Ep1,G1, GH1, GF1... enough with the toys !! when do we get a real camera ?

In my opinion, a toy is defined by the capability of an instrument, not its finish, and to whom it is being marketed towards.
I read that twice and I still have no idea what you meant
If something is made to look like a toy, to me, does not follow that it is a toy....I consider something a toy if it does not deliver quality results, or is performs only for children's needs.
2/ Despite 3 cameras so far , there is NOT the beginning of a camera system. think about it . 4 cameras soon and only some zooms ( which now are further separated between photo zooms and video zooms) and NOT one REAL single focal length
They need to go for broad appeal at first....the market wants zooms.
again , no argument here . I am just saying that due to the success of this format , both companies need to think about NON pancakes single focal lengths
I would be VERY SHOCKED to discover that is true, as, I would expect the correction to be done at the software, not in the camera.

well I don't think it does. can someone here confirm one way or the other ?
Asking others out there for help in this one ????
a great single focal length always beats a great zoom when priced similarly. NOT to mention the size and weight argument which is even more IMPORTANT on a small camera body
I agree, it is just that it seems the quality gap has narrowed so much, relative to the large difference in market appeal, that the manufacturers have made their decision.
The E-P1 digital PEN, with the leatherette...that still looks like a toy to you ?
yes it does , even more so
I kept my E-P1 in its silver finish, yeah the chrome shiny part on top is a lttle toyish looking. Oh, and the WHITE E-P1 is TOTALLY TOY LOOKING, IMO
sorry you misunderstood. I have never talk about 2 hotshoes . one built in EVF and one hotshoe for optional OVF or flash
Oh, yes, you did write, built in EVF, apologies....though I look forward to the EVF attachment, I hope it comes with a shoe SO I CAN ATTACH A FLASH, YOU READING THIS OLY ! DON'T MAKE US CHOOSE BETWEEN EVF AND A FLASH !!!
don't know about that one and don't care to find out as the G1 and GH1 are NOT > REALLY 4/3 cameras as the viewfinder is 3;2 and I hate 3;2 ratio
I hate that 3:2 ratio also, 4/3 ratio was my primary inspiration in looking at Oly, and the lens quality/affordability, and wave buster. I also admire their culture of innovative risk-taking.
--
'Photos are what remain when the memories are forgotten' - Angular Mo.
 
Harold, don't think I am not thinking of the 3, it is not keeping me up at night and that is good, and I can wait a bit for the price to drop, but it sure is interesting. I am hoping the GX300, if it comes will have the advantages of the GR3.

I think once you use the Ricoh UI you do get spoiled. I did anyway.
Harold, many of the E-P1 users, and I will speak for myself in case I become one, want a camera with better IQ than the small P&S cameras we have decided to use (some of us) instead of a DSLR.
Me too and there are lots of us around here feeling exactly the same need

For me a DSLR will never be considered, it will never make it into the car on my daily rounds (when I work having a camera with me is a nice thing, but it has to be handy and inconspicuous. My Ricoh CX1 travels with me, it is small and does a good job but the heavy NR does cause some IQ issues, though it is very nice. I am too lazy and need to PP more. The E-P1 is even larger than I want, give me something the size of a GR or GX for me to be happy, and maybe one day that will happen too.

a 4/3 camera with interchangeable lenses can't really get much smaller than the Ep1

as I said to you before , I think you should get a GR or GX . the quality is MUCH higher than the CX1 and you still have that great Ricoh user interface that all serious photogs love and make Ricoh such a amazing company
My Fuji F30 and the CX1 are more toys than the E-P1, but to your point I am disappointed that there are no lenses for the camera that excite me. I would like the following primes and I would be happy: 12, 42
could not agree more. these are the MOST neeeded single focal lenghts ( and this is true of regular 4/3 Too)
Thanks for your thoughts, they are always appreciated.
same here. I always enjoy your posts
Harold
--
http://www.harold-glit.com
http://www.modelmayhem.com/haroldglit
 
With a Panasonic lens on an Oly body, distortion will be corrected In the JPEGs but CA won't. However the CA won't really be any worse than using any other similar lens.

