Profile Prism Beta is outstanding!

I still cannot create any good profile by using Profile Prism.
Maybe it's possible with other tools.
Since many others have created excellent profiles with Profile Prism using the same printer and scanner that you are using, and even the same paper, I need to have some more specific questions answered by you to be able to help. Rather than double post, please see:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1003&message=3253351

--
Mike
http://www.ddisoftware.com
 
My more specific question was already asked - diagrams I get in PP are more narrow than shown in help file. May it affect the resulting profile? If yes, then what scanner settings I have to play with in order to make diagrams wider?

If the width of diagram doesn't affect profile then I have no idea what to ask. As I already said I followed all steps described in help. Today I bought Spyder Colorimeter and calibrated my monitor although I did not think that it can affect anyhow printer profile. After that I repeted everything and got the same result with prints - magenta cast in shadows.

I used to work in past as professional photographer, I used to develop everything (films, paper) myself and I know a lot in traditional photography. I'm new to digital, but many areas either the same or similar.

Do not accept my words as offence, please. Maybe some people who successfully created profiles are not as picky as I am. At least one person on this forum reported great results from Profile Prism v2.61. Then he said that there is a new version (beta 2.7) and after he installed it all his problems gone. If result was great with 2.61, which problem he is talking about?

So far I'm getting brighter prints with more color distortions when I'm using PP profile comparing to native Epson 1280 profile.

Could anybody create printer profile with no color distortion visible by regular eye?
Thank you
Vlad
I still cannot create any good profile by using Profile Prism.
Maybe it's possible with other tools.
Since many others have created excellent profiles with Profile
Prism using the same printer and scanner that you are using, and
even the same paper, I need to have some more specific questions
answered by you to be able to help. Rather than double post,
please see:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1003&message=3253351

--
Mike
http://www.ddisoftware.com
--
http://www.vchapran.com
 
If I understand your question correctly, your scanned image is "narrower than shown in help". Two points 1. Be sure that the printed output of the printer target is a 5x7 print. 2. Be sure that you scan at 300 dpi and 100% on size. Some scanners let you reduce the image size during scan and you do not want that. If your printed output is 5x7 it will be the same size as the supplied profile target and if you maintain 300dpi and 100% size, you should have what you need for the profile. Whether this solves your problem is another question.
  • magenta cast in shadows.
I used to work in past as professional photographer, I used to
develop everything (films, paper) myself and I know a lot in
traditional photography. I'm new to digital, but many areas either
the same or similar.
Do not accept my words as offence, please. Maybe some people who
successfully created profiles are not as picky as I am. At least
one person on this forum reported great results from Profile Prism
v2.61. Then he said that there is a new version (beta 2.7) and
after he installed it all his problems gone. If result was great
with 2.61, which problem he is talking about?
So far I'm getting brighter prints with more color distortions when
I'm using PP profile comparing to native Epson 1280 profile.
Could anybody create printer profile with no color distortion
visible by regular eye?
Thank you
Vlad
I still cannot create any good profile by using Profile Prism.
Maybe it's possible with other tools.
Since many others have created excellent profiles with Profile
Prism using the same printer and scanner that you are using, and
even the same paper, I need to have some more specific questions
answered by you to be able to help. Rather than double post,
please see:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1003&message=3253351

--
Mike
http://www.ddisoftware.com
--
http://www.vchapran.com
 
Not image itself. The histogram I see in PP for my scanned image is narrower than "Good Histogram" shown in help.

My printed target size is very close to the size of original target. Help doesn't require sizes for both targets be absolutely the same, so I decided that the difference about 1/8-1/4" is acceptable. Maybe this is my mistake and I have to print exactly the same size?
Thank you
Vlad
  • magenta cast in shadows.
I used to work in past as professional photographer, I used to
develop everything (films, paper) myself and I know a lot in
traditional photography. I'm new to digital, but many areas either
the same or similar.
Do not accept my words as offence, please. Maybe some people who
successfully created profiles are not as picky as I am. At least
one person on this forum reported great results from Profile Prism
v2.61. Then he said that there is a new version (beta 2.7) and
after he installed it all his problems gone. If result was great
with 2.61, which problem he is talking about?
So far I'm getting brighter prints with more color distortions when
I'm using PP profile comparing to native Epson 1280 profile.
Could anybody create printer profile with no color distortion
visible by regular eye?
Thank you
Vlad
I still cannot create any good profile by using Profile Prism.
Maybe it's possible with other tools.
Since many others have created excellent profiles with Profile
Prism using the same printer and scanner that you are using, and
even the same paper, I need to have some more specific questions
answered by you to be able to help. Rather than double post,
please see:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1003&message=3253351

