Ep1,G1, GH1, GF1... enough with the toys !! when do we get a real camera ?

…the pent-up potential of µ4thirds.

Harold,

I find your rant delightful.
Thank you. I decided to take that remark as a compliment . :) :) :)

Although I do not agree with your description of the offerings so far as being “toys”, or with some of your emotion-charged conclusions, what your diatribe clearly demonstrates is the tremendous potential of the new format.
that is my point.
I can appreciate the dearth of high-end hardware offerings causing some anxiousness and frustration, but let’s be practical. Introducing a new digital imaging system is a very expensive proposition, especially these days in a sinking global economy. The developers must get the most bang for their investment bucks in order to survive (and for the format to survive), so they are targeting what they believe to be the largest potential market segment with their initial offerings – which I believe they are doing quite well.
Agreed 100% and I believe I said that upfront
I think that both Olympus and Panasonic have some great “first offerings”, and I think that in 2 to 5 years the playing field will look a whole lot different – perhaps you will find what you are looking for by then, and perhaps you will be able to afford it.
hope I won't be too old to enjoy it by then :)
Harold

--
http://www.harold-glit.com
http://www.modelmayhem.com/haroldglit
 
It seems like this new format is toy driven by people who want their camera to look and be the size of an i-pod or an i-phone
I can sympathise with the notion that a product format can become too small, one only has to look at mobile phones to see this. But be careful; there are many who would regard your E system cams as toys (I mean, the sensor size wouldn’t exactly impress a medium format using commercial photographer, now would it? ;-) )
I am not disputing the fact that from a sales point of view , it is wiser to address that market segment first. but there is obviously a big market for Mlenses owners who :
want a black hand holdable body which looks like a tool and not a toy
Again, I repeat my earlier remarks that it seems to me that mFT is trying to get away from the old-school notion of what is and isn’t a serious tool. And the “looks like a tool and not a toy” mentality is a very male thing; far too many men need some macho looking tool to prop up their ego.
want to have AF lenses in the 24 -85mm range and HAVE the option to use in real life their M lenses and get some focus coformation
Well, it may not be entirely to your tastes but one of the rumoured forthcoming Leica lenses is a 36-100mm (equiv) lens. I don’t get your having a go at Oly and Panny re M lenses as there quite a few M lens adaptors. Focus confirmation, hmm that would be nice.
don't need a flash in their camera but prefer to keep the hotshoe for optional OVF and have the built in EVF on the left side like in a rangefinder
Well, what’s stopping someone from using an OVF on the G1/GH1 if that OVF has the necessary parallax adjustments?
pay a little more for some weather seal and don't care for video
I pretty much argued from Day One, that it would be real cool if there was a G1/GH1 type pro-spec body with weather sealing, dual memory cards slots, wireless flash etc etc etc. So I agree with you there. But I don’t agree with you in the sense of criticizing Oly or Panny because the day is still young as far as mFT is concerned.

Well, your “don’t care for video” is again revealing your “stuck in the mud” mindset. If you don’t want the video, simply don’t press the video button. ;-) The fact is, video and stills convergence is the way things are going, and already many photo-journalists are being asked by agencies to provide multimedia submissions.

I don’t care for video AT THE MOMENT simply because at present I am a sh!t photographer and have enough probs trying to learn photography without adding video to the mix :-) but if ever I get to grips with stills I WILL HAVE TO learn video if I want to continue being an image maker (unless of course I don’t intend to make any money from image making)
want a camera to be small but not to the point where the camera does not fit regular hands or can only be ergonomic with tiny lenses
I doubt the mFT cams can be made much bigger as the whole (well, a very significant part of the) raison d’etre of mFT is ……….. small.
a Ep1 size witha bigger grip for better hand holdability ( and a bigger battery and two cards ) is the direction to go
Well, that camera currently would be called either the G1 or GH1 ;-) For the future yes, twin card slots would be great. The battery capacity can be increased by way of a battery grip or increasing the capacity of the current size of battery.
if Oly and Pana are not interested , they could at least invite someone in.

