U.K. school forbids parents from photographing their own kids

It's called "Sesselfurzer" (seat - farters). That fits so well...
People who don't have any idea 'bout life, but telling all others
what to do 'cause It's written somewhere
Herfried:

Sesselfurzer!! Ein wirklich fabelhaftes Wort, daß ich noch nicht kennte...und dessen Bedeutung ich ohne Ihre Erklärung nicht vermuten haben könnte. Danke!

To all, I just received an e-mail from one of my blog readers, also from Germany. He writes:

"I (German) recently visited Ireland and photography wasn't allowed at an astounding lot of places, for example the National Museum in Dublin. Couldn't even take a photo of the dome in the entrance hall before someone rushed by (I was interested in taking shots of the architecture, not even the exhibitions themselves).

About the described paranoia, it seems to be a problem of the English speaking countries. I haven't heard of such nonsense here.. yet."

For what it's worth...

dc
 
chato wrote
Would these same parents object if they're children were photographed
with a celebrity?
Who knows?
Do they object when they are photographed two or three hundred times
a day by the ubiqtuious CCCD cameras?
Probably not, it is in a public place.
These are neither rational nor logical objections, anymore than those
who believe a photograph steals the soul.
They might think they are doing the best thing for their child.
When one goes out in public, to a mall, to a tourist attraction,
swiming, etc, etc, what then of privacy, and how does a photograph
alter the question?
Public place again, no problem.
Essentially the privacy question is a red herring. Granting it
validity is like granting validity to the idea that the photograph
steals the soul. Certainly a decent respect entitles people not to be
the target of my photography. On the other hand if I AM photographing
on the street, a public street in which these same kids are seen by
thousands, should I take this kind of paranoia seriously?
Just where does the idea come from that a photograph in a public
space is, defacto, an invasion of privacy?
I did not raise it, not in a 'public' place..
You do realise this idea is new? A primitive atavism that didn't
exist in the last generation, and suddenly becomes legitimate?
The ability for most households to distribute images around the world at a push of a button is new. Surely you recognise that.
MIght as well debate whether the earth is flat. A pedophile will take
a picture? Who cares? Is the photograph the modern day equivalent of
the voodoo doll, with the child being damaged by the primtive
rituals? And why would a pedophile search the net for such images,
when there really is a child porn industry which has Nothing to do
with these kinds of images.
You have gone back to a different discussion. This little sub thread was about the possible reasons of 'privacy' and that a parent might want to ensure their child's photo taken in a non-public place does not go round the world. Their reason may seem irrational to you, but are you saying they have absolutely no rights in non-public places? Imagine for one moment that a child might have an abnormal appearance, or a rare medical condition. Are you saying the parents have no control over photography on non-public property - perhaps school or hospital?

Am I the only one here that thinks these are difficult issues?

Nick
 
You have gone back to a different discussion. This little sub thread
was about the possible reasons of 'privacy' and that a parent might
want to ensure their child's photo taken in a non-public place does
not go round the world. Their reason may seem irrational to you, but
are you saying they have absolutely no rights in non-public places?
Imagine for one moment that a child might have an abnormal
appearance, or a rare medical condition. Are you saying the parents
have no control over photography on non-public property - perhaps
school or hospital?

Am I the only one here that thinks these are difficult issues?
Lets look at two extreme conditions: (1) A society with no laws or rules, and (2) A society where every thing we do is governed by a law or rule. Neither of these situations is to my liking.

The need for some laws is generally understood by most people. However, at some point society must rely less on law and more on individual morality and ethical standards. If not then you must accept a society in which every action is governed by a law.