--
Mike
http://www.ddisoftware.com
--
http://www.vchapran.com
--
http://www.vchapran.com
 
Vlad,

I always print on an A4 piece of paper.I used to print the image at the bottom and attach the reference card just above it.I never got a good profile.I have upgraded to PP2.7,changed my scanner as recommended and still print on an A4 sheet but now I cut the print out and lay both aligned on the glass and covered with black card.The results are far better.I think one of the problems was attaching the card to the printed A4 which doubled the thickness therefoer causing errors.
Steve
 
I always print on an A4 piece of paper.I used to print the image at
the bottom and attach the reference card just above it.I never got
a good profile.I have upgraded to PP2.7,changed my scanner as
recommended and still print on an A4 sheet but now I cut the print
out and lay both aligned on the glass and covered with black
card.The results are far better.I think one of the problems was
attaching the card to the printed A4 which doubled the thickness
therefoer causing errors.
That's certainly something that can cause trouble in some cases. First, the extra white border around the targets can cause problems with internal reflections in the scanner bed, which is why the help recommends trimming the target like the included PP target. Second, if you don't put something that is matte black behind the targets, you can have problems with bleed-through where light goes through the color pathes and bounces off the white backing behind the paper, and back through the color patches. The effect of these two problems varies greatly among scanners, type of paper used, and other factors.

At this point, I would suggest two things to Vlad:

(1) First, if you haven't already tried the profiles on the Profile Prism FTP site, go there and download the profiles for the 870 and 1270 or even the 1280 and see how they work. I believe there are some there for the paper you are using. I believe you will find that the profiles on the site do not have the shadow problems that you have been having, but I'd be curious as to what you find. I'd also encourage you to download some of the images in the "test-images" folder there to see how they print. Those images are in known color spaces so you don't have to deal with issues like whether or not you are looking at an anomalous image or whether your camera profile could be affecting things and you've been trying to "fix" your printer profile when it's the camera profile that is the problem.

(2) Next, whatever you find from (1) above, I would go back and go through the help one last time and regenerate your target(s) from scratch and make sure you follow all the help tips along the way. Since more than a few others are using equipment identical to yours (both scanner and printer) and don't have the problems you are having, I have to assume that something in your workflow is just not right.

This is not intended to belittle or insult you; it's just that there are a lot of factors that affect color management. It could be anything from a bad input (camera) profile causing your problem to using the wrong target or driver settings when you scanned. Sometimes you end up with a pile of targets and they get mixed up and you think you scanned the "color controls" version when it was actually the "sRGB" or "no color adjustment" version.

Also, you even need to check what profile is being used for the input image on the camera side of the equation. Your printer is the "to" side of the equation but the image itself also has to have a profile associated with it also, so the problem could be there as well. There are still a lot of unanswered questions like what profile are you using for your images , what camera did they come from, what software are you using to print and what are the color management settings in that software, etc.

I'd say 80% to 90% of the time, generating accurate profiles is pretty straightforward (given a good scanner at least). The problem is, when you run into a snag and are in that 10-20%, it can sometimes be difficult to find the problem because there are so many factors that affect profiling. I'll continue to help you as long as you are willing.

--
Mike
http://www.ddisoftware.com
 
Thank you, Mike.

I downloaded profiles from FTP, I used eppgpp.icc profile developed by Dale Kaechler with Epson Premium Glossy paper. I set all settings as he recommends. Printed image looks exactly as mine - the same magenta cast in shadows.

Native Epson profile doesn't produce this kind of distortion. It gives correct colors everywhere, they are not as vivid as from my or developed by Dale Kaechler profiles, but they more correct. Is it possible to have correct colors with native printer driver if my camera produces something wrong? Camera I use is Fuji S2 pro.

