7d and who needs those specifications?

A lot of people on this forum seem to deny, vehemently and aggressively, that sensors with smaller pixels have a higher percentage of noise in their output than sensors of similar design with larger pixels. They are strange and deluded people with zero understanding of how these things actually work.
And those people are right.

Here are a few links to posts of a physics professor with "zero understanding." May we know what makes you so confident that you understand it better?

http://theory.uchicago.edu/~ejm/pix/20d/tests/noise/noise-p3#pixelsize
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=31922352
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=31922793
 
Agreed. But the point of my questions is what is that Canon offers for extra bucks. Is it just something new and better on paper that most of people will never need?
--
Boris
Degustibus non disputandum est!

I think you are confusing what you want or need, with what other people may want or need. Of course not everyone wants or needs the resolution or the probable features of the 7D. However, many will want or need these features and the camera is obviously designed for them. So someone not needing such a high drive rate, live view, video or this pixel density might be interested in the new Sony A850. However, if they do want a fast camera with live view and a good video mode something like the A850 isn't for them, but maybe the 7D will be.

You asks who needs these specifications and state:
18 MP on APS-C - don't need and very skeptic about that (considering 40d vs. 50d)
I'm sure sRAW etc will allow lower resolutions
HD video - I have great Sony Full HD camcoder for that, smaller lighter, designed to shoot video, unlike DSLR that is designed to make photos
Why do you use a DSLR and not a digicam? For better DOF control and high ISO noise? Why is it any different with video? Why does that tiny sensor not matter in a camcorder, but it does in a digicam? DSLRs and larger sensored still cameras can produce a type of video image quality that even expensive video cameras can't deliver. Why do you think all these film-makers have have started getting so excited about video DSLRs, although they already own expensive video cams? A big advantage to me is that there are many times when I would have liked to have shot some video footage, but I only had my stills camera with me.
19 AF points - I use central point 90% of time
I don't even use AF much of the time. However, sometimes when you are using AF it is very difficult to predict where the subject will be in the frame
Live view w Face-priority AF - never use Live view cause it is pointless without articulated LCD (I' have Olympus c-8080 and know how that feature is useful)
I've never used face-priority anything so I couldnt comment. However, I now use live view most of the time for my tripod macro shots as it is so much better than using the viewfinder. Focusing is far more precise, composition is much easier and with the silent shooting mode on my 40D I don't have to use MLU. So live view is not pointless without an articulated LCD, although one would be useful.
8 fps - don't need cause don't shoot sports
It's not just sports shooters that use high drive rates. Birders and others appreciate this
Dual DIGIC 4- as I said, don't need 8fps, also processor that enables that
New 24mm built-in flash - I always use external flash
A built in flash can be extremely handy for fill-in, even though I normally prefer to use external flashes.
New LCD - I'm not buying TV
There are high quality LCDs on most newer cameras.
New iFCL metering (exposure and colour) - we'll see about that is it better or worse
And at the end, Aero-dynamic body design is the key reason to buy this camera!
 
I rarely use the 5 or whatever fps there is on a 40D. Do you know why? Because the AF tracking doesn't work! So I always revert to central AF point and single shot.

So imagine that the camera can track for you and keep them in focus and shoot at 8fps. Would you use it then?

That's what the 1D will do for you. People with 20/30/40/50D/5Ds do not use continuous mode because they know it's a gimmick that doesn't work due to the lack than stellar AF.

I for one welcome the new AF. I hope it will be better.

As for the 8fps, I hope Canon doesn't limit the speed to 8fps but make it variable between 2-8fps in the Custom Functions.
I will accept that if you tell me what ate YOU going to shoot with 8fps and how often.

Fair enough?
Me. I like the specs-- well except no interest in video.

Are you the forum grouch or just having a bad day;> )-- fast is good.

edit: fast equals "responsive. No insult meant re the "grouch" comment-- I'm grouchy siometimes too;

Cheers. Craig
--
Boris
Degustibus non disputandum est!

