Getting Noticeable Banding on S900 with OD Paper

richard ettenhuber · Aug 20, 2002

Based upon the many recommendations in this forum, I purchased OD Premium High Gloss paper for my "new" Canon S900 to be used for my "new" Sony 707 photos. If you haven't guessed I'm "new" when it comes to digital photography! I have tried several different combinations of paper settings in Print Setup including Photo Paper Pro, Photo Paper Plus Glossy, Matte Photo Paper and Glossy Photo Paper but always seem to get some noticeable banding with OD paper. All of these settings default the Print Quality to "High", and the Color Adjustment mode is set to Auto.

The original photo was taken at the highest resolution of the F707---5 megapixels. I am trying to print to the full 8.5 x 11 paper size so there is some scaling going on, I assume. But the kicker is I do not see the banding when the Plain Paper setting is used with normal "plain paper" although the image quality is inferior as you would expect.

Any help would be appreciated.

Rick

Art Rosch · Aug 20, 2002

Richard Ettenhuber said:
Based upon the many recommendations in this forum, I purchased OD
Premium High Gloss paper for my "new" Canon S900 to be used for my
"new" Sony 707 photos. If you haven't guessed I'm "new" when it
comes to digital photography! I have tried several different
combinations of paper settings in Print Setup including Photo Paper
Pro, Photo Paper Plus Glossy, Matte Photo Paper and Glossy Photo
Paper but always seem to get some noticeable banding with OD paper.
All of these settings default the Print Quality to "High", and the
Color Adjustment mode is set to Auto.

The original photo was taken at the highest resolution of the
F707---5 megapixels. I am trying to print to the full 8.5 x 11
paper size so there is some scaling going on, I assume. But the
kicker is I do not see the banding when the Plain Paper setting is
used with normal "plain paper" although the image quality is
inferior as you would expect.

Any help would be appreciated.

Rick

Hmmm, there are a lot of variables, here, Rick. I use profiles
for my printing, so I'm spared the decision of 'settings'. But
I use a lot of OD Glossy, and I set it at Photo Paper Plus Glossy,
and I turn off the Color Adjustment, that is, "none". And I let
the profile do its work. You might try just assigning it Adobe
RGB if you're using Pshop and print as I've suggested. I haven't
a clue if that will work. It's a pretty smart printer, you might also
try ticking the ICM box in Color Adjustment. You can, and probably
will, go nuts checking out permutations of settings. This is because
every paper, every batch of ink, is different, just enough to
change everything, and printing is a hornet's nest. Don't let
it get you too frustrated. You're not alone.

see my gallery of astrophotos at http://www.artsdigitalphoto.com
Art

Frank Nichols · Aug 21, 2002

Been there done that, just with different papers. Here is what I have found. (This assumes you are using a windows machine and not a Mac.)

(Note: I have a S9000, but the print engine and print heads are identical to your S900 - the S9000 just has a wider carriage.)

1. Do a deep cleaning (again) and then recheck/readjust your head alignment - be very critical of which bars are the most solid and show the least stripes. Then print a Print Head Test pattern and examine it closely and critcally - no missing segments allowed.

2. Use the High Gloss Photo Film Setting.

3. Print something with large smooth "slow" transitions of flesh tones or sky.

(Don't worry at first about color accuracy. Make sure you can print a picture with no micro-banding, then get the color right by playing with paper choices and/or profiles.)

The first step (above) is to determine if your print head is bad. If you can not get a perfect test pattern, then don't bother going on to the next steps. Call Canon and they will send you a new print head. Look very carefully for missing segments - any missing is wrong. Some people report success with a couple missing segments, but I don't buy it. The pattern should be complete with no missing segments. (Don't know how to verify the yellow - good luck with that and if you figure it out, let the rest of us know!)

Step 2 is reported to put down less ink than paper settings higher on the list. I am not sure, but it does force the quality to FINE. This slows the printer and uses more ink, but is the only way I get printing with no micro-bands. (Note: you can set the quality to custom on other paper types and manually set the slider to FINE.)

Step 3 gives you an unambiguous expanse to look at - something with little or no detail so you can see the dither pattern and micro-bands if they exist.