I would ask somebody who interested in resolving this kind of problem to download an original image I got from my camera (zipped) and to print it in order to see if it's possible to get correct colors evrywhere (in heighlights and shadows) with this file. File size is about 4 MB. I did not do any changes to this file. The link for download:
http://www.vchapran.com/mystuff/DSCF0365.zip

Thank you
Vlad
I always print on an A4 piece of paper.I used to print the image at
the bottom and attach the reference card just above it.I never got
a good profile.I have upgraded to PP2.7,changed my scanner as
recommended and still print on an A4 sheet but now I cut the print
out and lay both aligned on the glass and covered with black
card.The results are far better.I think one of the problems was
attaching the card to the printed A4 which doubled the thickness
therefoer causing errors.
That's certainly something that can cause trouble in some cases.
First, the extra white border around the targets can cause problems
with internal reflections in the scanner bed, which is why the help
recommends trimming the target like the included PP target.
Second, if you don't put something that is matte black behind the
targets, you can have problems with bleed-through where light goes
through the color pathes and bounces off the white backing behind
the paper, and back through the color patches. The effect of these
two problems varies greatly among scanners, type of paper used, and
other factors.

At this point, I would suggest two things to Vlad:

(1) First, if you haven't already tried the profiles on the Profile
Prism FTP site, go there and download the profiles for the 870 and
1270 or even the 1280 and see how they work. I believe there are
some there for the paper you are using. I believe you will find
that the profiles on the site do not have the shadow problems that
you have been having, but I'd be curious as to what you find. I'd
also encourage you to download some of the images in the
"test-images" folder there to see how they print. Those images are
in known color spaces so you don't have to deal with issues like
whether or not you are looking at an anomalous image or whether
your camera profile could be affecting things and you've been
trying to "fix" your printer profile when it's the camera profile
that is the problem.

(2) Next, whatever you find from (1) above, I would go back and go
through the help one last time and regenerate your target(s) from
scratch and make sure you follow all the help tips along the way.
Since more than a few others are using equipment identical to yours
(both scanner and printer) and don't have the problems you are
having, I have to assume that something in your workflow is just
not right.

This is not intended to belittle or insult you; it's just that
there are a lot of factors that affect color management. It could
be anything from a bad input (camera) profile causing your problem
to using the wrong target or driver settings when you scanned.
Sometimes you end up with a pile of targets and they get mixed up
and you think you scanned the "color controls" version when it was
actually the "sRGB" or "no color adjustment" version.

Also, you even need to check what profile is being used for the
input image on the camera side of the equation. Your printer is
the "to" side of the equation but the image itself also has to have
a profile associated with it also, so the problem could be there as
well. There are still a lot of unanswered questions like what
profile are you using for your images , what camera did they come
from, what software are you using to print and what are the color
management settings in that software, etc.

I'd say 80% to 90% of the time, generating accurate profiles is
pretty straightforward (given a good scanner at least). The
problem is, when you run into a snag and are in that 10-20%, it can
sometimes be difficult to find the problem because there are so
many factors that affect profiling. I'll continue to help you as
long as you are willing.

--
Mike
http://www.ddisoftware.com
--
http://www.vchapran.com
 
I decided to respond in a different branch of this thread so we don't run off the edge...
Thank you, Mike.

I downloaded profiles from FTP, I used eppgpp.icc profile developed by > Dale Kaechler with Epson Premium Glossy paper. I set all settings as he > recommends. Printed image looks exactly as mine - the same magenta > cast in shadows.
[snip]
I would ask somebody who interested in resolving this kind of problem to > download an original image I got from my camera (zipped) and to print it > in order to see if it's possible to get correct colors evrywhere (in > heighlights and shadows) with this file. File size is about 4 MB. I did not > do any changes to this file. The link for download:
http://www.vchapran.com/mystuff/DSCF0365.zip
OK. I did just that. I downloaded your image and printed it on Epson Premium Glossy Photo Paper from a 1270 running Epson inks. I used the same profile that you did above (Dale's eppgpp profile). I get none of the color distortions that you get. Here is a scan of what I get (right) next to what you get (left).



Obviously, there is a huge difference even though we are using the same profile on (basically) the same printer, with the same paper. My scan above was produced with an Epson 2450 and profiled to sRGB space for web display using a custom scanner profile.