the crazy thing is that they don't , someone will do it in the APS-C format ( canon I suspect)
Someone may correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t think Oly and Panny have excluded anyone. As far as I am aware mFT is a standard open to anyone to join. And I think you have overly optimistic hopes as to what Canon may do, after all they have their precious EOS cams to protect so they may not be too keen to introduce something that undermines the existence of their current high end EOS cams.
Regards
 
...you said yourself Harold and I really think you are being stuborn on this. The first m 4/3's cameras are for a specific public. I'll show you an example....

ww.youtube.com/watch?v=S4AT4d8tfCs

ww.youtube.com/watch?v= TYCzC7LLhg

ww.youtube.com/watch?v=m9Et7UQh1tg

...hope you can SEE the different users for both cameras. But that didn't stop me from buying a silver E-P1 with a 17mm (a lens I was hoping and waiting for a long time) for 800€. If I need primes right now, I'll use my 21, 24 and 90 f 2 OM zuiko's and 25,35 and 50 D Zuiko's on my E3. The E-P1 is my street camera and the 17 focal lenght is just right. Silver was, I'm sure you know, quite common and its still a very prestige look. Olympus as stated that they are after the young and specially the female customer pretty obvious with the white version, obviously not you. Did you saw who's the face for the E-P1? And did you saw the Olympus E-P1 site?
I guess not, you should look into.
I for one think you just want to talk. ;)

Regards
João
 
Most People comment on things I never said. oh well , it must be me :))

Terreve wrote:

If you are concerned about not being taken seriously as a photographer, put a big lens on it, that will do the trick.

I could not care LESS about being taken seriously or not. I care being not being too obvious when making pictures in the crowd. I want me and my camera to blend in NOT to stand out
thinking about it , this is probably why I don't wear red or silver shoes :))))

H

--
http://www.harold-glit.com
http://www.modelmayhem.com/haroldglit
 
...you said yourself Harold and I really think you are being stuborn on this.
if you say so , it must be true . right ?

Silver was, I'm sure you know, quite common and its still a very prestige look.
Yes , prestige it is
I just prefer a camera that blends it rather than one which stands out
but hey , each to his own... if prestige is what you are looking for

Olympus as stated that they are after the young and specially the female customer pretty obvious with the white version, obviously not you.
I never thought that they would ( or should for that matter :) )

Harold
--
http://www.harold-glit.com
http://www.modelmayhem.com/haroldglit
 
:)
One thing I'm sure, I know you love photography like me.
Best wishes Harold

Regards

João
 
This is sooo funny!
Good I can provide you with a good laugh . It may have to do that you did not understand ONE thing about what I wrote
The m4/3 system was introduced to allow for significantly smaller camera bodies and lenses. It is to a great part aimed at people who wouldn't dare buying a dslr as they don't want the size, the look or weight of a dslr. So to criticize that the new bodies don't look or feel like a dslr seems hard to justify, right?
and yes and WHERE do you see me write that it should have a dslr. as a matter of fact i think the G1 was initially shaped like a dslr because Panasonic was afraid of being burnt like they were with the L1 and the Lc1

so since you mace that one up , let me tell you ,. I think the shape of the Ep1 or GF1 is the RIGHT one .

I don't want a m4/3 to be shaped differently . I just wish they would be better designed and offer serious single focal lenghts
The focus on pancake primes is another logical result of the system: big, heavy lenses are definately harder to handle on such a small body and also beats the intended purpose as light-weight and small.
No NOT TRUE AT ALL . You can have 12mm , 20,, 40mm designed and not be bigger than the current oly kit zoom
What I really wonder is why you are still using the E-3. Doesn't it have one of these toyish small 4/3 sensors? Go FF - anything else is just toys. :D
AGAIN , made up stuff. you must be smoking something. As a matter of fact , I have been saying for the last 3 years on these forums that the 4/3 sensor is a great size and for sure the best compromise for me in terms of portability versus image quality

the e3 , like the E1 is a real tool for photographers
Harold

--
http://www.harold-glit.com
http://www.modelmayhem.com/haroldglit
 
THIS was not my point. as I wrote , what makes these camera more toy-like was a series of characteristics. not just the color . Please READ my thread before commenting on it
Odd, I read your post and here's what it said:
all 4 cameras are more TOYS than TOOLS. This is obvious from the choice of > finishes ( sliver only for oly , red and blue for pana)
It clearly states they are toys which is obvious because of color choices (and you so carefully excluded black). What else should I infer from that comment. Maybe you should more clearly state what it is you mean before you solicit comments from absurd statements.