Note that the Canon printer uses a very regular dither pattern (not random like some other printers.) and some people can see the regular pattern, and will call it "micro-banding". Wrong - I have micro-banding, micro-banding is (unfortunately) a friend of mine, and the dither pattern is not micro-banding...

Micro-banding appears as lines (mostly darker - in my case magenta) across the printout in the direction of the print head movement.

If this "helps" reduce the micro-banding and the test pattern is solid. Then the final step is to get and use a profile for the OD paper. There are some by a regular contributer on this forum (Joe B?). I have used his and they are good. I have since purchased Profile Prism ($69US) and made my own profiles The results are stunning and the microbanding is gone.

One other piece of information for you - I have both a Macintosh and a Windows PC which I print to my S9000 with and the Mac has almost no (virtually invisible) micro-banding, where the Windows PC required several weeks of playing to figure out the exact settings to get it under control.

On your photos - 5 MPixel is more than enough to print at 8x10 (unless you are a pro and sell your photos). That comment flies in the face of MOST recommmendations here and other places. Those recommendations are all based on getting the maximum detail you can possibly get on a printout. The average (and even some above average) viewers of my pictures are amazed at the "quality" of my 13 x 19 printouts from my 4Mpixel G2. Yes, if you get in real close and know what to look for you can see the effects of the interpolation to scale it up to that size. But, at normal viewing distance they are very good. So, don't blame your camera or images. They are not the problem. However, until you get everything working right, don't do ANY editing or sharpening of the images - just print them straight out of the camera.

So, bottom line - if you can't tame the micro-banding issue quickly, call Canon and complain. From all the reports of micro-banding I think they either had a bad batch of heads or have a qualtiy control issue with these print heads. From the reports I have read here, they will have you go through the steps above and then if the problem persists they send out a new head which most of the time fixes the problem. (Some people have reported having to go through several heads to get one that worked.)

Good luck!

Richard Ettenhuber said:
Based upon the many recommendations in this forum, I purchased OD
Premium High Gloss paper for my "new" Canon S900 to be used for my
"new" Sony 707 photos. If you haven't guessed I'm "new" when it
comes to digital photography! I have tried several different
combinations of paper settings in Print Setup including Photo Paper
Pro, Photo Paper Plus Glossy, Matte Photo Paper and Glossy Photo
Paper but always seem to get some noticeable banding with OD paper.
All of these settings default the Print Quality to "High", and the
Color Adjustment mode is set to Auto.

The original photo was taken at the highest resolution of the
F707---5 megapixels. I am trying to print to the full 8.5 x 11
paper size so there is some scaling going on, I assume. But the
kicker is I do not see the banding when the Plain Paper setting is
used with normal "plain paper" although the image quality is
inferior as you would expect.

Any help would be appreciated.

Rick

--
I plan on living forever - so far so good!

Chris R-UK · Aug 21, 2002

Frank Nichols said:
Step 2 is reported to put down less ink than paper settings higher
on the list. I am not sure, but it does force the quality to FINE.
This slows the printer and uses more ink, but is the only way I get
printing with no micro-bands. (Note: you can set the quality to
custom on other paper types and manually set the slider to FINE.)

Richard,

Just to emphasis Frank's point above: other people in this forum have managed to get rid of microbanding by forcing the print quality to the highest setting. You do this in the driver (I have an S820 which might be slightly different) by ticking the "Custom" box in the print quality section. A slider then appears. Push the slider all the way across to the right to the "1" position.

It might be worth trying this first if you haven't already done so.
--
Chris R

richard ettenhuber · Aug 21, 2002

Frank,

Thank you very much for taking the time for a very detailed reply. I followed your suggestions: Head Alignment check, deep cleaning (twice), paper setting, etc... I'm still seeing the problem. But I've tried a couple of different photos and have noticed the following.

There are definitely colors and sections that are affected on a print and other areas we I can't see the banding at all. So what I'm saying is that different photos show different areas of banding and it doesn't always appear to be across the entire width of the paper either.

I know this is difficult to visualize, but in a photo of a bright orange Hibiscus you can see noticeable banding on the petals of the flower, yet some area of leaves under neath the petals do not exhibit banding at all. It's as if to produce certain tones one color, or a couple of colors are "overspraying".

