So disappointed - K200 STILL can't AF after sensor replaced

What's wrong with pentax?

What's wrong with c r kennedy??

Sent the K200D in 2 weeks ago, actually dropped it off in Melbourne with a CD containing images of severe front focus and also blurred images. There was a very specific document included on the CD, listing the problems and showing the evidence.

The front focus was around 1/3 to 2/3 the subject distance, using an F 50 f1.7 on a tripod with mirror lockup.

Also gave explicit details of how the system shuts down when in menu mode, when pressing the "up" arrow.

Last Monday got a call from their service department to say the camera was ready, after replacing the sensor. Nothing was done about the menu mode error.

They were kind enough to courier the camera to me, but I could only take test exposures on the weekend because I was so busy.

Oh, when the camera arrived I had to reset everything, because they had cleared all the settings. The camera would continually exit as I tried entering even the simplest location, date and time settings - it took ten minutes just to enter the correct time! The fools! Why could they not test for the fault I so clearly explained?

Anyway, took exposures with an F 135 f2.8, an F 35-135 and others. Focused on a clock tower about 200m away, in broad daylight. Every pic seems to show the point of focus about 70m in front of the camera - stopping down eventually got the tower in some semblance of focus as the DOF increased.

Oddly enough, every shot from the F 70-210 was sharp, but for some reason it will do that. I also think I have never had a focus issue when using the FA 24-90. Today the smc F 28-80 was fuzzy again, like it was 2 months ago, whereas 3 weeks ago it worked.

What are my chances of getting the australian agents to fix the rotten thing properly?? Not very good, i imagine...not without a lot of stress!

I'm glad my new Panasonic G1 arrives in a few days time.

I hope you don't suffer the same fate as I - every Pentax camera I have owned has given trouble.

1) SFx - wouild shut down on hot days, especially if it caught the sunlight while I was shooting (even on mild, below 30C days).

2) DS2 failed wiithout warning at 15 months and 2500 images - no extended warranty.

3) K200D has several serious issues - fortunately I bought a TED's extended warranty

--
Cheers

Trevor G

http://www.computerwyse.com/photo.html

The red square shows the focus point and the centre of the image, here cropped for clarity and reduced in size for comfort.

Just got the F 135 f2.8 - and I am amazed at just how sharp it is! Check the "No Through Road" sign, the detail on the trunk of the palm tree and the rubbish bin.

This is around 70m away, and the light standards in the background are around 170m away. The focus point varies with aperture and lens used, and does it randomly. Sometimes 2 exposures with the same setting will be quite different focus-wise.

P oorly
E ngineered
N ot
T erribly
A ccurate or
e X act

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Cheers

Trevor G

http://www.computerwyse.com/photo.html

Well it's not much help, but I've had several niggling issues on three 6MP bodies and similar problems regarding poor servicing in UK. The majority of the difficulties reported on this forum seem to be focus related, and this is a powerful reason to go for the Pana. Do please post your experiences with the G1 - the cd focussing should be accurate and reliable.

Having said that, I don't believe Pentax are any worse with regard to BF and FF issues than other manufacturers. A while ago I did a rough estimate of BF/FF issues between brands by searching for "back focus" and "front focus" in the brand forums on DPR, and dividing hits by discussion threads. Results as follows:

1 (0.8) Nikon D3/D2/D1/D700
2 (1.3) Nikon D80/D70/D60/D50/D40
3 (1.7) Pentax SLR
4 (1.8) Canon 1D/1DS/5D
5 (2.0) Canon 450D/400D/350D/300D
6 (2.7) Canon 40D/30D/20D/10D

So Nikon best, Canon worst, and Pentax in between.

Regards
Mike

well it looks like you've had a rotten batch of cameras... do you have a dark cloud above your head or a curse on you? Or did you break a mirror? one thing important to realize is that you are a very isolated case, sure we've all had minor and some major issues with our cameras/lenses but rarely do you ever hear of issues as bad as yours... where do you buy from? you know, so i don't buy from the same place. I hope you have better luck with the G1, at least that system won't easily suffer from FF and BF, however all systems will give have their problems and isolated cases of severe problems.
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Mike from Canada

'I like to think so far outside the box that it would require a telephoto lens just to see the box!' ~ 'My Quote '



http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?sort_order=views%20DESC&first_this_page=0&page_limit=180&&emailsearch=mighty_mike88%40hotmail.com&thumbnails=

The DS2 came from B&H - not their fault of course.

I decided to support local so the K200D came from TED's in Melbourne, Aus.

I was thinking about the K7 but noise banding, even if it is random, is still serious.

The random nature of Pentax problems suggests appaling design and quality control, both of camera bodies and lenses.