As for what happens to the raw, that depends on your converter of choice.
--
Andy Westlake
dpreview.com/lensreviews
 
It's been a couple of weeks since your last big thread that you want a couple of primes, either for m4:3s or normal 4:3s.
Only a few weeks ?? :)))

No argument here. I got caught red-handed. That being said , when I hear some stuff about voigtlander and zeiss M lenses sales over the last 6 month, I am sure I am hardly the only one
So many more people will buy zooms that primes are a low priority for the manufacturers, after all they are in business to make money, not keep Harold happy
Of course , I know that . I am saying that they are missing an additional market. As I wrote in my post - for the ones who care to read it- it makes perfect sense to bring the toyish ep1 camera first and the zoom. I am just concerned about where they go from here
Very curious attitude to coloured cameras. Does it matter if a camera is black red or blue? Cameras seem to be the only tool I know that have to be black to be considered seriously. I've got all sorts of other tools that don't come in black but work perfectly well.
YES , it matters in some cases . for street photography for instance. If you take pics of your kids or pets, I agree it does not matter

OK you don't want some of the features like scene modes, but each of the cameras offers full manual control which is all you need to use them the same as any other camera.

yes , but in some cases it makes the camera very non intuitive. the ep1 is a step back to prior e cameras in this regard . I think any Ricoh GR/GX user will get my point if nobody else did.

why would getting a digital camera would have to mean getting a camera that does not work like a camera should ???
F1 cars are some of the most focussed "tools" that I know of, and none of them come in black - do you think the drivers ought to complain that they could go faster if they were painted black ?
Nick , your other comments were valid . this one is kind of silly . F1 cars is a sport , where the idea is TO BE SEEN . really irrelevant

Harold
http://www.harold-glit.com
http://www.modelmayhem.com/haroldglit
 
Hello everyone,
Despite 3 cameras so far , there is NOT the beginning of a camera system. think about it . 4 cameras soon and only some zooms ( which now are further separated between photo zooms and video zooms) and NOT one REAL single focal length

it looks they have decided that the market wants Pancakes and pancakes we would get for every single focal length
I have been in Photography for over 25 years and I can't remember ONE SINGLE time when a format would count 4 camera bodies without a single NOn pancake focal lens or without any focal length in the 24 to 28mm range
Harold66;

Total agreement here. If the following lenses were available in m4/3s format; a.) 24mm. b.) 50mm. & c.) 90mm. I would have bought these in a "heartbeat".

However, I must be content with a.) 17mm pancake. b.) MMF-1 adapter & 25mm pancake. c.) MMF-1 adapter & 50 macro.

And, on top of that, I've only got one MMF-1 adapter, & there's not another to be found in the country. Plus, each adapter is going for around $200.

Harold66, do you think that Olympus will ever make these primes?
 
Harold66;

Total agreement here. If the following lenses were available in m4/3s format; a.) 24mm. b.) 50mm. & c.) 90mm. I would have bought these in a "heartbeat".

However, I must be content with a.) 17mm pancake. b.) MMF-1 adapter & 25mm pancake. c.) MMF-1 adapter & 50 macro.

And, on top of that, I've only got one MMF-1 adapter, & there's not another to be found in the country. Plus, each adapter is going for around $200.

Harold66, do you think that Olympus will ever make these primes?
well , I don't know . let's hope so. My guess is that they will make the 12mm at somepoint. let's hope it's not a crippled pancake one
Harold

--
http://www.harold-glit.com
http://www.modelmayhem.com/haroldglit
 
Hey, Harold, you got it right

I can add from myself that E-P1 pretend to be pocket size camera, so it has to be good for street photography and so on. I can't imagine I'm taking shots outdoors without forced flash ON.

Secondly, couple years ago even cheapest P&S had tiny little pip hole VF. Now they do not just to shave 10-15 bucks from price tag. I could not expect that cheap from camera with large sensor and interchangeable lens.

Some call this camera 'sexy' - I'm a straight and married man! I can't take this camera into the bed!
 
2/ Despite 3 cameras so far , there is NOT the beginning of a camera system. think about it . 4 cameras soon and only some zooms ( which now are further separated between photo zooms and video zooms) and NOT one REAL single focal length

I have been in Photography for over 25 years and I can't remember ONE SINGLE time when a format would count 4 camera bodies without a single NOn pancake focal lens or without any focal length in the 24 to 28mm range

It seems like this new format is toy driven by people who want their camera to look and be the size of an i-pod or an i-phone
Firstly, I wholeheartedly agree that with m4/3 there should be a more integrated approach by Panasonic and Olympus over things like IS, AF, lens correction, wireless TTL flash, teleconverter use etc. They do themselves no favours with with inconsistencies and incompatibilities being created now. It will get worse in the long run and the time to sort it out is now, and not later on when it may become a much bigger problem.

Whilst I appreciate your frustration, I think you are also fundamentally misunderstanding what m4/3 is about. Essentially, I think m4/3 is a platform designed to support forthcoming technology that will allow much better integrated video and stills, and allow EVFs to start to compete with reflex viewfinders in terms of functionality and usability. However, the technology isn't really there yet and so in the mean time Panasonic and Olympus are using m4/3 to provide some interesting consumer cameras for which there is a bit of an empty niche, whilst their R&D aims to perfect the cameras that the m4/3 platform was really designed for.