On another photo of Diamond Head in Hawaii, the water, sky beach, and sand show no noticeable banding, yet the Diamond Head Volcano which has earthtrone and shades of green clearly has the banding.

I rechecked the alignments again and they are all correctly set at "0" showing no lines.

Any other suggestions? I'm about to run through a set of cartridges with all the tests I'm running!

Thanks,
Rich

Frank Nichols said:
Been there done that, just with different papers. Here is what I
have found. (This assumes you are using a windows machine and not a
Mac.)

(Note: I have a S9000, but the print engine and print heads are
identical to your S900 - the S9000 just has a wider carriage.)

1. Do a deep cleaning (again) and then recheck/readjust your head
alignment - be very critical of which bars are the most solid and
show the least stripes. Then print a Print Head Test pattern and
examine it closely and critcally - no missing segments allowed.

2. Use the High Gloss Photo Film Setting.

3. Print something with large smooth "slow" transitions of flesh
tones or sky.

(Don't worry at first about color accuracy. Make sure you can print
a picture with no micro-banding, then get the color right by
playing with paper choices and/or profiles.)

The first step (above) is to determine if your print head is bad.
If you can not get a perfect test pattern, then don't bother going
on to the next steps. Call Canon and they will send you a new print
head. Look very carefully for missing segments - any missing is
wrong. Some people report success with a couple missing segments,
but I don't buy it. The pattern should be complete with no missing
segments. (Don't know how to verify the yellow - good luck with
that and if you figure it out, let the rest of us know!)

Step 2 is reported to put down less ink than paper settings higher
on the list. I am not sure, but it does force the quality to FINE.
This slows the printer and uses more ink, but is the only way I get
printing with no micro-bands. (Note: you can set the quality to
custom on other paper types and manually set the slider to FINE.)

Step 3 gives you an unambiguous expanse to look at - something with
little or no detail so you can see the dither pattern and
micro-bands if they exist.

Note that the Canon printer uses a very regular dither pattern (not
random like some other printers.) and some people can see the
regular pattern, and will call it "micro-banding". Wrong - I have
micro-banding, micro-banding is (unfortunately) a friend of mine,
and the dither pattern is not micro-banding... Micro-banding
appears as lines (mostly darker - in my case magenta) across the
printout in the direction of the print head movement.

If this "helps" reduce the micro-banding and the test pattern is
solid. Then the final step is to get and use a profile for the OD
paper. There are some by a regular contributer on this forum (Joe
B?). I have used his and they are good. I have since purchased
Profile Prism ($69US) and made my own profiles The results are
stunning and the microbanding is gone.

One other piece of information for you - I have both a Macintosh
and a Windows PC which I print to my S9000 with and the Mac has
almost no (virtually invisible) micro-banding, where the Windows PC
required several weeks of playing to figure out the exact settings
to get it under control.

On your photos - 5 MPixel is more than enough to print at 8x10
(unless you are a pro and sell your photos). That comment flies in
the face of MOST recommmendations here and other places. Those
recommendations are all based on getting the maximum detail you can
possibly get on a printout. The average (and even some above
average) viewers of my pictures are amazed at the "quality" of my
13 x 19 printouts from my 4Mpixel G2. Yes, if you get in real close
and know what to look for you can see the effects of the
interpolation to scale it up to that size. But, at normal viewing
distance they are very good. So, don't blame your camera or images.
They are not the problem. However, until you get everything working
right, don't do ANY editing or sharpening of the images - just
print them straight out of the camera.

So, bottom line - if you can't tame the micro-banding issue
quickly, call Canon and complain. From all the reports of
micro-banding I think they either had a bad batch of heads or have
a qualtiy control issue with these print heads. From the reports I
have read here, they will have you go through the steps above and
then if the problem persists they send out a new head which most of
the time fixes the problem. (Some people have reported having to go
through several heads to get one that worked.)

Good luck!

fotografer · Aug 21, 2002

Rich,

Did you try the suggested remedy to slide the number to 1 (and not default 2) in the print properties box? That seemed to solve quite a few banding problems. But bear in mind this absolute best setting makes the printhead work the hardest (therefore wear out quickest) and uses most inks.