I really think pentax must be the poor man's chaice. The nonsense spouted about how good the lenses are is just that, nonsense. You will see better images in other forums.

The more we prop up this ailing, third-rate company the worse things will get. It IS happening now - just look at the multitude of growing complaints since their first DSLR.

I only ever bought my first pentax, the SFx, because I couldn't affords the Canon EOS. Their (Canon) designs and workmanship are clearly superior in so many ways. In much the same way, with some original thinking and some very good designs, Panasonic have come from nowhere to overtake pentax.

Pentax have had no new, original thought since their very first camera. - they're resting on their fading laurels.
--
Cheers

Trevor G

http://www.computerwyse.com/photo.html

Trevor G said:

The DS2 came from B&H - not their fault of course.

I decided to support local so the K200D came from TED's in Melbourne, Aus.

I was thinking about the K7 but noise banding, even if it is random, is still serious.

The random nature of Pentax problems suggests appaling design and quality control, both of camera bodies and lenses.

I really think pentax must be the poor man's chaice. The nonsense spouted about how good the lenses are is just that, nonsense. You will see better images in other forums.

The more we prop up this ailing, third-rate company the worse things will get. It IS happening now - just look at the multitude of growing complaints since their first DSLR.

I only ever bought my first pentax, the SFx, because I couldn't affords the Canon EOS. Their (Canon) designs and workmanship are clearly superior in so many ways. In much the same way, with some original thinking and some very good designs, Panasonic have come from nowhere to overtake pentax.

Pentax have had no new, original thought since their very first camera. - they're resting on their fading laurels.
--
Cheers

Trevor G

http://www.computerwyse.com/photo.html

Click to expand...

Wow trolling enough??

I really dont care what camera I shoot as long as it takes the pictures I want it to take. So please, go take your comments some where else.

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David
Cranbrook BC
'I am from the press'
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dbennison/

well you had bad luck no doubt, but I guess there have to be people winning the "negative lottery" ... at least your luck is that's with Pentax cameras and not with cars or something even worse...

so if you are having all this bad luck, try to get rid of this K200D and get yourself another brand and good luck...

for some of us, probably most, Pentax works quite well and has quite a few advantages that other brands do not have... but hey to each its own... if I had as many bad cameras from one manufactures as you did, I'd switch too... so far I had two Pentax ones, and both work great...

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common sense is anything but common

This just isn't true. My friends have had way more problems with their Canon's and Nikon's than I have had with my Pentax. It just depends on individual cases.

Your F series lenses are less than ideal for focus with the modern Pentax DSLR cameras (we are talking 20 year old AF lenses here). They are most likely to be all over the place in terms of focus. The reason some of your lenses are fine and others are not is fault of manufacturing tolerances in the lens mounts. If the mount isn't positioned correctly it will front or rear focus. Remember, these are old lenses. The K20d/K7 is a good solution for this problem since you can adjust each lens individually.

I hope you have better luck in the future, and on the plus side, the GH1 is contrast detect AF so it won't have front/rear focus issues, but will have its own batch of issues.

Eric
--
I never saw an ugly thing in my life: for let the form of an object
be what it may - light, shade, and perspective will always make it
beautiful. - John Constable (quote)

See my Blog at: http://viking79.blogspot.com/
Flickr Photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/28177041@N03/ (updated daily)
See my PPG Shots: http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/erictastad (6/5/09)

FWIW - I have a Sigma 24-70 lens that goofs up the menu setting process on my K100 with frequent shut-downs. Other lenses work without a hitch on the K100. Now the really odd thing is that the same Sigma 24-70 works just fine on my daughter's *istDL. Try a variety of lenses to see if you consistently have the menu problem. Note: the Sigma still works on the K100 in all other respects - the only malfunction occurs during menu setting. Took me a while to figure this out, and initially blamed the camera body. You're luck with Pentax really does seem to be out of the norm. I've had more Pentax SLR bodies than I can count, and the only serious problem that ever occurred was a malfunctioning flash on a used SF1n.

FWIW, if that picture represents much of a crop, it really doesn't prove anything. As you may be aware, the focus sensors are MUCH larger than the red square, and it appears from this picture that if the red square was the center, then the light poles to the left were probably within range of the sensor, and the camera was completely within its rights to select them rather than the building as a focus target. It's hard to say, because I don't know how much of a crop it it actually is, but it certainly looks extremely plausible.

Now, I'm sure you have more than just this picture to go on, but if you want to demonstrate a problem, it would help to post a picture that clearly shows it.

