments would be a pain. Just seeing more of what the camera recorded could be nice too.

Graystar said:

The NEC LCD2180WG-LED-SV is monitor that covers 100% of the Adobe RGB color space. It sells for $1250, including a GretagMacBeth calibrator. It’s 21.3” with a 1600 x 1200 (4:3) resolution.

This monitor actually has both sRGB and Adobe RGB setting, whereas most other monitors have only an sRGB setting. Using a Dual-Link cable, this monitor will operate in 10-bit color, which gives you an active palette of 1 billion colors, as opposed to the 16 million colors you get from other monitors.

Normally, you run the monitor in sRGB mode. To make the color magic happen you need...
Photoshop CS3
ATI FirePro V3700 video card (about 85 bucks)
ATI plugin for Photoshop (comes with the card)

What happens is that Photoshop will go into full-screen mode...like when you play a video game or watch a movie. In this mode, the application takes full control of the video system and will switch it to 10-bit, Adobe RGB mode.

Click to expand...

I take it you've tested it and it works right? Does one have to set some configuration in the video card driver? Or would the video card detects the 30-bit capability of the display and switch to that automatically? And how does one verify it's actually in 30-bit mode? If I recall, the on screen info panel on the 2180WG is not showing the input bit depth.

Also, where could one find more info on the ATI Photoshop plugin? A quick Goggle search doesn't seem to return anything meaningful. I remember Matrox used to have a Photoshop plugin, but it's only a viewer. Does this ATI plugin allow full Photoshop operation in 30-bit mode? What about ACR and Bridge? And does it happen to come with the FireGL line as well? Info on this would be greatly appreciated.

Andy

Well, I rechecked my information and found some problems but also some possible solutions.

I could not find info on a Photoshop plug-in. I could only find info for the old Matrox Gigacolor plug-in. What I had previously seen was that Photoshop CS3 was certified with the FirePro 3700. However, that doesn’t mean it supports 10-bit color.

I could have sworn I read info on an ATI plug-in for PS, but as I can’t find it now I must be mistaken. I’ll keep looking for it though.

In any case, it seems that a possible solution is to use Photoshop CS4, which is built upon OpenGL. I’m still trying to find out if CS4 is 10-bit aware.

Andy Wai said:

I take it you've tested it and it works right?

Click to expand...

No, but I am going to buy that monitor and video card soon. The hardware's ability to display 10-bit color is for certain, as there are workstation resellers, such as HP and Dell, that use this video card in workstations that tout 10-bit display pipelines. The only question is on the software's ability to use it. I'm going to be moving to Windows 7 soon, and it supports 10-bit displays natively (that’s what I read.) I have to see what color management options are available in Win7. Apps still need to be updated for Win7, but at least the Windows Image Viewer should be able to display an AdobeRGB image properly if I set the color management correctly.

Andy Wai said:

Does one have to set some configuration in the video card driver?

Click to expand...

In XP and Visa, yes. Don't know about the Mac. There's a setting in the display configuration to enable 10-bit support (see PDF below.) Then, any application that is 10-bit aware can draw a window in 10-bits.

Andy Wai said:

And how does one verify it's actually in 30-bit mode?

Click to expand...

I don't think you do. The driver controls what bit depth is being used in various parts of the screen. If the application draws in 10-bit then it should appear as such in the application's window.

Andy Wai said:

Also, where could one find more info on the ATI Photoshop plugin?

Click to expand...

I'm lookin. The research continues...

I should note that I’m aware that Adobe RGB operation and 10-bit operation are completely independent of each other. I just don’t want to cause posterization in sRGB images (due to a reduced number of colors) by squeezing AdobeRGB into 8 bits.

Feature list of ATI FirePro video cards...

http://www.amd.com/us/products/workstation/graphics/ati-firepro-3d/Pages/ati-firepro-3d.aspx
http://www.amd.com/us/Documents/v3700_data_sheet.pdf

Technical paper on 10-bit color, which refers to the NEC monitor I suggested...
http://www.amd.com/us/Documents/10-Bit.pdf

List of certified applications
http://ati.amd.com/products/workstation/certified_graphics_accelerators.html

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Graystar said:

[...]

I could have sworn I read info on an ATI plug-in for PS, but as I can’t find it now [...] In any case, it seems that a possible solution is to use Photoshop CS4, which is built upon OpenGL. I’m still trying to find out if CS4 is 10-bit aware.

