E-620X (or pro-spec E-620: a wishlist)

I'd like to know how you can improve on the 620 DR, which is 9.3 in Jpeg, and 11.2 in RAW, according to DPR tests.

No recent camera past or present has such a DR - LOL!
Maybe not in JPEGs, but in RAW, the D5000 has another 1.4 stops according to DPR.
That's plain BS. According to DPR in RAW the 620 has 11.2 stops while the N 5000 has 11.1.
Nope. D5000, ACR Best: 12.7 stops ( http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond5000/page19.asp )

E-620, ACR Best: 11.3 stops ( http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympuse620/page16.asp )
Yes you are right. However 'Best' usually ruins colours, so the information is about meaningless.
And in Jpeg, perhaps more importantly, the 620 has 9.2 EV against the Nikon's 8.8 EV.
Which is wonderful to know, if you plan on only shooting JPEGs with the default settings. Otherwise, you can certainly do better with either camera.
Well it is usually difficult to get better colours than Oly engine does. But YMMV.

Perhaps you forget colours because of your focus problems with the 620? Oh, dear...

Am.

--
Photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/amalric
 
Sorry to pop in, but I have used the D90 and the E-30 side by side, and it was inconclusive: the D90 had a bit more highlight DR, and the E-30 more in the shadows. I guess in the end it wasn't something to worry about. The D5000's sensor is the same as the D90 and that of the E-620 the same as the E-30, so it should be the same if you compare D5000 with the E-620. One camera (E-620/E-30) has nothing to envy the other one (D90/D5000) in dynamic range, is what I would say.
Hmm... I found a more significant difference when I checked, but it was some time ago and I can't seem to find the files. Overall, I would agree that it's not a big deal in practice.

However, I can't agree with alamric's claim upthread that the E-620's DR is better in all respects than other current cameras, even if we restrict ourselves to the sub-$1000 market.
This was tested in RAW.

I also compared them with my S3pro. Now, talking about a difference...! It simply scares both the D90 and the E-30 away!
Yeah, the Fuji is excellent for DR. Though I have to say that if you expose to the right, the D700 is pretty darn good too.

Cheers,

--
MFBernstein

'Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit.' - Ed Abbey
 
This sounds like it'd be a great camera, but I'd be very surprised if it sold in today's market at the price you've mentioned (though I'd be all over it if it did). I'd say it'd cost much closer to 2k, and I think the eventual E3 replacement will too, unfortuantely.

Maybe something a bit less ambitious would be possible for around your pricing, say weathersealing (without mag alloy), a slightly better viewfinder, AF equal to E3/E30 .

Anyway, the chances of it ever appearing are pretty slim (as you've said yourself), it looks like the top of the line is the only place Olympus will be using weathersealing, which is a real shame when you consider there are weathersealed lenses like the 50mm macro, 14-54 & 12-60 which would be perfect on a 650g body. The only thing that I'd imagine could change this would be if the K-7 was a huge success, but given Pentax's market share I doubt that's going to happen.
 
According to DPR in RAW the 620 has 11.2 stops while the N 5000 has 11.1.
May I ask where you see that? If it is the table of Raw Headroom stats, I am interested to know which one you think most relevant as a measure of raw DR (ACR default, auto, or best).
 
According to DPR in RAW the 620 has 11.2 stops while the N 5000 has 11.1.
May I ask where you see that? If it is the table of Raw Headroom stats, I am interested to know which one you think most relevant as a measure of raw DR (ACR default, auto, or best).
I corrected above. Bernstein has the correct figures for ACR Best. However I think that Jpeg DR is more significant.

Recovery is a powerful tool in ACR, but pushed at the limit it cannot recover true colours.

In practical experience the 620 has terrific Dynamic Range. This was just a dream some months ago.

Am.

--
Photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/amalric
 
In practical experience the 620 has terrific Dynamic Range. This was just a dream some months ago.
I agree.

As to the rest of my question, these are the Raw stats that I see in the two reviews:

Adobe Camera Raw default: E-620 7.2, D5000 7.2
ACR Auto: E-620 9.2, D5000 9.5
ACR Best: E-620 11.3, D5000 12.7

The reviews themselves emphasize that Raw headroom stats may not be the best way to evaluate IQ.

That said, my new E-620's Raw DR apparently will approach or equal, but not exceed that of my D5000 (which at the moment has been recalled for the second time, a disgrace I must hope ends happily).

Yes, the E-620 has a JPEG DR advantage. People have their reasons for shooting JPEG vs. Raw--a separate discussion, for sure. With the E-300, E-500, and E-510, I have found Olympus auto white balance to be fairly predictable, although in need of minor color correction. The D5000 also needs that, and has less predictable auto WB in the outdoors, requiring me to shoot Raw. But then I discovered what additional detail and sharpness were available that way.

To put a fine point on it, the E-620's JPEG DR advantage may come at the cost of more noise in the shadows and blacks that are less black, no?
 