Now, this exercise convinces me that there is simply something wrong in your workflow. It almost looks like you are double profiling somewhere. I hate to keep asking the same questions over and over, but until I get all the answers to the questions I've been asking you, I don't know how to help you. So... what software are you using to print and what are the exact color management settings that you are using? Also, how long after printing are you waiting before you scan the printer target? How long do you wait before evaluating your profiled prints? I noticed that the above print came out of the printer with very dark/blotchy shadows but they cleared up completely in less than 30 minutes. The difference between the print when it first comes out of the printer and 30 minutes later is dramatic!

Trying to help...

--
Mike
http://www.ddisoftware.com
 
Thank you, Mike
My answers:
So... what software
are you using to print and what are the exact color management
settings that you are using?
I'm using QImage Pro 2.0. I have Global Filter Off, Color management was set always to the profile I'm testing (just created). I set it by checking Printer(Output) checkbox on Color Management Window and selecting tested profile from C:\WINDOWS\system32\spool\drivers\color\ directory

In Printer setup I have Color Controls with Gamma 1.8, Mode - Automatic, all color corrections set to 0 (sliders), Premium Glossy Photo Paper for Media Type, Print Quality 1440, Epson Natural Color check box is unchecked as well as High Speed check box.
Also, how long after printing are you
waiting before you scan the printer target?
All targets except very first ones were drying no less than one hour, the last one I printed yesterday and started to use today
How long do you wait
before evaluating your profiled prints?
Actually I'd like to see the result right now, but I do not throw away my prints and the old ones I analize after several hours too. Based on my old experience with traditional photography I never evaluate my prints with artificial light - only day light is used.
I noticed that the above
print came out of the printer with very dark/blotchy shadows but
they cleared up completely in less than 30 minutes. The difference
between the print when it first comes out of the printer and 30
minutes later is dramatic!
I'm using native Epson cartridges bought from B&H and did not notice the difference between fresh printed image and after several hours.
It almost looks like you are double
profiling somewhere.
If so, where do I need to check if it's double profiled?

Thanks again for help, Mike.
Vlad
Thank you, Mike.

I downloaded profiles from FTP, I used eppgpp.icc profile developed by > Dale Kaechler with Epson Premium Glossy paper. I set all settings as he > recommends. Printed image looks exactly as mine - the same magenta > cast in shadows.
[snip]
I would ask somebody who interested in resolving this kind of problem to > download an original image I got from my camera (zipped) and to print it > in order to see if it's possible to get correct colors evrywhere (in > heighlights and shadows) with this file. File size is about 4 MB. I did not > do any changes to this file. The link for download:
http://www.vchapran.com/mystuff/DSCF0365.zip
OK. I did just that. I downloaded your image and printed it on
Epson Premium Glossy Photo Paper from a 1270 running Epson inks. I
used the same profile that you did above (Dale's eppgpp profile).
I get none of the color distortions that you get. Here is a scan
of what I get (right) next to what you get (left).



Obviously, there is a huge difference even though we are using the
same profile on (basically) the same printer, with the same paper.
My scan above was produced with an Epson 2450 and profiled to sRGB
space for web display using a custom scanner profile.

Now, this exercise convinces me that there is simply something
wrong in your workflow. It almost looks like you are double
profiling somewhere. I hate to keep asking the same questions over
and over, but until I get all the answers to the questions I've
been asking you, I don't know how to help you. So... what software
are you using to print and what are the exact color management
settings that you are using? Also, how long after printing are you
waiting before you scan the printer target? How long do you wait
before evaluating your profiled prints? I noticed that the above
print came out of the printer with very dark/blotchy shadows but
they cleared up completely in less than 30 minutes. The difference
between the print when it first comes out of the printer and 30
minutes later is dramatic!

Trying to help...

--
Mike
http://www.ddisoftware.com
--
http://www.vchapran.com
 
Well, it looks like our workflow is identical: I use Qimage Pro and used the exact same steps you did. At this point, let's try to take it one step at a time since I think we're close.

Let's use Dale's eppgpp profile as the example since that puts us on the same page. In Qimage Pro's main window, your "Printer ICC" on the bottom right should say "Epson Premium Glossy Photo Paper v2.6". Due to the long name, you may or may not see the whole name. Can you confirm that is what is showing there?