 
I'm too. Never had two consecutive pics look alike when I shoot BIF or sports at maximum burst rate. Only thing is I have to wonder a lot of times what is the one in between I did not get would look like.
I use the 50D at max speed all the time while bracketing or tracking incoming waves, BIF etc-- well, it's my style of shooting much of the time-- on a tripod, no. Recently shooting from a small floatplane I maxed out the 50D speed many times in a 30minute flight.

I've found the fps speed of the 50D to be sort of addictive and I like it, but don't know if I can actually keep up w/ 8fps but I'd sure like to try;> ).

Cheers. Craig
 
but these are probably things YOU will never need.
Agreed. But the point of my questions is what is that Canon offers for extra bucks. Is it just something new and better on paper that most of people will never need?
--
Boris
Degustibus non disputandum est!

 
Live view w Face-priority AF - never use Live view cause it is pointless without articulated LCD (I' have Olympus c-8080 and know how that feature is useful)
I have often made use of liveview a total lifesaver for some shots!
So do I for product photography in studio environment. Alingning the products to the cross bars are critical and a time saver.
Dual DIGIC 4- as I said, don't need 8fps, also processor that enables that
If it can offload the AF to one processor and improve performance, would you want it then?
New 24mm built-in flash - I always use external flash
i don't like flash much and when I do have to use it the pop-up is usually enough
Uh the pop-up flash is one of the most useful things to have in a pinch. I don't carry an external flash with me at all times. I travel light. I am not one of those that have a backpack full of 100-400mm lens and the whole 9 yards.

A pop-up flash has its uses especially when you need to take a snapshot of something. Not everything needs to be an ordeal. I don't need to switch to ISO800 to keep my shutter speed reasonable then fiddle around with lighting. A quick pop of the flash, snap and you're done!
Uh if you haven't seen a high resolution LCD (ie. 40D or lesser) then you don't know what you're missing out on. Of course you could be one of those old folks that have to lift up your glasses and then proceed to move the camera in and out until you can barely make out the image.. then yes it has no use to you.
New iFCL metering (exposure and colour) - we'll see about that is it better or worse

And at the end, Aero-dynamic body design is the key reason to buy this camera!
of course!
There's plenty of key improvements over the 50D. It's not an incremental upgrade like the 20D-> 30D-> 40D-> 50D.

And I for one am excited about the new specs of this camera. You can stay at home with your camera and stop trolling about the 7D because you don't care for it. There's enough new features out of it to be excited about for many others!
 
depends what how you shoot

lots of people shoot sports these days even if just their kid

when i shot college sports i surely couldve had more keepers with more fps and better AF

etc.
Agreed. But the point of my questions is what is that Canon offers for extra bucks. Is it just something new and better on paper that most of people will never need?
--
Boris
Degustibus non disputandum est!

 
I think the simpler answer is.. if the features mean nothing then it's not the camera for you.

On the other hand I can see myself buying one (after the obligatory Canon loan period) as it will offer useful improvements in so many areas (gawd I do hope these specs are close to genuine - and the price of course).

And if the new Macro with H-IS is priced near the Nikon 105VR I'll likely grab one of those too.
OK. Than weight is the main reason?
Is English any of your languages?

More detail, more "reach", more reliable off-center AF sensors, faster.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
--

 
A lot of people on this forum seem to deny, vehemently and aggressively, that sensors with smaller pixels have a higher percentage of noise in their output than sensors of similar design with larger pixels.
That's because that's how it is. Shot noise dominates most images, and shot noise is driven by the total light captured, not the amount of light captured by each pixel. Read noise is small and improving, so smaller pixels don't hurt much.
They are strange and deluded people with zero understanding of how these things actually work.
We also have actual evidence to demonstrate the theory.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
A lot of people on this forum seem to deny, vehemently and aggressively, that sensors with smaller pixels have a higher percentage of noise in their output than sensors of similar design with larger pixels. They are strange and deluded people with zero understanding of how these things actually work.
And those people are right.
it's not yes or no, black or white.