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Marc Sabatella
http://www.marcsabatella.com/
Blog: http://marcsabatella.blogspot.com/
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/marcsabatella/

Despite all the cheerleadering here, I feel Pentax is slipping away on original ideas and QC. I don't know how much impacts it had, but I used to read some stories that some of the Pentax best designers were being employed by Nikon and some others companies. These days Pentax seem to be too scared to explore funky ideas like Olympus do, and their zoom lenses have never been that great against Canon, Nikon & Minolta (now Sony) in general, and Olympus have far more and better zooms than Pentax even though they started late. What Pentax have left now are some LIMITED lenses and me-too zooms. I think the compact K-m & K7 are heading the right direction and hopefully it will not be short lived cos Pentax don't seem to have any rigid long term plan in recent history. I used to have pretty bad luck on buying Pentax products the last decade and every piece of lenses and cameras that I bought brand new had some sorts of quirks. As much as I enjoy repairing them, I was equally frustrated. Thank goodness the K-m I have owned is working w/o issue (except the spot meter is still not matching the focus screen but it was an easy fix) and nice to know that Pentax did improve the AWB, exposure & AF (my DS is just hopeless in comparsion but then they are 4 years apart in age). Speaking Panasonic, I think they are actually the best in QC, way ahead of Canon and Sony (not just cameras). They have been being popular for more than 3 decades in Asia with good reasons.
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Alan Chan
http://www.pbase.com/wlachan

self-turn off is something wrong with the main circuit board I think and definitely not user error (unless he was using some unsuitable batteries).
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Alan Chan
http://www.pbase.com/wlachan

When you sent your K200D in for service, did you send any of the lenses in as well?

Perhaps the problem with focus is not with your camera but with the lenses, or with the combination of camera and lens?

On the other issue of menus, it sounds as if something is not right with some of the electronics on the circuit boards.

You should at least send it back to CR Kennedy for that to be attended to.

Regards

Chris Stone

Marc Sabatella said:

FWIW, if that picture represents much of a crop, it really doesn't prove anything. As you may be aware, the focus sensors are MUCH larger than the red square,

Click to expand...

Could you explain, please, just how big those teensie weensie little focus squares which show up in the camera actually are?

Do they overlap, so that if the focus shifts from one to the adjacent one, it is not that one which actually is in use? I am really confused. By the way I use fixed centre spot focus, tripod (just also bought a new HD one) and mirror lockup.

I'll post a reduced view of the whole scene later.

I'll also post more pics, since you kindly asked last time and I respect your opinion.

Thanks Marc.

BTW Those large light standards are are least 75m on the other side of the point of actual focus...

BTW 2 I could be lying, and actually did focus on the road sign, but I'm not, and I didn't.

--
Cheers

Trevor G

http://www.computerwyse.com/photo.html

wlachan said:

self-turn off is something wrong with the main circuit board I think and definitely not user error (unless he was using some unsuitable batteries).

Click to expand...

Thankyou Alan!

I believe that is at the heart of the problem. That is intermittent, along with the mis-focus error.

I will post pics from the same lens 6 weeks apart, of the same scene, but with the first image very blurry (I wrote it up in a lens testing thread here:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1036&message=32218231 )
and the second image just as sharp and clear as you would expect.

When I first realised I had a problem I thought it was a case of poor lens design, but my "good" result just 3 weeks ago shows it is a very serious camera problem.

I wondered, ever since I bought the K200 in August last year why so many pics were so poorly defined. I also had the menu shutdown problem from the beginning, and should have returned it immediately, but it only happened occasionally and took me a while to work out the pattern. Oh, well!

--
Cheers

Trevor G

http://www.computerwyse.com/photo.html

This was using a venerable F 35-135 f3.5-4.5. It has been resized without any sharpening applied.

I think you will see that the focus plane is in a similar spot. I rechecked that auto focus was on while shooting, and that SR was off. I doubt very much that anyovershoot from the centre focus spot could catch any closer object so far off to the side.

I made a mistake in estimating the distances - I thought the light poles belonged to the bowling club in the distance, but they actually are just beyond the edge of the car yard, still at least 100m from camera, and another 50m probably past the road sign and garbage bin/palm tree area.

I am just heading out to try the F 135 f2.8 again at f2.8, and will pan and focus on the light poles and maybe even the street sign, to see what happens. It's so sharp at f2.8, and the DOF is reasonably small, that I think it will be easier to see just what happens. Oh, and I'll try manual focus as well, setting it to infinity on the clock tower.
--
Cheers

Trevor G

http://www.computerwyse.com/photo.html

bobore said:

FWIW - I have a Sigma 24-70 lens that goofs up the menu setting process on my K100 with frequent shut-downs. Other lenses work without a hitch on the K100. Now the really odd thing is that the same Sigma 24-70 works just fine on my daughter's *istDL. Try a variety of lenses to see if you consistently have the menu problem.

Click to expand...

Thanks for that suggestion - that's a very interesting and original thought.