Next, add that image (DSCF0365.JPG) to the queue. Look at the end of the line in the queue. Does it say "sRGB.icm" at the end of the text line in the queue? If not, what does it say?

--
Mike
http://www.ddisoftware.com
 
Mike,
Let's use Dale's eppgpp profile as the example since that puts us
on the same page. In Qimage Pro's main window, your "Printer ICC"
on the bottom right should say "Epson Premium Glossy Photo Paper
v2.6". Due to the long name, you may or may not see the whole
name. Can you confirm that is what is showing there?
Yes, I have it
Next, add that image (DSCF0365.JPG) to the queue. Look at the end
of the line in the queue. Does it say "sRGB.icm" at the end of the
text line in the queue? If not, what does it say?
No, I see the name of my first profiles there - PremiumGlossyEpson2.icc

And i have it with all images I'm adding to the Queue regardless whether I used that file after I started to play with PP. I have no idea when and how I assigned that profile to all images I'm opening in QImage Pro.

How can I get rid of it? As I understand, this is double profiling.
Thank you again
Vlad
Well, it looks like our workflow is identical: I use Qimage Pro and
used the exact same steps you did. At this point, let's try to
take it one step at a time since I think we're close.

Let's use Dale's eppgpp profile as the example since that puts us
on the same page. In Qimage Pro's main window, your "Printer ICC"
on the bottom right should say "Epson Premium Glossy Photo Paper
v2.6". Due to the long name, you may or may not see the whole
name. Can you confirm that is what is showing there?

Next, add that image (DSCF0365.JPG) to the queue. Look at the end
of the line in the queue. Does it say "sRGB.icm" at the end of the
text line in the queue? If not, what does it say?

--
Mike
http://www.ddisoftware.com
--
http://www.vchapran.com
 
No, I see the name of my first profiles there -
PremiumGlossyEpson2.icc
And i have it with all images I'm adding to the Queue regardless
whether I used that file after I started to play with PP. I have no
idea when and how I assigned that profile to all images I'm opening
in QImage Pro.
Ahh. The sweet smell of success! I think we found the problem! What happened is that you somehow activated another printer profile in your input (image) color table. Qimage Pro thinks that your images are in "PremiumGlossyEpson2" color space and QP will therefore be converting from one paper color space to another, causing VERY strange results! In other words, your table that tells QP what profile(s) to use for your images is corrupted.

Here's what I recommend. Go to your \program files\qimage folder and DELETE the file named "icm.ini". If you don't see it, you'll need to configure the view on your Windows Explorer so it doesn't hide what it calls "system" files. You can make a copy of that file to another folder first if you like. When you delete that file, you reset all of Qimage Pro's color management settings. Once you've done that (do it with Qimage Pro closed), open Qimage Pro back up. You'll need to click "Printer ICC" again and re-identify your profile that you created (or Dale's, whichever you want to try). After doing that, you should see your printer profile under "Priinter ICC" and when you add that image back to the queue, it should now say "sRGB.icm" at the end of the line in the queue. If it does, you're ready to print. Try printing with those settings and see what you get.

--
Mike
http://www.ddisoftware.com
 
Next, add that image (DSCF0365.JPG) to the queue. Look at the end
of the line in the queue. Does it say "sRGB.icm" at the end of the
text line in the queue? If not, what does it say?
No, I see the name of my first profiles there -
PremiumGlossyEpson2.icc
And i have it with all images I'm adding to the Queue regardless
whether I used that file after I started to play with PP. I have no
idea when and how I assigned that profile to all images I'm opening
in QImage Pro.

How can I get rid of it? As I understand, this is double profiling.
Thank you again
Vlad
Vlad - Are you trying to print unedited images straight out of the camera? If so, the problem lies in your QImage setup. If you have edited in Photoshop, have you somehow resaved and embedded the printer profile with the image? I suspect the former is the problem.

Looks like your getting to the root of the problem though.

Good luck.

RW
 
Vlad - Are you trying to print unedited images straight out of the
camera? If so, the problem lies in your QImage setup. If you have
edited in Photoshop, have you somehow resaved and embedded the
printer profile with the image? I suspect the former is the problem.