Most other camera systems are built around a type of camera whose general performance, capabilities and possibilities are well known. Except for the sensor, LCD etc, a modern DSLR essentially performs like a film SLR of 10-15 years ago. The drive rate (fps), AF, viewfinder and general size/handling are very similar. So you can get a Canon EOS L lens designed well over 10 years ago, and it still performs similarly well with the newest DSLRs.

However, m4/3 is unlike any other camera system I have known before. No one, not even the manufacturers themselves, really have much idea of what a m4/3 camera will either look like, or perform like in only 5 years time. It is a mount and system designed to support a camera that doesn't really exist, yet. So it would be pointless to launch a whole range of lenses and then find out that in a few years time they weren't really suited to the cameras that then emerge, and as a consequence they would have to completely re-design them all. Likewise, it would be pointless introducing a more advanced camera at this point, only for it to be completely outclassed by an entry level m4/3 camera in only 2 years time. So overall, I don't expect either Panasonic or Olympus to launch a proper system for m4/3 until they have a much better idea of the capabilities and performance possible with this type of camera. How could you build a Pro type lens with the best possible AF when you have no idea of the AF performance of a m4/3 camera in only 2 years time

Also, you say you are not interested in video. However, the m4/3 announcement and the White Paper on the Micro Four Thirds Org. website clearly says that a major reason behind the development of m4/3 was for integrated video and stills.
 
The EP-1 seems to be more a fashion statement than a toy. Both the EP-1, G-1 and GH-1 are made more for upgrading from P&S cameras. I am still waiting for a rugged,weather-sealed m-4/3 camera with pro-level fast glass (both zooms and primes). Maybe the rumored next Olympus m-4/3 camera will be the one for me.

Dave
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So many more people will buy zooms that primes are a low priority for the manufacturers, after all they are in business to make money, not keep Harold happy
:-)

I want Oly to keep "Harold happy". He is an expert professional, and, if it is good enough for the "Harolds" (sorry, I know there can only be one), then, I know it will be so good for me that I will get years of learning from the tool.

--
'Photos are what remain when the memories are forgotten' - Angular Mo.
 
I have to agree w/ Nick. To state a camera (or any other tool) is a toy because it is not black, just calls into question the credibility of all your other statements even though they are legitimate. Very few professional quality tools in any field are all black, and that certainly doesn't make them a toy.

As to features you don't want/like, don't use them. The relevant point, in my opinion, is does it have features you need for the types of photos you shoot. Use those and ignore the rest. Most of the ones you don't like are just firmware options and add very little to the cost of development and certainly don't interfere w/ the features you do like, so I don't see the problem.

Bottom line is w/ electronics and software making it so easy to provide "features" (wanted or otherwise) engineers tend load models up lots of useless features along with some that are incredibly useful.

Welcome to the digital age. Might as well get used to it, because its not going away.

Fred
 
A very well written thought out thread. Well done.

Don
 
Try Pixmania Harold. The G1 black with zoom is selling for a really low price, 599€.

Regards

João
 
Whilst I appreciate your frustration, I think you are also fundamentally misunderstanding what m4/3 is about. Essentially, I think m4/3 is a platform designed to support forthcoming technology that will allow much better integrated video and stills, and allow EVFs to start to compete with reflex viewfinders in terms of functionality and usability.
I don't misunderstand as much as I regret it. I think generally speaking you are right.

I guess my best -but tiny hope- is that a "thinking out of the box" manufacturer -like ricoh -would come join the m4/3 crowd for a more refreshing look

There are lots of us who are waiting for what Michael Johnston at TOP call a DMD camera ( stands for decisive moment something, I think)
somewhere of a cross between a Ricoh GX and a sigma DP with a m4/3 sensor size
Harold
 
The EP-1 seems to be more a fashion statement than a toy. Both the EP-1, G-1 and GH-1 are made more for upgrading from P&S cameras. I am still waiting for a rugged,weather-sealed m-4/3 camera with pro-level fast glass (both zooms and primes). Maybe the rumored next Olympus m-4/3 camera will be the one for me.
I am 48 years old, my two children are 9 and 11, I cannot afford to wait, in a few years they will leave this cute era, and become brooding teenagers.

As I get older there are some things in my life for which I have less patience.

Living in the New York City area, even seasonal considerations are critical, for me, this past winter seem, to be, to be especially long, cold, and dark. The timing of the E-P1 release, was, for me, perfect.

Were I to live in the tropics, then, perhaps I would feel differenty.

Anyone reading this from Singapore?
--
'Photos are what remain when the memories are forgotten' - Angular Mo.
 

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