these analysis are done using one flawed assumption.. that as the pixel density goes up .. the level of magnification on final image goes up in porportion. just as with film this isn't always necessarily the case.

the entire theory surround the per pixel camp .. is that the only way you view or have any interreaction to a photgraph is staring at it from 10 inches away on a monitor.

per pixel for 90% is meaningless .. the overall aspect of noise characteristics on a image level basis is far far more important.

more pixels allow you to scrub more and still end up with the same lines of resolution as a slightly less noiser, but less pixels sensor.

that's what the theory tends to ignore .. that you can place an ititerative step between sensor output and final image output. they also ignore that the overall image noise sampling is far more important than the invididual pixel.
 
18 MP on APS-C - don't need and very skeptic about that (considering 40d vs. 50d)

HD video - I have great Sony Full HD camcoder for that, smaller lighter, designed to shoot video, unlike DSLR that is designed to make photos

19 AF points - I use central point 90% of time

Live view w Face-priority AF - never use Live view cause it is pointless without articulated LCD (I' have Olympus c-8080 and know how that feature is useful)

8 fps - don't need cause don't shoot sports

Dual DIGIC 4- as I said, don't need 8fps, also processor that enables that

New 24mm built-in flash - I always use external flash

New LCD - I'm not buying TV

New iFCL metering (exposure and colour) - we'll see about that is it better or worse

And at the end, Aero-dynamic body design is the key reason to buy this camera!

--
Boris
Degustibus non disputandum est!

People are brainwashed around here about the 50d. 50d noise levels are fine. The people that complain are people dont own the 50D and read these threads.

I am sure 18mp with todays microlenses noise levels will be fine. You could aways go buy a D300 and all your images will have a gritty look at iso 200. Canons ISO 100 doesnt have that issue. Bring on 18mp.
 
18 MP on APS-C - don't need and very skeptic about that (considering 40d vs. 50d)

HD video - I have great Sony Full HD camcoder for that, smaller lighter, designed to shoot video, unlike DSLR that is designed to make photos
Same here but its nice to have when you need it. if you dont need it dont use it
19 AF points - I use central point 90% of time
Just cause you use it most of the time doesnt mean it wont help
Live view w Face-priority AF - never use Live view cause it is pointless without articulated LCD (I' have Olympus c-8080 and know how that feature is useful)
Live view is awesome.. if you dont like it.. dont use it.. articulated is nice but still useful with with articulation
8 fps - don't need cause don't shoot sports
Im sure some people do. maybe you should go buy an old polaroid camera
Dual DIGIC 4- as I said, don't need 8fps, also processor that enables that
Im sure some people do
New 24mm built-in flash - I always use external flash
la de frickin da.. sometimes Built in flash is handy. when you dont want to lug around the external
New LCD - I'm not buying TV
so?? having a nice accurate sharp display to review your photos is incredibly useful
New iFCL metering (exposure and colour) - we'll see about that is it better or worse

And at the end, Aero-dynamic body design is the key reason to buy this camera!
you are silly.. why even post this.. go play with your olympus
--
Boris
Degustibus non disputandum est!

--
View my gallery here http://www.filipowicz.ca/favphotos/
Canon 40D
Canon EF 180mm F3.5L USM Macro
Canon EF 50mm 1.4
 
It's pretty simple really. Just because it's not the camera for YOU doesn't mean it's not the camera for everybody.

Mark
 
a final image as clean as 20/30/40 D and better, with option to get a shot at higher isos, and since it was 50% meg increase last time vs only 20% this time; and since the T1i showed improvement in high iso reds without gapless tech, there is at least a reasonable possibity that this one's final output could be even slightly better at hi iso noise than the 50 is. They also put the 6400 on the box vs 3200 on the 50D box...saying..well reliable or not, they are claiming something.