Click to expand...

It isn't 10-bit aware, as far as I know...

Graystar said:

Andy Wai said:

I take it you've tested it and it works right?

Click to expand...

No, but I am going to buy that monitor and video card soon. The hardware's ability to display 10-bit color is for certain, as there are workstation resellers, such as HP and Dell, that use this video card in workstations that tout 10-bit display pipelines. The only question is on the software's ability to use it. I'm going to be moving to Windows 7 soon, and it supports 10-bit displays natively (that’s what I read.) I have to see what color management options are available in Win7.

Click to expand...

I'd be really interested in your findings. Please PM me when you have your setup done.

I'm currently running a 2180WG on a Window 7RC box through a 1GB Radeon 4850 card. As the ATI Fire lines are serious rip offs compared to the Radeon, it'll be a big step back for me. I won't go for it unless that it's proven that the configuration really works.

Graystar said:

[...] at least the Windows Image Viewer should be able to display an AdobeRGB image properly if I set the color management correctly.

Click to expand...

Yes, the image viewer is color managed but Windows Explorer and the desktop isn't. So thumbnails and desktop background are grossly saturated.

By the way, when they say the monitor is 107% aRBG, it's 107% of the size of aRBG, not 107% of the actual aRBG space. The monitor's red primary doesn't actually match the aRGB red completely. So it doesn't actually cover all of aRGB...

Graystar said:

Graystar said:

Does one have to set some configuration in the video card driver?

Click to expand...

In XP and Visa, yes. Don't know about the Mac. There's a setting in the display configuration to enable 10-bit support (see PDF below.)

Click to expand...

Hmm... Which page in the PDF says that?

Graystar said:

Graystar said:

And how does one verify it's actually in 30-bit mode?

Click to expand...

I don't think you do. The driver controls what bit depth is being used in various parts of the screen. If the application draws in 10-bit then it should appear as such in the application's window.

Click to expand...

24-bit or 30-bit is controlled by the transmission mode of the DVI link. I don't think it's on a per window basis. The reason I asked about whether there is a configuration flag is that nVidia Quadros are doing auto detection. But the only tested monitor for them is HP DreamColor. See bottom of page 4 below:

http://www.nvidia.com/docs/IO/40049/TB-04701-001_v02_new.pdf

So the card to monitor compatibility might be more intricate than one would suspect.

Graystar said:

I should note that I’m aware that Adobe RGB operation and 10-bit operation are completely independent of each other. I just don’t want to cause posterization in sRGB images (due to a reduced number of colors) by squeezing AdobeRGB into 8 bits.

Click to expand...

Narrow gamut images displayed in 24-bit mode seems to be fine, to my eyes at least. Getting 30-bit to work would be the icing on the cake of course. But even in 24-bit, it's at least on par with anything I've seen. That includes the latest NEC, Eizo and LaCie.

It's really too bad that it isn't available in the OPs geographic area. The 2180WG is far superior to the Electron Blue IV (which I also have) in every way. Once you've worked with the former, you won't trust the latter ever again...

Andy

Andy Wai said:

[Photoshop] ... isn't 10-bit aware, as far as I know...

Click to expand...

That would suck. You'd think after going through all the trouble of OpenGL they would have gone the next step. They really should provide better information on these type of things.

Andy Wai said:

I'd be really interested in your findings. Please PM me when you have your setup done.

Click to expand...

Will do.

Andy Wai said:

Yes, the image viewer is color managed but Windows Explorer and the desktop isn't. So thumbnails and desktop background are grossly saturated.

Click to expand...

That doesn't make sense at all. I'd consider that a real failure on MS's part.

Andy Wai said:

By the way, when they say the monitor is 107% aRBG, it's 107% of the size of aRBG, not 107% of the actual aRBG space. The monitor's red primary doesn't actually match the aRGB red completely. So it doesn't actually cover all of aRGB...

Click to expand...

According to the brochure it covers 100% of the Adobe space (blue box on page 2...)

http://www.necdisplay.com/cms/documents/ColorBrochures/SpectraView%20LCD%20Brochure_0608.pdf

Andy Wai said:

Andy Wai said:

Andy Wai said:

Does one have to set some configuration in the video card driver?

Click to expand...