If you have no success, then if you are in NA, return your machine or at least ask them to change the printhead.

--
Fotografer

Frank Nichols · Aug 21, 2002

Yes, the micro-banding is very color sensitive. And that is why I suggested a scene with little detail and a smooth slow changing color. That way the micro-banding is not hidden in detail. And no, it is not hard to visualize for me - I have look at it many many times...

At this point I strongly suggest that you call Canon support. Also of note, others have gotten Canon to replace the cart's they used in dealing with this along with replacing the Printer Head.

I don't think it is worth bringing up the "which paper" question, because I use many papers and some are more sensitive than others. the OD paper has a good reputation here, so I don't think that is the issue.

I really think Canon has some problems with the new print head technology and they appear to be willing to do the right thing for their customers by replacing the print head - so my advice is to take them up on it.

Good luck

fn

Richard Ettenhuber said:
Frank,

Thank you very much for taking the time for a very detailed reply.
I followed your suggestions: Head Alignment check, deep cleaning
(twice), paper setting, etc... I'm still seeing the problem. But
I've tried a couple of different photos and have noticed the
following.

There are definitely colors and sections that are affected on a
print and other areas we I can't see the banding at all. So what
I'm saying is that different photos show different areas of banding
and it doesn't always appear to be across the entire width of the
paper either.

I know this is difficult to visualize, but in a photo of a bright
orange Hibiscus you can see noticeable banding on the petals of the
flower, yet some area of leaves under neath the petals do not
exhibit banding at all. It's as if to produce certain tones one
color, or a couple of colors are "overspraying".

On another photo of Diamond Head in Hawaii, the water, sky beach,
and sand show no noticeable banding, yet the Diamond Head Volcano
which has earthtrone and shades of green clearly has the banding.

I rechecked the alignments again and they are all correctly set at
"0" showing no lines.

Any other suggestions? I'm about to run through a set of
cartridges with all the tests I'm running!

Thanks,
Rich

richard ettenhuber · Aug 21, 2002

Thanks to Frank and all the others who responded. I will be giving Canon a call.

Rich

Frank Nichols said:
At this point I strongly suggest that you call Canon support. Also
of note, others have gotten Canon to replace the cart's they used
in dealing with this along with replacing the Printer Head.

I don't think it is worth bringing up the "which paper" question,
because I use many papers and some are more sensitive than others.
the OD paper has a good reputation here, so I don't think that is
the issue.

I really think Canon has some problems with the new print head
technology and they appear to be willing to do the right thing for
their customers by replacing the print head - so my advice is to
take them up on it.

Good luck

fn

Richard Ettenhuber said:

Frank,

Thank you very much for taking the time for a very detailed reply.
I followed your suggestions: Head Alignment check, deep cleaning
(twice), paper setting, etc... I'm still seeing the problem. But
I've tried a couple of different photos and have noticed the
following.

There are definitely colors and sections that are affected on a
print and other areas we I can't see the banding at all. So what
I'm saying is that different photos show different areas of banding
and it doesn't always appear to be across the entire width of the
paper either.

I know this is difficult to visualize, but in a photo of a bright
orange Hibiscus you can see noticeable banding on the petals of the
flower, yet some area of leaves under neath the petals do not
exhibit banding at all. It's as if to produce certain tones one
color, or a couple of colors are "overspraying".

On another photo of Diamond Head in Hawaii, the water, sky beach,
and sand show no noticeable banding, yet the Diamond Head Volcano
which has earthtrone and shades of green clearly has the banding.

I rechecked the alignments again and they are all correctly set at
"0" showing no lines.

Any other suggestions? I'm about to run through a set of
cartridges with all the tests I'm running!

Thanks,
Rich

Click to expand...

richard ettenhuber · Aug 21, 2002

Yes, I did set it to 1

Rich

fotografer said:
Rich,

Did you try the suggested remedy to slide the number to 1 (and not
default 2) in the print properties box? That seemed to solve quite
a few banding problems. But bear in mind this absolute best setting
makes the printhead work the hardest (therefore wear out quickest)
and uses most inks.