Looks like your getting to the root of the problem though.
Actually, I hadn't thought of that. I assumed Vlad was printing the same image that he put up on his server (DSCF0365.JPG). That is an unmodified (as far as I can tell) original from the Fuji S2 and it has no embedded profile. If he's printing that image in Qimage Pro and getting that premium glossy profile in the queue, it means his input color management table is fouled up and the fix I suggested should take care of that. If Vlad is using a modified version of that image that he tweaked in PhotoShop, then what you say above is also possible: that the wrong ICC profile got embedded in the image. I think it's more likely that his input table just got messed up in QP and hope that he's already fixed it and will report back.

--
Mike
http://www.ddisoftware.com
 
Mike,
I have no words to thank you for your help in my fighting with Profile prism

Now I have already 2 profiles - for Epson Premium Glossy and JetPrint Premium Glossy papers. Although I did not tune them enough (6-7 patches clipped on Prism Target and 11-13 on Printed Target), my prints are just great. The problems I had were Scanner first, and after I replaced my Cannons (1220 and 1240) with Epson 1650 I had double profiling.
Since you told me about that everything changed dramatically.

I loved your QImage, now there is one more product developed by you I love - Great Profile Prism.
Vlad
Vlad - Are you trying to print unedited images straight out of the
camera? If so, the problem lies in your QImage setup. If you have
edited in Photoshop, have you somehow resaved and embedded the
printer profile with the image? I suspect the former is the problem.

Looks like your getting to the root of the problem though.
Actually, I hadn't thought of that. I assumed Vlad was printing
the same image that he put up on his server (DSCF0365.JPG). That
is an unmodified (as far as I can tell) original from the Fuji S2
and it has no embedded profile. If he's printing that image in
Qimage Pro and getting that premium glossy profile in the queue, it
means his input color management table is fouled up and the fix I
suggested should take care of that. If Vlad is using a modified
version of that image that he tweaked in PhotoShop, then what you
say above is also possible: that the wrong ICC profile got embedded
in the image. I think it's more likely that his input table just
got messed up in QP and hope that he's already fixed it and will
report back.

--
Mike
http://www.ddisoftware.com
--
http://www.vchapran.com
 
Vlad - Are you trying to print unedited images straight out of the
camera? If so, the problem lies in your QImage setup. If you have
edited in Photoshop, have you somehow resaved and embedded the
printer profile with the image? I suspect the former is the problem.

Looks like your getting to the root of the problem though.
Actually, I hadn't thought of that. I assumed Vlad was printing
the same image that he put up on his server (DSCF0365.JPG). That
is an unmodified (as far as I can tell) original from the Fuji S2
and it has no embedded profile. If he's printing that image in
Qimage Pro and getting that premium glossy profile in the queue, it
means his input color management table is fouled up and the fix I
suggested should take care of that. If Vlad is using a modified
version of that image that he tweaked in PhotoShop, then what you
say above is also possible: that the wrong ICC profile got embedded
in the image. I think it's more likely that his input table just
got messed up in QP and hope that he's already fixed it and will
report back.

--
Mike
http://www.ddisoftware.com
--
http://www.vchapran.com
Vlad, I've been following this thread and I'm glad everything turned out for the best for you. I had said a prayer to St. Jude for you and apparently it worked with the help of Mike Chaney.
Mike, I give you a lot of credit.
Andrew
 
Sounds great! Glad we could figure out the problem. When you consider the entire path of profiling from start (printing the test target) through the profiling, and including the use of the profile after it is created, there are a lot of little things that can go wrong. Sometimes it just takes some time to figure out where the problem is, but I'm glad we stuck with it and worked it out together.

Mike
Mike,
I have no words to thank you for your help in my fighting with
Profile prism
Now I have already 2 profiles - for Epson Premium Glossy and
JetPrint Premium Glossy papers. Although I did not tune them enough
(6-7 patches clipped on Prism Target and 11-13 on Printed Target),
my prints are just great. The problems I had were Scanner first,
and after I replaced my Cannons (1220 and 1240) with Epson 1650 I
had double profiling.
Since you told me about that everything changed dramatically.
I loved your QImage, now there is one more product developed by you
I love - Great Profile Prism.
Vlad
--
Mike
http://www.ddisoftware.com
 

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