Fred
 
all 4 cameras are more TOYS than TOOLS. This is obvious from the choice of > finishes ( sliver only for oly , red and blue for pana)
It clearly states they are toys which is obvious because of color choices (and you so carefully excluded black). What else should I infer from that comment. Maybe you should more clearly state what it is you mean before you solicit comments from absurd statements.
No it does not , if you are honest enough to quote the WHOLE sentence and not a portion of it
but you know that already of course
Harold

--
http://www.harold-glit.com
http://www.modelmayhem.com/haroldglit
 
Harold66 wrote:

AGAIN , I called then toy-like for many reasons other than the color in case there is daring person here who bother to read my entire post and not take out the first sentence
Yes, Harold, I read your entire post and your many replies, and I agree with at least one part, the lack of good lenses, especially primes. The art filters, I just ignore. The other points have been addressed. Your first statement about the E-P1 being silver, however, clearly indicated that the color choice stuck in your craw, and many other people mentioned that point. My point is, it doesn't matter, and that certainly doesn't contribute IMHO to making it a toy. Regarding black and stealth photography, someone else made the point, a camera like the E-P1 probably labels you to the average person on the street as some clueless point and shooter rather than a serious photographer, much less so than someone hefting a big, black Canon (or Nikon, or Sony).

Michael
 
I find your rant delightful.
Thank you. I decided to take that remark as a compliment . :) :) :)
Yes. I don't have to agree with all of your comments (or, at least the extent of them) in order to appreciate your taking the time to post your heart-felt opinion, and respecting it! :) :) :)
Although I do not agree with your description of the offerings so far as being “toys”, or with some of your emotion-charged conclusions, what your diatribe clearly demonstrates is the tremendous potential of the new format.
that is my point.
And I can empathize with you in the areas where I feel more restrained! ;) ;) ;)
I think that both Olympus and Panasonic have some great “first offerings”, and I think that in 2 to 5 years the playing field will look a whole lot different – perhaps you will find what you are looking for by then, and perhaps you will be able to afford it.
hope I won't be too old to enjoy it by then :)
Same here, hang in there! :D :D :D :D

--
-Dennis W.
Austin, Texas

 
I have to agree w/ Nick. To state a camera (or any other tool) is a toy because it is not black, just calls into question the credibility of all your other statements even though they are legitimate. Very few professional quality tools in any field are all black, and that certainly doesn't make them a toy.
What about large pro lenses that are white, stuck on the black pro cameras. There have been plenty of pro silver topped slr's in the past as well. Although I would have to say the G1 in the two colours they do does look cheap. Dreadful colours to make any camera out of even P&S ones.
As to features you don't want/like, don't use them. The relevant point, in my opinion, is does it have features you need for the types of photos you shoot. Use those and ignore the rest. Most of the ones you don't like are just firmware options and add very little to the cost of development and certainly don't interfere w/ the features you do like, so I don't see the problem.

Bottom line is w/ electronics and software making it so easy to provide "features" (wanted or otherwise) engineers tend load models up lots of useless features along with some that are incredibly useful.

Welcome to the digital age. Might as well get used to it, because its not going away.

Fred
 
Good for you . I am not saying you can ' t take pictures with it , just that is

a flawed camera in many respects .... and btw , I still think the G1 although unavailable black body only is the most useful of the 3 we have so far
All cameras are flawed, one way or another.
YES, Nice but in practicality , you have only a few lenses that are actually usable on this camera hand held. I know someone has posted a review with a EP1 fiited with a 14-35mm zoom on it . But the law of physics do not change because someone wants to make a statement
That's a ridiculous statement. Of course you can use them hand held. They may not be the best balance, or the optimum size, but they all work just fine. What law of physics is being violated? The fact that you want a perfectly balanced camera that meets with your aesthetic approval and is Perfect according to your functional requirements too?