In XP and Visa, yes. Don't know about the Mac. There's a setting in the display configuration to enable 10-bit support (see PDF below.)

Click to expand...

Hmm... Which page in the PDF says that?

Click to expand...

Page 5 on the 10-bit PDF...
http://www.amd.com/us/Documents/10-Bit.pdf

Figure 5 shows the dialog and explains how to enable it.

Andy Wai said:

Andy Wai said:

Andy Wai said:

And how does one verify it's actually in 30-bit mode?

Click to expand...

I don't think you do. The driver controls what bit depth is being used in various parts of the screen. If the application draws in 10-bit then it should appear as such in the application's window.

Click to expand...

24-bit or 30-bit is controlled by the transmission mode of the DVI link. I don't think it's on a per window basis.

Click to expand...

I think we just have a difference in symantics. As the 10-bit PDF says, after turning on 10-bit color, a reboot is required, so yes, at that point the monitor goes into dual-link mode. But programming wise, you can set the bit depth of the window, as described in the GLUT section of the PDF, and this will be different from other windows, which will still be provide info to the display system in 8 bits. Hence the need for the app to be 10-bit aware. Even the nividia doc you provided describes 30-bit windows under OpenGL.

Andy Wai said:

Narrow gamut images displayed in 24-bit mode seems to be fine, to my eyes at least. Getting 30-bit to work would be the icing on the cake of course. But even in 24-bit, it's at least on par with anything I've seen. That includes the latest NEC, Eizo and LaCie.

It's really too bad that it isn't available in the OPs geographic area. The 2180WG is far superior to the Electron Blue IV (which I also have) in every way. Once you've worked with the former, you won't trust the latter ever again...

Click to expand...

I hope so...I can't wait to get those 70 lbs Trinitron monsters off my desk!

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Graystar said:

According to the brochure it covers 100% of the Adobe space (blue box on page 2...)

http://www.necdisplay.com/cms/documents/ColorBrochures/SpectraView%20LCD%20Brochure_0608.pdf

Click to expand...

Not quite :



I thought the problem was in the red primary, but it's actually in the green.

Graystar said:

Graystar said:

[...]
Hmm... Which page in the PDF says that?

Click to expand...

Page 5 on the 10-bit PDF...
http://www.amd.com/us/Documents/10-Bit.pdf

Figure 5 shows the dialog and explains how to enable it.

Click to expand...

ATI has many spec pages that says Radeon can do 30-bit output too. Like this:

http://ati.amd.com/products/Radeonhd4800/specs.html

But the PDF file you linked to clearly says it isn't the case. What a rip off... In any case, thanks for the info. It's really helpful. Please keep me posted on your findings.

Andy

Andy Wai said:

Graystar said:

According to the brochure it covers 100% of the Adobe space (blue box on page 2...)

Click to expand...

Not quite :

Click to expand...

Well if it doesn't they better give me my money back!

Andy Wai said:

ATI has many spec pages that says Radeon can do 30-bit output too. Like this:

http://ati.amd.com/products/Radeonhd4800/specs.html

Click to expand...

Ah...no it doesn't. Look at the list carefully...all of the 30-bit features are indented under the ATI Avivo display platform. That's the only time 30-bit comes into play. Here's info on Avivo...

http://www.amd.com/us/products/technologies/ati-avivo-hd/Pages/ati-avivo-hd.aspx

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Andy Wai said:

Please keep me posted on your findings.

Click to expand...

Well...I can tell you what I HAVEN'T found...and that's the monitor with the SVII solution.

On the NEC website there is a separate SVII product that is calibrated for the LCD2180WG, so I presume that I can't use just any ol' SVII kit. The kit is out of stock and I haven't been able to find out if they're going to get any more.

So I'm going to save my pennies and instead get the HP Dreamcolor monitor...

http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF05a/382087-382087-64283-72270-3884471-3648397.html

And I'll have to buy their profiler as well.

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Graystar said:

So I'm going to save my pennies and instead get the HP Dreamcolor monitor...

http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF05a/382087-382087-64283-72270-3884471-3648397.html

Click to expand...

If you value the A-TW polarizer/filter used in the Dreamcolor, get it while you can as I suspect there will be a Dreamcolor II out soon due that the A-TW polarizer/filter is no longer available for HP or NEC to include in their products.

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