--
WSSA Member #281 on 04-23-09
 
Do they object when they are photographed two or three hundred times
a day by the ubiqtuious CCCD cameras?
Probably not, it is in a public place.
You make a number of points below about the difference between public and private. I can't recall saying that I have a right to go into your house, and take images of you, let alone your children. So consider this remark an answer to all of those statements of yours, which have nothing to do with this or any other thread on this board. I say that because I can't recall Anyonce claiming such a right.
These are neither rational nor logical objections, anymore than those
who believe a photograph steals the soul.
They might think they are doing the best thing for their child.
Then shouldn't they keep their children in purdah until they are 50 years old or so? :) Life is difficult enough as it is, without demanding that society give in to or cater to, the irrational. No one will stop these parents from wrapping their kids in a Burkha... :)
You do realise this idea is new? A primitive atavism that didn't
exist in the last generation, and suddenly becomes legitimate?
The ability for most households to distribute images around the world
at a push of a button is new. Surely you recognise that.
And? You mean that that this changes things? Are these parents concerned about the number of people seeing their kids, or the fact that strangers are seeing their kids? Just because they've been told to fear this doesn't make it any more legitimate. Hundreds of thousands see their kids in a newspaper, millions might see thier kids on the internet. Tell me, do you actually look? Do pedophiles actually look for these kinds of images? If so, good for them. They wont be out looking to molest our kids if they are so easily satisfied.

Meanwhile of course just WHO is monitoring all those CCCD cameras? Can these same parents guarranttee that the images so aquired "wont go around the world at a push of a button?"
MIght as well debate whether the earth is flat. A pedophile will take
a picture? Who cares? Is the photograph the modern day equivalent of
the voodoo doll, with the child being damaged by the primtive
rituals? And why would a pedophile search the net for such images,
when there really is a child porn industry which has Nothing to do
with these kinds of images.
You have gone back to a different discussion. This little sub thread
was about the possible reasons of 'privacy' and that a parent might
want to ensure their child's photo taken in a non-public place does
not go round the world. Their reason may seem irrational to you, but
are you saying they have absolutely no rights in non-public places?
Imagine for one moment that a child might have an abnormal
appearance, or a rare medical condition. Are you saying the parents
have no control over photography on non-public property - perhaps
school or hospital?
A school play IS a public place, their medical records are NOT a public place. In one case hundreds of strangers are looking at their kids, in the other, it is the approved medical personal. Now most parents want to make memories our of their childrens plays and sporting events, out of any public activity. Yoiu are defending the right of people to believe that photographs are inherently evil, as opposed to defending the rights of most people.

No one forced their children to take part in public activities, yet in the pretend world of evil photographs, they are forcing everyone else to grant the validity of voodoo.

Dave
 
You have gone back to a different discussion. This little sub thread
was about the possible reasons of 'privacy' and that a parent might
want to ensure their child's photo taken in a non-public place does
not go round the world. Their reason may seem irrational to you, but
are you saying they have absolutely no rights in non-public places?
Imagine for one moment that a child might have an abnormal
appearance, or a rare medical condition. Are you saying the parents
have no control over photography on non-public property - perhaps
school or hospital?

Am I the only one here that thinks these are difficult issues?
Lets look at two extreme conditions: (1) A society with no laws or
rules, and (2) A society where every thing we do is governed by a law
or rule. Neither of these situations is to my liking.

The need for some laws is generally understood by most people.
However, at some point society must rely less on law and more on
individual morality and ethical standards. If not then you must
accept a society in which every action is governed by a law.
Nobody wants too many rules. But when it comes to looking after what could be the 'weak and vulnerable' are we to leave it to individual morality of others, or do we try to protect them? I don't have all the snappy answers, but it is not a simple matter.

Nick
 
You have gone back to a different discussion. This little sub thread
was about the possible reasons of 'privacy' and that a parent might
want to ensure their child's photo taken in a non-public place does
not go round the world. Their reason may seem irrational to you, but
are you saying they have absolutely no rights in non-public places?
Imagine for one moment that a child might have an abnormal
appearance, or a rare medical condition. Are you saying the parents
have no control over photography on non-public property - perhaps
school or hospital?

Am I the only one here that thinks these are difficult issues?
Lets look at two extreme conditions: (1) A society with no laws or
rules, and (2) A society where every thing we do is governed by a law
or rule. Neither of these situations is to my liking.

The need for some laws is generally understood by most people.
However, at some point society must rely less on law and more on
individual morality and ethical standards. If not then you must
accept a society in which every action is governed by a law.
Nobody wants too many rules. But when it comes to looking after what
could be the 'weak and vulnerable' are we to leave it to individual
morality of others, or do we try to protect them? I don't have all
the snappy answers, but it is not a simple matter.
I think you realize that photographers are, or could be, victims in this situation. Your position is to some extent as follows: To protect children we must sacrifice photographers or some part of their activity.

