F707: as good at it will ever get

I know all the messages in here show great excitement as well as worry, about the new Sony F717.

People are worried that their $1000 investment in the F707 will be made obsolete by new technology.

I'm sure that Sony has made some minor improvements with the F707. But when it comes to camera BASICS, like picture quality, the zoom reach and aperture of the lens, I think the F707 is as good as its going to get.

Here is my analysis:

The reason why the F707 has so many compelling features for only $1000 (and some have paid a lot less than that) is because of its small sensor size. The F707 CCD is tiny compared to 35mm film (which is 24mm by 36mm--why do they call it 35mm?). This enables Sony to design a lens that has such a long zoom range yet still is fast (F2 to F2.4). There is no comparable lens in the 35mm world. The Canon 28mm to 70mm F2.8 L lens costs more than $1000 (maybe $1500) and by itself weighs a lot more than the whole F707.

Because the CCD is so much smaller than film, the lens has to be of extremely high quality to do as good a job as the Sony does. I'm sure the reason why Sony gets higher resolution figures than any other digital camera is because of the high quality Carl Zeiss lens. It is probably the CZ lens which also enables the Sony to have more saturated colors.

In order to make a camera with more pixels than 5 million, Sony will have to either make bigger lenses, or people will have to settle for a much more modest lens, or more likely both will happen. The cost of the camera will go up because the glass will be bigger and more expensive. And then the camera will be priced out of reach of the target audience.

With 5 million pixels already enough to produce very high quality 8 x 10 prints (as anyone who has printed a Sony F707 picture can attest to), 5 million pixels may be the end of the line in the prosumer all-in-one category.

The future, for those who want higher quality than the F707, will be full frame (that is CCD the same 24mm x 36mm size of 35mm film) SLR cameras that are AFFORDABLE. There is a rumor elsewhere that Canon is going to announce such a camera... a much more signficant rumor than the rumored F717.

I should add that there's nothing magical about the 24mm x 36mm size; but no one wants to design or buy a whole new lens systems for a different sized CCD.

Good points, CM -

But they ignore another key point and reason for cameras like the F717: The battle is not over quality at this stage. It's about features.

The quality of the F707 can be said to be excellent --- NOW. But remember, there are plenty of us who have not had our cameras handled by Sony or who had our cameras MIS-handled by Sony and are still left with a raft-load of problems such as DLS or white balance issues (my camera has them, and I work around them) or other factors.

For users like that, the refinements and added features are a huge draw.

For recent purchasers, your digital enjoyment is more secure. The F717 will not make the F707 obsolete, as you put it. That's just a mental barrier for some users who just don't work hard enough to get to know their cameras if they feel that way.

Great post. Mine was just a sort of explanatory footnote to that.

Capital Man said:

I know all the messages in here show great excitement as well as
worry, about the new Sony F717.

People are worried that their $1000 investment in the F707 will be
made obsolete by new technology.

Click to expand...

--

Ulysses

Ulysses said:

But they ignore another key point and reason for cameras like the
F717: The battle is not over quality at this stage. It's about
features.

Click to expand...

The only two "features" that most consumer camera purchasers seem to care about is number of megapixels and how many X the zoom is (the latter being an overvalued features--I prefer the fast high quality 5X zoom lens on the Sony vs a slower and lower quality zoom that's 8X).

The feature I care most about is image quality. A much harder feature to advertise. The differences between cameras are very subtle. You don't see any comparison adverstising between brands. Sony probably wouldn't to comparison advertise. Nikon is a competitor, but also a big customer. Sony doesn't want to get companies like Nikon the slightest bit mad.

And back to the zoom... I admit its useful. Walk around with a camera with just a 50mm prime lens, and I see how many shots I can't take because I don't have to the 5X zoom.

Ulysses said:

For recent purchasers, your digital enjoyment is more secure. The
F717 will not make the F707 obsolete, as you put it. That's just a
mental barrier for some users who just don't work hard enough to
get to know their cameras if they feel that way.

Click to expand...

Very well said, Ulysses! It's not like the release of a new camera will suddenly damage the ability of our 707s to take excellent photos. Even if the new camera is wonderful and a huge improvement, our current cameras will keep on working just as well as they have been.

Claiming them obsolete is just a side effect of wanting the newest thing.

Rick.