This sounds like it'd be a great camera, but I'd be very surprised if it sold in today's market at the price you've mentioned (though I'd be all over it if it did). I'd say it'd cost much closer to 2k, and I think the eventual E3 replacement will too, unfortuantely.
You may well be right. I guess my numbers were based mainly on the notion that the original E-3 was brought in at $1700, and this camera would be somewhat less ambitious in terms of the amount of new R&D required. Similar to the Pentax K-7 or whatnot.
Maybe something a bit less ambitious would be possible for around your pricing, say weathersealing (without mag alloy), a slightly better viewfinder, AF equal to E3/E30 .
Yeah, that would certainly be easier.
Anyway, the chances of it ever appearing are pretty slim (as you've said yourself), it looks like the top of the line is the only place Olympus will be using weathersealing, which is a real shame when you consider there are weathersealed lenses like the 50mm macro, 14-54 & 12-60 which would be perfect on a 650g body.
Basically what I've been thinking too. And weight isn't an absolute for me. Neither is size. I just know from experience that an E-3-sized camera is a pain to carry around the neck all day when scrambling up boulder fields and whatnot...
The only thing that I'd imagine could change this would be if the K-7 was a huge success, but given Pentax's market share I doubt that's going to happen.
Sadly I would agree there too. Pentax is in a rough spot and I don't know if the K-7 will save them.

Thanks for your thoughts! Cheers,

--
MFBernstein

'Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit.' - Ed Abbey
 
Could they do a weather sealed plastic body? Many people might like a camera that could keep shooting in the elements but wouldn't be likely to subject it to serious abuse like a pro.
Sure. That's basically what Pentax did with the K200D.
I think a weather-sealed E-620 (maybe a little more grip?) that sold for $900 - $1150 kitted with the 14-54 mkII - would do quite well. The kit, especially, would attract new users to the system.
$900 sounds plausible for the camera. But given the 14-54 is around $550, I don't think you'll see a kit that low. Not for a while, anyhow.
It would essentially come down to the weather proof ruggedness of the E-621 vs. the HD video of the D90, Rebel T1i. As someone who sells cameras, I'm pretty sure the weather sealing would win out a lot of the time.
I wouldn't be surprised. There is one issue though, with pulling weather-sealing down-market: you're going to get less careful users (and more of them) with differing expectations for the weather-sealing (e.g. weather-sealed != water-proof). This means more warranty claims to work through. Given that the actual definition of weather-sealed (and the warranty on such products) are already subject to debate, I can foresee a certain amount of headache here.
And then if they could get a good superzoom lens going ... HG 14-150 f/4-5.6 for $650 perhaps?
A number of folks have been suggesting that. I'd love to see it, and I think it would sell very well at that price. That said, I think making a 14-150 to the same level of optical excellence as the rest of the HG line, especially at that price, would be a tall order. It would however be the first (and only) weather-resistant superzoom on the market...

Interesting ideas. Thanks for sharing,

--
MFBernstein

'Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit.' - Ed Abbey
 
Sounds like what you may be looking for is a pro spec 5x0. Anything smaller would be kinda silly with the pro spec glass that is out there, IMHO.

--
Stu
http://www.flickr.com/photos/stujoe/
Eee Six Two Zero

.
 
It should have the E-510's grip--please!--and as long as they're going to do that, the E-510's battery.

I would gladly trade the additional micrograms for these things.
 
Sounds like what you may be looking for is a pro spec 5x0. Anything smaller would be kinda silly with the pro spec glass that is out there, IMHO.
Well, I find the difference in size of the E-5xx and E-6xx series pretty minimal, so I've no objection to starting with the former.

That might mean no flip LCD, but that's fine by me (at least until they add CDAF support to the 12-60!).

Cheers,

--
MFBernstein

'Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit.' - Ed Abbey
 
I think a weather-sealed E-620 (maybe a little more grip?) that sold for $900 - $1150 kitted with the 14-54 mkII - would do quite well. The kit, especially, would attract new users to the system.
$900 sounds plausible for the camera. But given the 14-54 is around $550, I don't think you'll see a kit that low. Not for a while, anyhow.
It's an ambitious price point, for sure. But I don't see Oly releasing a camera like this just because it's what the faithful want. They need to know it's going to draw new users to the system - users who appreciate sturdy cameras and good glass. A new user needs at least one lens to get started. You can either have it be an objection ("$900 for the camera plus another $550 for the lens? That's really starting to add up ...") or a selling point ("Wow, if I buy the kit that sweet lens is only $250! And I can afford a memory card, extra battery and bag and still stay under $1500.")
And then if they could get a good superzoom lens going ... HG 14-150 f/4-5.6 for $650 perhaps?
A number of folks have been suggesting that. I'd love to see it, and I think it would sell very well at that price.
Maybe even differentiate the lens a little bit from the competition and make it a 14-100 f/4 ...
 