If you have no success, then if you are in NA, return your machine
or at least ask them to change the printhead.

--
Fotografer

richard ettenhuber · Aug 22, 2002

In case anyone is interested... I call Canon Tech support and among other things they asked me to print out certian photos from their website and from my photos. They are sending me a mailer as they want to view the photos first hand. I told them it was likely the print head but they wanted to see for sure. I'll post the final results with can for the benefit of others.

Rich

Richard Ettenhuber said:
Rich

Frank Nichols said:

At this point I strongly suggest that you call Canon support. Also
of note, others have gotten Canon to replace the cart's they used
in dealing with this along with replacing the Printer Head.

I don't think it is worth bringing up the "which paper" question,
because I use many papers and some are more sensitive than others.
the OD paper has a good reputation here, so I don't think that is
the issue.

I really think Canon has some problems with the new print head
technology and they appear to be willing to do the right thing for
their customers by replacing the print head - so my advice is to
take them up on it.

Good luck

fn

Richard Ettenhuber said:

Frank,

Thank you very much for taking the time for a very detailed reply.
I followed your suggestions: Head Alignment check, deep cleaning
(twice), paper setting, etc... I'm still seeing the problem. But
I've tried a couple of different photos and have noticed the
following.

There are definitely colors and sections that are affected on a
print and other areas we I can't see the banding at all. So what
I'm saying is that different photos show different areas of banding
and it doesn't always appear to be across the entire width of the
paper either.

I know this is difficult to visualize, but in a photo of a bright
orange Hibiscus you can see noticeable banding on the petals of the
flower, yet some area of leaves under neath the petals do not
exhibit banding at all. It's as if to produce certain tones one
color, or a couple of colors are "overspraying".

On another photo of Diamond Head in Hawaii, the water, sky beach,
and sand show no noticeable banding, yet the Diamond Head Volcano
which has earthtrone and shades of green clearly has the banding.

I rechecked the alignments again and they are all correctly set at
"0" showing no lines.

Any other suggestions? I'm about to run through a set of
cartridges with all the tests I'm running!

Thanks,
Rich

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

fotografer · Aug 22, 2002

Rich,

Hmm, seems like Canon is getting too many returns reporting banding in their latest printers that they are now doing some screening.

This may be a bad sign... Let's keep our fingers crossed.

--
Fotografer

lswab · Aug 22, 2002

For what it's worth, I returned my first s9000 because of banding, and the replacement had the same problem. I got the same BS from tech support. Fortunately, my camera store agreed that the prints were unacceptable and gave me a refund.

In my case, quality level of 2 created 1/4" bands. Wherease quality level of 1 created much finer, say 1mm, bands.

...L

Richard Ettenhuber said:
In case anyone is interested... I call Canon Tech support and
among other things they asked me to print out certian photos from
their website and from my photos. They are sending me a mailer as
they want to view the photos first hand. I told them it was likely
the print head but they wanted to see for sure. I'll post the
final results with can for the benefit of others.

Rich

fotografer · Aug 22, 2002

Really?! Now this is interesting... Canon gurus out there, can you verify this? Or is L using the 'wrong' type of paper? We in HP knows of s800 banding problems, but even we ourselves are able to correct it/minimise it somehow...

Perhaps banding for s900 is really worse than their slower brother?

--
Fotografer

chingon · Aug 22, 2002

I really think it's with some of the heads. Many people, such as myself, get no banding at all. That's with a s9000. I did get banding onthe first 2 or 3 prints, but never since then. I've been watching very closely for it and nothing. I have seen people post on here of getting rid of banding with head replacement, I have also seen people who did it and it did not fix the problem. Eiither way, the banding people seem to be in the minority. I would exchange it myself.

Oh, I use OD paper.

fotografer said:
Really?! Now this is interesting... Canon gurus out there, can
you verify this? Or is L using the 'wrong' type of paper? We in HP
knows of s800 banding problems, but even we ourselves are able to
correct it/minimise it somehow...

Perhaps banding for s900 is really worse than their slower brother?