Capital Man said:

The only two "features" that most consumer camera purchasers seem
to care about is number of megapixels and how many X the zoom is
(the latter being an overvalued features--I prefer the fast high
quality 5X zoom lens on the Sony vs a slower and lower quality zoom
that's 8X).

Click to expand...

Those two would seem to be among the more popular "features" that consumers look at.

But I'm talking about things from the company's perspective, not the consumer. They make the effort the differentiate themselves from their cmopetitors. And they're wise not to do the kind of comparison that the consumer and/or reviewer can afford to do, because they'd always be accused of comparing apples to oranges.

I totally agree with you. The 5x is really all you need in this lens. For more, get an add-on lens. It's cheaper, and it's not forced upon you if you don't need it.

--

Ulysses

Well, it's like the other day a young lady posted here as to whether she should upgrade from the F505V to the F707. She was obviously having a great time with the V and had learned to deal with some of its problem areas. My advice to her was to stick with what she had until she could no longer tolerate the problems or a camera came along that would completely solve those problems without introducing other intolerable ones.

For myself, my camera has always had some issues that I can't WAIT to unload myself of. So, likelihood is that I'm going to move on. And it might not be to the F717. Then again, it might be. )

I don't much care who makes it. I just want less distraction during my pitcha taking.

Rick Pali said:

Ulysses said:

For recent purchasers, your digital enjoyment is more secure. The
F717 will not make the F707 obsolete, as you put it. That's just a
mental barrier for some users who just don't work hard enough to
get to know their cameras if they feel that way.

Click to expand...

Very well said, Ulysses! It's not like the release of a new camera
will suddenly damage the ability of our 707s to take excellent
photos. Even if the new camera is wonderful and a huge improvement,
our current cameras will keep on working just as well as they have
been.

Claiming them obsolete is just a side effect of wanting the newest
thing.

Rick.

Click to expand...

--

Ulysses

Hi Ulysses!

I am not even sure whether the 717 will be better than the 707.
Take a look at the Nikon CP995 that replaced the 990.
The 990 was better. The 995 was a pricedriven replacement.

Greetings from Dani

Rick Pali said:

Very well said, Ulysses! It's not like the release of a new camera
will suddenly damage the ability of our 707s to take excellent
photos. Even if the new camera is wonderful and a huge improvement,
our current cameras will keep on working just as well as they have
been.

Claiming them obsolete is just a side effect of wanting the newest
thing.

Click to expand...

Well, lets be honest. Most of us bought the F707 because we wanted the BEST. When it's no longer the best, we will be disappointed.

Luckily for current owners, the F717 looks like the same camera. Nothing changed at all. Maybe Sony added a cloudy white balance, the one feature I most desire. It's always cloudy here in Washington, DC.

Cloudy white balance? I guess Shay (of Seattle) will be first in line Say it so, Joe

Capital Man said:

Rick Pali said:

Very well said, Ulysses! It's not like the release of a new camera
will suddenly damage the ability of our 707s to take excellent
photos. Even if the new camera is wonderful and a huge improvement,
our current cameras will keep on working just as well as they have
been.

Claiming them obsolete is just a side effect of wanting the newest
thing.

Click to expand...

Well, lets be honest. Most of us bought the F707 because we wanted
the BEST. When it's no longer the best, we will be disappointed.
Luckily for current owners, the F717 looks like the same camera.
Nothing changed at all. Maybe Sony added a cloudy white balance,
the one feature I most desire. It's always cloudy here in
Washington, DC.

Click to expand...

--

-photoave http://phillywood.com An Amalgam of images. Remember to place a ';' after image links in your replies so it helps our dialup friends when viewing threads.

It is the Sept. 17, 2115.

Sony has just announced the new HoloCamera Z707. With a 25 Trillion pixel Design Holographic DCD, 100X 360 degree Lens. 1.1 Millisecond Zoom Lens. Plus it has Full Motion Holographic Capture mode depending on the available memory. Full Generation 6 Night Vision. Record your Kids Baseball Game in Full 3d Realism and relive the Event for Years to come, On your Sony Holo Home Emitter. The Price is a Steal at only $50,000.00. This camera is well within everyone’s range at this price. I Remember just a Few years ago it would have cost around $100,000.00+ for a HoloCamera of this magnitude.

Sony said that the new upgraded Memory Modules would work in all of their products including the PlayStation 12.

Although an Adapter will be Out Shortly to allow the new Memory Module to Fit Sony's Aibo 3035 fully autonomous Robot Dog.

HAHAHEHE
Thanks.
Joe M.