To put a fine point on it, the E-620's JPEG DR advantage may come at the cost of more noise in the shadows and blacks that are less black, no?
Well this has been discussed by DPR. They said that Oly could have clipped blacks, but instead decided to leave more headroom in the shadows, therefore with more details but also more noise.

You can always increase blacks in PP, if you don't care about detail.

Am.
--
Photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/amalric
 
I think a weather-sealed E-620 (maybe a little more grip?) that sold for $900 - $1150 kitted with the 14-54 mkII - would do quite well. The kit, especially, would attract new users to the system.
$900 sounds plausible for the camera. But given the 14-54 is around $550, I don't think you'll see a kit that low. Not for a while, anyhow.
It's an ambitious price point, for sure. But I don't see Oly releasing a camera like this just because it's what the faithful want. They need to know it's going to draw new users to the system - users who appreciate sturdy cameras and good glass. A new user needs at least one lens to get started. You can either have it be an objection ("$900 for the camera plus another $550 for the lens? That's really starting to add up ...") or a selling point ("Wow, if I buy the kit that sweet lens is only $250! And I can afford a memory card, extra battery and bag and still stay under $1500.")
Fair enough - I'm just a bit skeptical they can afford to discount the 14-54 to that extent (I think the lowest I've seen it sold for new was in the $450 range). It would certainly be in their interest to provide a good normal zoom kit lens in the $300 range. Nikon's 18-105 is a good example of what can be done in that area...
And then if they could get a good superzoom lens going ... HG 14-150 f/4-5.6 for $650 perhaps?
A number of folks have been suggesting that. I'd love to see it, and I think it would sell very well at that price.
Maybe even differentiate the lens a little bit from the competition and make it a 14-100 f/4 ...
Theoretically, it shouldn't be terribly difficult - take one of those 18-135/4-5.6 APS-C designs and put a 1.4x focal reducer on the back. In practice, I suspect it may be a bit trickier though.

Cheers,

--
MFBernstein

'Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit.' - Ed Abbey
 
Well this has been discussed by DPR. They said that Oly could have clipped blacks, but instead decided to leave more headroom in the shadows, therefore with more details but also more noise.
You can always increase blacks in PP, if you don't care about detail.
Of course. Similarly, I have seen it claimed that the D5000's Standard Picture Mode has slightly less DR than Neutral Picture Mode because the former achieves its greater contrast by clipping to black sooner.

One thing that intrigues me, however, is the extent to which noise itself (or perhaps the processing necessary to control it) interferes with rendering detail and color. DPR's review said that they didn't see a problem with it, but that is a very general statement. I hope to see for myself.
 
11. Improve the sensor: better (less) noise above ISO 800 and without banding, improve DR. Have the same or better OOC jpeg output as the E-3.
Haven't noticed any banding yet. OOC JPEGs seem good to me - was there something specific you wanted from the E-3? DR - well, one can always have more, but it seem to be pretty good at ISO 200-400.
I was thinking of low-light high ISO shots with regard to DR and noise. I should have said that. But you're right, the current sensor is very good as is.
If you're gonna make all those upgrades to the body, why not the sensor also?
Well, I wanted to keep the whole thing within the 'generally feasible' range. Major sensor improvements are, IMO, unlikely at this stage, and the existing sensor is pretty decent in the areas you describe. Indeed, if anything, my request would be for improving low ISO performance (noise at ISO 100), but horses for courses and all that.
Fair enough. Guess I'm being a bit greedy.

Back to your original thoughts, for me, a little larger OVF and higher resolution LCD, and weather sealing would be my wants. (I'm being greedy again)
 
11. Improve the sensor: better (less) noise above ISO 800 and without banding, improve DR. Have the same or better OOC jpeg output as the E-3.
Haven't noticed any banding yet. OOC JPEGs seem good to me - was there something specific you wanted from the E-3? DR - well, one can always have more, but it seem to be pretty good at ISO 200-400.
I was thinking of low-light high ISO shots with regard to DR and noise.
Okay, got it now.
I should have said that. But you're right, the current sensor is very good as is.
I'm not so sure about that. I'd simply say that unlike the previous generation, it has no glaring flaws.
If you're gonna make all those upgrades to the body, why not the sensor also?
Well, I wanted to keep the whole thing within the 'generally feasible' range. Major sensor improvements are, IMO, unlikely at this stage, and the existing sensor is pretty decent in the areas you describe. Indeed, if anything, my request would be for improving low ISO performance (noise at ISO 100), but horses for courses and all that.
Fair enough. Guess I'm being a bit greedy.

Back to your original thoughts, for me, a little larger OVF and higher resolution LCD, and weather sealing would be my wants. (I'm being greedy again)
I wouldn't call that greedy! Only the weather-sealing would likely require major work on Olympus' part.

Certainly compared to those things bringing the AF system up to snuff or getting another 1/3 stop less noise at ISO 3200 are much taller orders. I'm slightly more hopeful about the AF than the sensor, but I'm not holding my breath...

Cheers,

--
MFBernstein

'Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit.' - Ed Abbey
 

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