And with this being a high end 1.6, it's again reasonable to think the IQ will be slightly , ie. 1/2 stop better noise -wise than the 50D. There--that's my take. :)
 
A lot of people on this forum seem to deny, vehemently and aggressively, that sensors with smaller pixels have a higher percentage of noise in their output than sensors of similar design with larger pixels. They are strange and deluded people with zero understanding of how these things actually work.
And those people are right.
it's not yes or no, black or white.

these analysis are done using one flawed assumption.. that as the pixel density goes up .. the level of magnification on final image goes up in porportion. just as with film this isn't always necessarily the case.

the entire theory surround the per pixel camp .. is that the only way you view or have any interreaction to a photgraph is staring at it from 10 inches away on a monitor.

per pixel for 90% is meaningless .. the overall aspect of noise characteristics on a image level basis is far far more important.

more pixels allow you to scrub more and still end up with the same lines of resolution as a slightly less noiser, but less pixels sensor.

that's what the theory tends to ignore .. that you can place an ititerative step between sensor output and final image output. they also ignore that the overall image noise sampling is far more important than the invididual pixel.
and ignoring noise and getting back to detail

Most demosaic processes have various errors and you may get zipper effects, stair-steps etc. But if you downsample, ideally, a 21MP image to say 12MP, you should get a crisper, more accurately detailed 12MP image too. So even if you were to just toss away a ton of info, it would still give truer, better detail.

And if you go high enough you can think about dumping the AA filter too or making it much weaker.
 
A lot of people on this forum seem to deny, vehemently and aggressively, that sensors with smaller pixels have a higher percentage of noise in their output than sensors of similar design with larger pixels. They are strange and deluded people with zero understanding of how these things actually work.
And those people are right.
it's not yes or no, black or white.

these analysis are done using one flawed assumption.. that as the pixel density goes up .. the level of magnification on final image goes up in porportion. just as with film this isn't always necessarily the case.

the entire theory surround the per pixel camp .. is that the only way you view or have any interreaction to a photgraph is staring at it from 10 inches away on a monitor.

per pixel for 90% is meaningless .. the overall aspect of noise characteristics on a image level basis is far far more important.

more pixels allow you to scrub more and still end up with the same lines of resolution as a slightly less noiser, but less pixels sensor.

that's what the theory tends to ignore .. that you can place an ititerative step between sensor output and final image output. they also ignore that the overall image noise sampling is far more important than the invididual pixel.
and ignoring noise and getting back to detail

Most demosaic processes have various errors and you may get zipper effects, stair-steps etc. But if you downsample, ideally, a 21MP image to say 12MP, you should get a crisper, more accurately detailed 12MP image too. So even if you were to just toss away a ton of info, it would still give truer, better detail.

And if you go high enough you can think about dumping the AA filter too or making it much weaker.
that said at some point it might not be worth hassle of extra large files for some

and it does appear to be a little more difficult to make high density work, relatively, as well as low density ones, although the difference is likely small enough to not be worth the loss of low iso detail from higher density i suspect and some say it can actually more easily lead to better low ISO SNR/DR (high density)
 
With all the uproars of 50D noise, rightly or wrongly, I'm certain Canon will not release a camera that does not have at least as good noise as 50D.
 
A lot of people on this forum seem to deny, vehemently and aggressively, that sensors with smaller pixels have a higher percentage of noise in their output than sensors of similar design with larger pixels. They are strange and deluded people with zero understanding of how these things actually work.
And those people are right.

Here are a few links to posts of a physics professor with "zero understanding." May we know what makes you so confident that you understand it better?

http://theory.uchicago.edu/~ejm/pix/20d/tests/noise/noise-p3#pixelsize
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=31922352
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=31922793
From the first link:

"There is an advantage to big pixels in low light (high ISO) applications, where read noise is an important detractor from image quality, and big pixels currently have lower read noise than aggregations of small pixels of equal area. For low ISO applications, the situation is reversed in current implementations -- if anything, smaller pixels perform somewhat better in terms of S/N ratio (while offering more resolution). "
 

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