Again poor results - Where am I going wrong please!!

I am trying (double meaning here). Hope you don't mind but I would like to post some shots taken yesterday. All taken with 50D - canon 70-300 is lens (is off) - Tripod (Manfrotto 190B 488RC2 Head) Remote release to get my hands out of the equation - lens not at longest 300 following earlier advice backed off to around 240 -270mm - f8 - again following earlier advice that this lens performs well there - shots taken from a distance of around 10-12ft - Cropped and a bit of PP in DPP

I seem to be failing miserably at getting a sharp picture - took about 50 shots these were the sharpest - any and all advice please.







In about three weeks I am booked to go on a workshop at a Falconry centre here in the UK - I think this lens is going to be the one most used on the day and I would really hope to be able to do better but am struggling - where am I going wrong please?
Jayboo

My post in prompted by the extreme feeling that I am going backwards

Shot below was taken with same lens - canon 450d - handheld - lens at 300m f5.6 taken in April in the first few weeks of my DSLR life and I was really happy with the result.

I have not been able to replicate or get anywhere near the same results lately - It isn't 450d/50d thing as I try with 450d aswell and have same lack of sharpness or blurry images
Jayboo

Jayboo

jayboo said:

I am trying (double meaning here). Hope you don't mind but I would like to post some shots taken yesterday. All taken with 50D - canon 70-300 is lens (is off)

Click to expand...

Hello Jayboo - since you know me, you know I'm not a snide person, but is there any chance that your AF/MF switch is switched to manual instead of your is switch being off?

Other than that, too, it looks like you're also working with much less light in these pictures. The colors also seem oversaturated instead of natural. I wonder if your default "picture style" has changed (or do you shoot RAW?) Of course, since you switched camera bodies, I guess this probably isn't the issue.

--
MikeInCA - I've seen the light...

Hi Mike,

Know your not being snide - but I had to check all exif data on DPP to be sure I hadn't been doing that because I was trying liveview and manual focus some of the time yesterday - but it seems I was on AF - always use centre focus point.

Yes - light was poor and ISO Auto gave me some shots iso 500 and iso 640 - but I am not seeing noise issue just general blurriness.

I did not shoot RAW on these - left it on high Jpeg - I have tried using different setting on Picture style - this set to sharp 5 contrast 1 sat 2 color tone 1
I am going to go back and look at settings I shot the earlier one on
I am really at a loss here - just this lens I seem to be having problems with
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Jayboo

A few questions first:

How did you focus? (manual or auto)

After you focused, did you switch your lens to "manual focus", so that the camera didn't re-focus the when you actually made the exposure?
In what mode did you shoot? (auto, program, aperture or full manual)
What shutter-speed was selected?
What ISO-speed was selected?
Did you lock up the mirror first?

Some food for thought,
Alvatrus

Alvatrus said:

A few questions first:

How did you focus? (manual or auto)

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Both tried -

Alvatrus said:

After you focused, did you switch your lens to "manual focus", so that the camera didn't re-focus the when you actually made the exposure?

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No - the birds don't really hang around long enough - all shot autofocus - centre focus point selected

Alvatrus said:

In what mode did you shoot? (auto, program, aperture or full manual)

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AV and TV

Alvatrus said:

What shutter-speed was selected?

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Shutter speed when using AV as shots shown was 1/320 - surely this is not so vital when tripod/cable release is used

Alvatrus said:

What ISO-speed was selected?

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of the shots show ISO value was 500 640 and 640

Alvatrus said:

Did you lock up the mirror first?

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No

Alvatrus said:

Some food for thought,
Alvatrus

Click to expand...

--
Jayboo

Hi Jayboo,

I'm not a bird shooter, so there are more qualified people around who can dispense some wisdom. All I can say are some general things.

• Why are those out of focus bright spots so aggressive? Is it the scene? Are you shooting in shadow against some bright somethings? What are the bright somethings? They are really aggressive and wrench my eyes out of their sockets.

• If those bright spots are so bright and your bird is so dark, the AF of the camera will be confused - are you using single central AF point or all AF points. This will cause the AF to be off.

• If those bright spots are so bright, the metering will also be confused. Did you use any spot or central spot metering pattern or are you using the matrix metering pattern? Did you use software to lift the tones so that they become brighter? Canon is not known for that grainy blotchy look normally - the photo will appear blotchy if you lift the tones in software.

• There is no texture on the bird itself - that means light is not hitting it to improve perception of sharpness or texture.