I don't think it applies in my case, because I think I had the F 50 f1.7 attached when the cam was new and playing up, and the F 35-135 when I got it back the other day from warranty service.

However, I would still be very surprised if it was lens related, since I have only used genuine lenses to date.

But the suggestion is so good I will "have a little play". Thanks again!
--
Cheers

Trevor G

http://www.computerwyse.com/photo.html

Trevor G said:

Could you explain, please, just how big those teensie weensie little focus squares which show up in the camera actually are?

Do they overlap, so that if the focus shifts from one to the adjacent one, it is not that one which actually is in use? I am really confused.

Click to expand...

There's a pretty simple way to see for yourself. Put a small black dot on a sheet of white paper. Tape it to a wall, set camera to center focus, point camera at dot, and see what happens when you actually try to engage AF. Obviously, if the dot is centered, it will succeed. Now move the camera so the dot is a little off center and try to engage AF focus again. If it succeeds, then you've just proven the AF sensor is big enough to encompass that off center dot. Keep repeating the experiment, moving the camera around little by little, until you've established the actual boundaries of the center focus point. On my camera, it's about the size of - but a little larger than in the vertical dimension - the round brackets etched into the focus screen. The red square, when I used to have it turned on, is much smaller than those brackets. The fact that I only use center point but the red square doesn't actually tell you where the focus is - just the location of the center of the AF sensor - is why I've turned off the red square. All it does is mislead.

Even from the full size image, it's kind of hard for me to tell if the light poles were within range of the AF sensor or not. More controlled testing is definitely in order. But either way, it's an important learning experience. Even with a perfectly functioning camera, there will be times when the camera will choose to focus somewhere other than you intended, because the AF sensor just isn't a small enough pinpoint to allow you to convey to the camera where exactly you want focus to be. It's important to get a feel for how big the AF sensor is and when this might be a problem so you can look for this issue in the viewfinder, and try again, perhaps using focus-recompose techniques on a more unambiguous target, or perhaps using manual override (via quick shift if your lens supports it) when necessary. My own focusing abilities improved immensely during the weeks when I was convinced my cameras had focus issues and I started running focus tests obsessively. There was never anything wrong with any of the three camera I was testing; but it took me quite a while to learn to understand how the AF system worked to be able to see why I was getting the results I was, and how to use this knowledge to my advantage.

So again, you might indeed have a problem, but I'd say you should spend more time doing more controlled tests, taking the size of the AF sensor into account. that will settle the matter more definitively as well as teach you something about how your AF system works (or is supposed to work), thus enableing you to be more successful in the future.

Trevor G said:

BTW Those large light standards are are least 75m on the other side of the point of actual focus...

Click to expand...

Note physical distance is not really relevant. All that matters if whether or not they appear to be within range of that AF sensor from the vantage point of your camera. If you AF sensor turns out to be the size of the round brackets, then anything within those round brackets is fair game, regardless of its actual distance from the camera or from your intended target.

--
Marc Sabatella
http://www.marcsabatella.com/
Blog: http://marcsabatella.blogspot.com/
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/marcsabatella/

The circle and small square in the centre represent the autofocus spot area. Note that this pic was taken using manual focus.

The tower itself is very fuzzy and shows a double image, which suggests that the sensor is shifting, even though the just-replaced new sensor was set with SR off while these images were taken.

The camera was mounted on a tripod with mirror lockup, and the shutter speed was 1/750s.

The image on the left is very fuzzy and unsharp, whereas on the right it is, at similar distances, much sharper. I'll post a crop of the centre area and the tower later.
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Cheers

Trevor G

http://www.computerwyse.com/photo.html

I agree it is not an impressively sharp image. Although at the posted size, I don't see the "double" image you refer to - a crop would help. Also, I can't tell for sure how accurate your focus was, but it looks like the sharpest area might be ever so slightly behind the front the tower, which might explain the tower not being as sharp as it could be. But overall, as far as I can tell, what you are seeing could well be the result of using a consumer-grade zoom lens almost wide open at the extreme of its focal length range.

In any case, the points you circle for comparison on the sides are so far outside the focus zone, I'm not sure why you are so concerned with their appearance. It's certainly possible the lens has some sort of decentering defect, but you'd want a test where the sides were actually in focus to check that. I gather you are hypothesizing the camera could somehow be causing the effect you are seeing - like a tiltled senor, perhaps - but that seems a whole lot less likely to me than the possibility it's just not that great a lens. It would be interesting to see the crop of the focus area (and consider the possibility you missed a little and the focus is actually slightly behind the front of the tower), and then another test where the sides are actually in focus. Plus, if you really the camera is somehow at fault, similar tests with a different lens.

--
Marc Sabatella
http://www.marcsabatella.com/
Blog: http://marcsabatella.blogspot.com/
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/marcsabatella/