Daniela Duerbeck said:

Hi Ulysses!

I am not even sure whether the 717 will be better than the 707.
Take a look at the Nikon CP995 that replaced the 990.
The 990 was better. The 995 was a pricedriven replacement.

Greetings from Dani

Click to expand...

Capital Man said:

Well, lets be honest. Most of us bought the F707 because we wanted
the BEST. When it's no longer the best, we will be disappointed.

Click to expand...

Hahahah... this much is true.

Capital Man said:

Luckily for current owners, the F717 looks like the same camera.
Nothing changed at all.

Click to expand...

Well, like you said. Let's be honest. It's just not that simple.

--

Ulysses

Hi Dani -

Respectfully, what's a Nikonian camera history got to do with anything here?

Daniela Duerbeck said:

Hi Ulysses!

I am not even sure whether the 717 will be better than the 707.
Take a look at the Nikon CP995 that replaced the 990.
The 990 was better. The 995 was a pricedriven replacement.

Greetings from Dani

Click to expand...

--

Ulysses

Capital Man said:

Well, lets be honest. Most of us bought the F707 because we wanted
the BEST.

Click to expand...

I won't claim to speak for anyone else but I bought it because I sifted through camera info and reviews to find which camera had the features and abilities I was looking for. That's perhaps my fancy way of saying 'the best,' but I think it might be more accurate to say that I bought it because it's the best for me.

Capital Man said:

When it's no longer the best, we will be disappointed.

Click to expand...

That's assuming that the new version will improve on all of the things I find imporatnt without buggering them up or adding something new that I cannot tolerate.

I like the newest thing just as much as the next person but if the new thing isn't as good a fit as the thing I have, there's no real point in upgrading. In this case, the f717 has the additional hardship of needing to be significantly better than the f707 to justify the cost of upgrading. I believe that it's possible, but it's not going to be an easy job!

Rick.

I think we can all be thankful that the new F717 isn't going to make our F707 obsolete.

I think that Moore's Law no longer applies to prosumer digital cameras. A year ago the F707 came out, and a now a year later the Sony upgrade camera has the same number of megapixels.

Megapixels certainly aren't doubling every 18 months. In fact, I thin knext summer, 5 megapixels will still be the top of consumer cameras, but by that time there may be a Canon DSLR with more than 6 megapixels.

Hi Ulysses!

Member said:

Respectfully, what's a Nikonian camera history got to do with
anything here?

Click to expand...

Ok, You're right. So, if the numbering is correct and the next model is a 717, so perhaps it's an update like the DSC S75 to the S70.

Greetings from Dani

P.S: Why does nobody want to hear that perhaps the update is just cosmetics? (Or makes the new model cheaper in manufacturing) ))

Of course, there will be better cameras than the F707, eventually. technology and improved optics will produce a faster functioning, better image quality and easier operating camera. But I think that once the F707 comes off the production line, the F707 will be refered to as the Legendary F707. I can see myself using my F707 for years, even if I were to buy another camera later on. Sony will stop production when the feature set is not enough to compete in the consumer market., not because other manufacturers are producing "better "cameras.

--
BillyL

Daniela Duerbeck said:

Ok, You're right. So, if the numbering is correct and the next
model is a 717, so perhaps it's an update like the DSC S75 to the S70.

Click to expand...

Sort of.

Daniela Duerbeck said:

P.S: Why does nobody want to hear that perhaps the update is just
cosmetics? (Or makes the new model cheaper in manufacturing) ))

Click to expand...

Cosmetics imply body surface changes. The F717 appears to have a few of those types of alterations. We don't know if it's for the better... yet.

But there are deeper changes that are implied. For example, the CD400 is not exactly the same camera as the F707 with a CD drive. It has other things about it that demonstrate a bit of forward progress. We can expect the F717 to expand upon that progress.

So it's not just cosmetics. It is likely to be usability enhancements, too.

--

Ulysses

BillyL said:

Of course, there will be better cameras than the F707, eventually.
technology and improved optics will produce a faster functioning,
better image quality and easier operating camera. But I think
that once the F707 comes off the production line, the F707 will be
refered to as the Legendary F707. I can see myself using my F707
for years, even if I were to buy another camera later on. Sony
will stop production when the feature set is not enough to compete
in the consumer market., not because other manufacturers are
producing "better "cameras.

--
BillyL

Click to expand...

Does the new f717 have a b/w mode?