• The aim of a tele or a tele zoom for my purposes is to make near subjects prettier and bigger. The aim is not to make far objects sharper. I have seen many good bird shots taken by bridge cameras (10x zoom Kodaks) - I seldom get good shots myself. That's because owners of these cameras use technique to get their shot - it's not how expensive or good their equipment is. They must be physically having a shorter camera to bird distance. Makes all the difference.

Your EXIF on the first shot is:
f/8 240mm 1/320th sec ISO 640.

Well ISO 640 is plenty for subjects that are lit well in bright sun.

1/320th on a 240mm is to me, a little slow, I would easily go 1/500th or 1/1000th - but I am not a birder. Someone will have more experience than me.

You have got a premium Canon body, a 50D and you have got a premium Canon L lens - I don't have hands on experience with that stuff but that's not el cheapo gear. Why do you have to use f/8? Do you really need that for deeper DOF or what?

I would guess that

• You subject is not well lit
• That the bright out of focus highlights are confusing your AF and your metering
• That you are lifting shadows and tones in post processing
• That your camera is too far from your bird.

Those are my guesses.

jayboo said:

I am trying (double meaning here). Hope you don't mind but I would like to post some shots taken yesterday. All taken with 50D - canon 70-300 is lens (is off) - Tripod (Manfrotto 190B 488RC2 Head) Remote release to get my hands out of the equation - lens not at longest 300 following earlier advice backed off to around 240 -270mm - f8 - again following earlier advice that this lens performs well there - shots taken from a distance of around 10-12ft - Cropped and a bit of PP in DPP

I seem to be failing miserably at getting a sharp picture - took about 50 shots these were the sharpest - any and all advice please.







In about three weeks I am booked to go on a workshop at a Falconry centre here in the UK - I think this lens is going to be the one most used on the day and I would really hope to be able to do better but am struggling - where am I going wrong please?
Jayboo

Click to expand...

--



Ananda
http://anandasim.blogspot.com/

Two issues I see here. First is I think I read you said the light was poor and it chose a higher ISO. Higher ISOs can bring some image softness. Second issue is the 70-300 is not that great a lens. I had one and was disappointed. Especially wide open, and towards the long end of the range, but in general it wasn't that sharp. It's a midrange amateur lens. You could have gotten a 70-200 f/4 plus a teleconverter and gotten better results, which is the same mistake I made when I bought the 70-300

AnandaSim said:

Hi Jayboo,

I'm not a bird shooter, so there are more qualified people around who can dispense some wisdom. All I can say are some general things.

• Why are those out of focus bright spots so aggressive? Is it the scene? Are you shooting in shadow against some bright somethings? What are the bright somethings? They are really aggressive and wrench my eyes out of their sockets.

Click to expand...

Sorry about your eyes - light through background trees

AnandaSim said:

• If those bright spots are so bright and your bird is so dark, the AF of the camera will be confused - are you using single central AF point or all AF points. This will cause the AF to be off.

Click to expand...

Centre Focus point only

AnandaSim said:

• If those bright spots are so bright, the metering will also be confused. Did you use any spot or central spot metering pattern or are you using the matrix metering pattern? Did you use software to lift the tones so that they become brighter? Canon is not known for that grainy blotchy look normally - the photo will appear blotchy if you lift the tones in software.

Click to expand...

Tried Evaluative Partial and Spot - think shots shown are partial

AnandaSim said:

• There is no texture on the bird itself - that means light is not hitting it to improve perception of sharpness or texture.

Click to expand...

No - you're right the light yesterday (every day lately) was not good

AnandaSim said:

• The aim of a tele or a tele zoom for my purposes is to make near subjects prettier and bigger. The aim is not to make far objects sharper. I have seen many good bird shots taken by bridge cameras (10x zoom Kodaks) - I seldom get good shots myself. That's because owners of these cameras use technique to get their shot - it's not how expensive or good their equipment is. They must be physically having a shorter camera to bird distance. Makes all the difference.

Your EXIF on the first shot is:
f/8 240mm 1/320th sec ISO 640.

Well ISO 640 is plenty for subjects that are lit well in bright sun.

1/320th on a 240mm is to me, a little slow, I would easily go 1/500th or 1/1000th - but I am not a birder. Someone will have more experience than me.

Click to expand...