--
Fotografer

chingon · Aug 22, 2002

"L" doesn't say what paper he is using. If youi noticed on Isabel's thread many people responded and said they didn't have any problems. I assume that would mean banding also. I, and I'm sure most others, would find that unacceptable in a photo printer.

fotografer said:
Really?! Now this is interesting... Canon gurus out there, can
you verify this? Or is L using the 'wrong' type of paper? We in HP
knows of s800 banding problems, but even we ourselves are able to
correct it/minimise it somehow...

Perhaps banding for s900 is really worse than their slower brother?

--
Fotografer

fotografer · Aug 22, 2002

In inkjet printing business speak, if we get 5% complaint of the same problem, it's a HUGE issue already.

So, you can see why Canon is now screening their customers' prints to verify banding problems? Because Canon may thought it is 'allowable', but customers are saying 'not acceptable'. So there must be a meeting point somewhere.

I will tell you that with merely a 5% complaint of the same problem, Canon is reassessing their production line for their printheads fast... If not they will lose market share.

Rememer, according to consumer surveys, 1 dissatisfied vocal customer equals 29 dissatisfied silent customer. Each of these customers are, in turn going to tell 11 - 15 people (their friends, unfortunately, not support) and is around 40% less likely to buy another product from the same brand, even though it's a better product.

I think Canon is panicking now. This is not the 95% customers they are worried (and you are one of those). But the lost sheep they are worrying.

--
Fotografer

chingon · Aug 22, 2002

Sure, I can agree with that. Maybe that's why they want to see people's pictures now. Maybe they're trying to see if it IS in fact the same thing actually going on with these. You know how companies work, have to research and waste time before correcting it. Maybe they just need to get a little tighter on quality control. There really has been a big demand for these, they probably have pushed a few heads out the door that they shouldn't have.

There sure is a lot of maybe's in that paragraph, lol.

fotografer said:
In inkjet printing business speak, if we get 5% complaint of the
same problem, it's a HUGE issue already.

So, you can see why Canon is now screening their customers' prints
to verify banding problems? Because Canon may thought it is
'allowable', but customers are saying 'not acceptable'. So there
must be a meeting point somewhere.

I will tell you that with merely a 5% complaint of the same
problem, Canon is reassessing their production line for their
printheads fast... If not they will lose market share.

Rememer, according to consumer surveys, 1 dissatisfied vocal
customer equals 29 dissatisfied silent customer. Each of these
customers are, in turn going to tell 11 - 15 people (their friends,
unfortunately, not support) and is around 40% less likely to buy
another product from the same brand, even though it's a better
product.

I think Canon is panicking now. This is not the 95% customers they
are worried (and you are one of those). But the lost sheep they are
worrying.

--
Fotografer

Joe Barnhart · Aug 22, 2002

fotografer said:
Rememer, according to consumer surveys, 1 dissatisfied vocal
customer equals 29 dissatisfied silent customer. Each of these
customers are, in turn going to tell 11 - 15 people (their friends,
unfortunately, not support) and is around 40% less likely to buy
another product from the same brand, even though it's a better
product.

This is exactly what got me out of HP printers and made me try Canon. My dad got a DeskJet that failed with paper handling issues just past its warranty, three times in a row. After dad was invited to a third non-warranty repair, we switched to Canons and have been thrilled ever since. I can't say we've really tested their service as neither of us has had a failure in the short time we've been using our Canons (3 years).

fotografer · Aug 22, 2002

Joe,

Yes, the survey is done by HP. So you are one of our lost sheep.

Isn't true that after the 'fiasco', you are not even thinking of getting an HP anymore. I am sure the answer to this is (at least) 0.6 probability 'yes'.

Joe Barnhart said:
This is exactly what got me out of HP printers and made me try
Canon. My dad got a DeskJet that failed with paper handling issues
just past its warranty, three times in a row. After dad was
invited to a third non-warranty repair, we switched to Canons and
have been thrilled ever since. I can't say we've really tested
their service as neither of us has had a failure in the short time
we've been using our Canons (3 years).

--
Fotografer

fotografer · Aug 22, 2002

BTW, Joe,

I have been a HP user for 12 years, dj 500, 660C, 710C, 930C, cp1700.

I have NO such problems that you've got. I am the 95%, you were the 5%. See?

--
Fotografer

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