Absurd.
That the camera is a little, pretty, plastic piece of cheesewiz in blue, red and black that looks like a girlie's plaything is irrelevant.
it would IF it was the only thing I mentioned . But of course , you forgot all the other toy atributes the art filters, the menu navigation , the video mode, etc...
If features of a camera aren't significant to you, ignore them.
If a camera doesn't do what you want, buy something else.

I didn't forget anything. I ignored your rants. There are certainly some things about the G1's design, and about the GH1 and E-P1 designs, that could be better.

This is true for every camera that I've owned these forty-plus past years and is why I'm always interested to work with new equipment that might do a better job for me. If I'd found the perfect camera already, I wouldn't frequent camera shops, or equipment discussion lists, at all. I'd be out doing photography and not thinking about the equipment, just using it.
In the hands of a photographer, it is a perfectly serious, capable camera: an excellent photographic tool.
well if it works for you , I am glad
Be glad.
  • Photographers make the most of what a given piece of equipment can do and workaround its deficiencies and awkwardnesses. They choose equipment that does the job they want as best can be expected, and disregard things they don't particularly want as long as those things don't get in the way of doing the work at hand. They communicate with the manufacturers of their equipment with ideas about how to improve the equipment from the perspective of their use and needs.
  • Equipment hobbyists complain that the equipment doesn't meet with their approval. They complain to other equipment hobbyists that the equipment is obviously flawed and why don't those darn manufacturers just listen to them and do things right?
Be what you want to be.
--
Godfrey
http://godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com
 
Its in my "Homepage" link Harold. I dont have work related photos in it, its more of personal photos. I prefer myfourthirds for the community and friends, its a great site for photography.

Regards

João
 
YES, Nice but in practicality , you have only a few lenses that are actually usable on this camera hand held. I know someone has posted a review with a EP1 fiited with a 14-35mm zoom on it . But the law of physics do not change because someone wants to make a statement
That's a ridiculous statement. Of course you can use them hand held. They may not be the best balance, or the optimum size, but they all work just fine. What law of physics is being violated? The fact that you want a perfectly balanced camera that meets with your aesthetic approval and is Perfect according to your functional requirements too?
ridiculous answer . I never talked about my aesthetic approval and you know it . I am just telling you that when you put a very long , very big , very heavy lens on a 400 grs body , you can't shoot for long and that for most users, the pic hand help would have motion blur even with the iS ON
If features of a camera aren't significant to you, ignore them.
If a camera doesn't do what you want, buy something else.
Yes , and that's why I am noy buying any m4/3 now, but thanks for the patronizing answer
I didn't forget anything. I ignored your rants. There are certainly some things about the G1's design, and about the GH1 and E-P1 designs, that could be better.
Ironic how with some , they have criticisms but other's criticizing become rants
  • Photographers make the most of what a given piece of equipment can do and workaround its deficiencies and awkwardnesses. They choose equipment that does the job they want as best can be expected, and disregard things they don't particularly want as long as those things don't get in the way of doing the work at hand
yes , agreed but my point is that those cameras can't do the job that I want right
if they can for another photographer, all the better.

I still can make my point even if for some unknown reasons, it seems to offend you

They communicate with the manufacturers of their equipment with ideas about how to improve the equipment from the perspective of their use and needs.
well that's what I am trying to do

--
http://www.harold-glit.com
http://www.modelmayhem.com/haroldglit
 
harold:
well that's what I am trying to do
If you want to communicate with a manufacturer, write the manufacturer or talk to the manufacturers technical representative.

Whining about what you want on an equipment forum isn't a particularly useful way to have a meaningful conversation with manufacturers.
--
Godfrey
http://godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com
 
harold:

... I am just telling you that when you put a very long , very big , very heavy lens on a 400 grs body , you can't shoot for long and that for most users, the pic hand help would have motion blur even with the iS ON
If a lens is too large or heavy to be used hand held, well, use a tripod.
If a lens is too long to hold steadily, use a tripod.

A heavy lens on a light body can also help stabilize the body. If you can use such a large lens on a larger SLR body and hold it steadily, it will do more to stabilize a lightweight body.

I think I'm done, harold. You can rant on as much as you like. ;-)
--
Godfrey
http://godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com
 

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