Using AV - camera set shutter speed - I - probably mistakenly - thought this shutter speed should be fast enough for subject -

AnandaSim said:

You have got a premium Canon body, a 50D and you have got a premium Canon L lens - I don't have hands on experience with that stuff but that's not el cheapo gear. Why do you have to use f/8? Do you really need that for deeper DOF or what?

Click to expand...

No - I haven't got a premium Canon L lens - 70-300 is - not L glass - though has had good reviews and I have seen on this forum some wonderful shots taken with it - advice previously on this lens has been that backed off from 300m down to approx 270mm and f/8 gives best results - hence my attempts

AnandaSim said:

I would guess that

• You subject is not well lit
• That the bright out of focus highlights are confusing your AF and your metering
• That you are lifting shadows and tones in post processing
• That your camera is too far from your bird.

Click to expand...

Probably right on all counts

AnandaSim said:

Those are my guesses.

jayboo said:

I am trying (double meaning here). Hope you don't mind but I would like to post some shots taken yesterday. All taken with 50D - canon 70-300 is lens (is off) - Tripod (Manfrotto 190B 488RC2 Head) Remote release to get my hands out of the equation - lens not at longest 300 following earlier advice backed off to around 240 -270mm - f8 - again following earlier advice that this lens performs well there - shots taken from a distance of around 10-12ft - Cropped and a bit of PP in DPP

I seem to be failing miserably at getting a sharp picture - took about 50 shots these were the sharpest - any and all advice please.







In about three weeks I am booked to go on a workshop at a Falconry centre here in the UK - I think this lens is going to be the one most used on the day and I would really hope to be able to do better but am struggling - where am I going wrong please?
Jayboo

Click to expand...

--



Ananda
http://anandasim.blogspot.com/

Click to expand...

--
Jayboo

Howdy,

I've been following this for the last week or so.... and I feel your pain. Such nice equipment, and such good initial results......and now this.

First, have you done a simple lens test to just see if your lens is still sharp? I always do a quick lens test with a new (or questionable) lens. Tape one full sheet of a newspaper flat on the wall, mount your gear on a tripod, make sure the sheet is well lit, and then fire of some shots, keeping track of your exposures on each shot. Start wide open then stop down for each shot. Then try various focal lengths from wide open, mid-range, to full telephoto (also at various f stops)

View the results.

If all the letters look sharp, then you simply need to work on your technique. If you notice some blurriness then we have to figure out if it's a lens or body problem.

If you determine that the lens is sharp, then you need to do a few other things. I'd start by resetting your camera to factory settings and go from there.

Forget birds for the moment and simply concentrate on getting ANY sharp shots you can around your house, outside in good light. Start with object that fill the frame and are fairly close, and above all well lit.

Once you get good results with those you can begin to move to smaller objects further away.

Hopefully something in all that will help. Just remember that with patience and perseverance you WILL figure this out. Simply be methodical in your approach and take it one step at a time, eliminating all the possible variables until finally get the sharp shots you know you can.

Derek - thankyou for all that

I have decided today is going to be devoted to just this lens and I am now going to do the newspaper test as you suggest
I will post my observations and a couple of the results
--
Jayboo

jayboo said:

Sorry about your eyes - light through background trees

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Thanks. Nice friendly touch from you. I was gonna say, with that kinda light, you may appreciate your work but it's not gonna win accolades from others.

jayboo said:

Centre Focus point only

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Ok. But Centre Focus point can also be too broad over long distance. What about this? Focus the lens manually on manual at the bird feeder and leave it at that focus and don't zoom, leave it at that focal length. The bird will come to the feeder like that man and the mountain story.

jayboo said:

Tried Evaluative Partial and Spot - think shots shown are partial

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Try Spot, and use Exposure Compensation.

jayboo said:

No - you're right the light yesterday (every day lately) was not good

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That's the number one thing for photography. Enough light and quality / angle of light.

jayboo said:

Using AV - camera set shutter speed - I - probably mistakenly - thought this shutter speed should be fast enough for subject -

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You can use Av. If you want. I do that. Open the lens to the brighter, say f/4

jayboo said:

No - I haven't got a premium Canon L lens - 70-300 is - not L glass - though has had good reviews and I have seen on this forum some wonderful shots taken with it - advice previously on this lens has been that backed off from 300m down to approx 270mm and f/8 gives best results - hence my attempts

Click to expand...

Ok. But is f/8 losing you shutter speed.

Keep on improving your technique.

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Ananda
http://anandasim.blogspot.com/

I think there are a number of things going on here....

Firstly, as you've already acknowledged the lighting conditions were less than ideal and so you were probably never going to produce a masterpiece on this ocassion. To see the detail and definition in the birds they need to be photographed in better lighting than this.

We can see that the bar from which the feeder is hanging and the hook are both in focus, so there doesn't appear to be a problem with AF or camera shake (we know you're using a tripod). However, the birds are not as sharp so I think it's an issue of subject movement i.e. the shutter speed isn't fast enough.

I would suggest using a wider aperture/faster shutter and setting the camera to continuous drive. I would also suggest backing off even further with the zoom, perhaps to about 200mm and cropping the image (you've got plenty of pixels so you can afford to lose a few)

--
Confused of Malvern
'The greatest fool can ask more than the wisest man can answer'

jayboo said:

I am trying (double meaning here). Hope you don't mind but I would like to post some shots taken yesterday. All taken with 50D - canon 70-300 is lens (is off) - Tripod (Manfrotto 190B 488RC2 Head) Remote release to get my hands out of the equation - lens not at longest 300 following earlier advice backed off to around 240 -270mm - f8 - again following earlier advice that this lens performs well there - shots taken from a distance of around 10-12ft - Cropped and a bit of PP in DPP

I seem to be failing miserably at getting a sharp picture - took about 50 shots these were the sharpest - any and all advice please.

Click to expand...

There are some issues here.

First, and most important, you are definitely shooting in bad light. And in some images against the light. That will: i. fool your focus sensor and ii. hide details adding to the lack of sharpness.

On top of that, I feel the images were underexposed, and the exposure was kicked up in PP - adding to iii. more noise and more perceived lack of sharpness.

So, a few advices, even if I am not a dedicated birder: Shoot in better light. Forget about mirror lockup - you want to capture what you see, not what you saw 1 second ago. Don't be afraid to shoot handheld and wide open. Fill the frame with the subject, if possible. Remove filters (if any) and use a lens hood.

It might be a case of bad lens, or lens/camera combination, but i highly doubt it. You can test it versus a good illuminated subject and see for yourself if focus is good.

Cheers,

d/n

jayboo said:

In about three weeks I am booked to go on a workshop at a Falconry centre here in the UK - I think this lens is going to be the one most used on the day and I would really hope to be able to do better but am struggling - where am I going wrong please?
Jayboo

Click to expand...

Well - I tried the newspaper test - Tripod - timed shutter release - starting at 70mm f/4 going up to f/16 then 135mm f5 up to f16 - then 300m 5.6 up to f16 - really poor results at widest aperture - few samples below - maybe I'm soing this wrong also - shot RAW - Auto ISO - some samples below
1st Taken f4 1/2500 70mm (centre focus point - focussed on letter m after 321)



2nd shot f8 1/800 135mm



3rd shot (just for comparison) taken with 18-200 is lens at 200mm f5/6 1/500



Not one of the shots with the 70-300 came anywhere near the last shot taken with the 18-200 (in my opinion).
I took 7 shots increasing the aperture at 70mm 135mm and then 300mm

I will keep trying.
--
Jayboo

might be worth checking this out:

http://focustestchart.com/chart.html
--
WSSA #270

thos eshots show that lens to be good awful bad or you did something wrong when doing you test with the news paper ...looks like abut a 400% crop to me ...should post oroiginal size ..im not ine to take shots of newspapers but you have some issues snd need to do some proper testing posting 100% crop no more and all shots must be same light same distance same size ... and no PP at all

Sorry - thought I needed to crop to show where I was focussing

Images below - no crop - all the shots were taken consecutively - matter of minutes - same light - same tripod. Only exception was the example of the 18-200 which I took a little later. Obviously I did no PP to any of the images
1st - 70mm f5.6 1/100



2nd - 70mm f8 1/640



3rd 300mm f5.6 1/1250



4th 300mm f11 1/400

-



These are just a sample of the many I took - I'm not sure if this is the expected result from this sort of test or not but thank you all for your patience with me

Jayboo

For anyone interested - I continued with tests - redid them several times - still unsure - Photographer who is quoting for daughters wedding offered to take a look - outcome being - he is sure the camera has autofocus issue - and that the lens also is not what it should be - appalled at results wide open - using his camera.

Called Canon - camera and lens now on way to RCC. It just sort of confirms the fact that I have been unhappy with the camera since I got it back from Elstree in July
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Jayboo