Alright. You want to protect children let's do it. Many children WILL DIE in automobile accidents this week. This is a much more serious situation than taking their picture. This is actual maiming and death. How should we handle this situation?

The point I am trying to make is whatever you decide, it should apply to more than just the subject at hand - photography. The decision or rule or law should address similar situations in other areas of human activity. Make it illegal to photograph children in public because they MIGHT be harmed? Fine. Then ban allowing children to ride in automobiles in public because some WILL be killed.

Another point I am trying to make is you cannot protect children from everything. You can provide them with the intelligence and understanding necessary to deal with these situations in the best possible way. As your frustration indicates, sometimes there is no perfect answer, only the best answer - which may be far from the answer we want.

--
WSSA Member #281 on 04-23-09
 
A school play IS a public place, their medical records are NOT a
public place.
I am sure a school in UK is not a public place. Parents attend a play or sports day at a school by invitation. You cannot walk off the street into a school without permission, technically. It is private property owned by the local authority.

No point in commenting on the rest of your reply as it is based upon the misconception that UK schools are a public place.

In the meantime, I had better brush up on my satanism.

Nick
 
A school play IS a public place, their medical records are NOT a
public place.
I am sure a school in UK is not a public place. Parents attend a play
or sports day at a school by invitation. You cannot walk off the
street into a school without permission, technically. It is private
property owned by the local authority.
No point in commenting on the rest of your reply as it is based upon
the misconception that UK schools are a public place.
I admit I know very little about the UK so I find your answers very interesting. From my perspective, when you say your schools are not a public place I assume then that they are paid for only by the parents and not others?

In the US, at least in my area, anyone can walk into a school but they must register at the front office. You are saying that unless you are a parent you cannot enter a school? In the USA, it is assumed all adults pay, through taxes, for schools and therefore they - the taxpayers - are the owners. Our schools are managed by local authorities.

Schools are private property owned by the local authority. As such they can make whatever rules they want, sell the school and take a vacation to the USA ?

Please tell me if I have it wrong because I did not realize there was this much difference between the UK and the USA.

--
WSSA Member #281 on 04-23-09
 
I think you realize that photographers are, or could be, victims in
this situation. Your position is to some extent as follows: To
protect children we must sacrifice photographers or some part of
their activity.
What I am saying is that within a school type environment (non-public place) there may be circumstances in which a parent should have the right to decide whether others can or cannot photograph their particular child. I am not saying public places, nor necessarily every school, nor necessarily every parent. It should be a matter of choice. And yes of course it would be better if they made an enlightened choice not to stop others usng their camera's on sport's day.
Alright. You want to protect children let's do it. Many children WILL
DIE in automobile accidents this week. This is a much more serious
situation than taking their picture. This is actual maiming and
death. How should we handle this situation?
Seat belts, highway code, driving licences, vehicle testing, industry safety standards and rules, training - I think we do our best.
The point I am trying to make is whatever you decide, it should apply
to more than just the subject at hand - photography. The decision or
rule or law should address similar situations in other areas of human
activity. Make it illegal to photograph children in public because
they MIGHT be harmed? Fine. Then ban allowing children to ride in
automobiles in public because some WILL be killed.
Not my suggestion, I am not anti photography but we photographers are not the only ones around competing for rights.
Another point I am trying to make is you cannot protect children from
everything. You can provide them with the intelligence and
understanding necessary to deal with these situations in the best
possible way. As your frustration indicates, sometimes there is no
perfect answer, only the best answer - which may be far from the
answer we want.
Yes, agree totally. It is about balancing conflicting interests. It is nice to hear your sensible views and in a civil manner.
Thanks,
Nick
 
A school play IS a public place, their medical records are NOT a
public place.
I am sure a school in UK is not a public place. Parents attend a play
or sports day at a school by invitation. You cannot walk off the
street into a school without permission, technically. It is private
property owned by the local authority.
No point in commenting on the rest of your reply as it is based upon
the misconception that UK schools are a public place.

In the meantime, I had better brush up on my satanism.

Nick
I'm a parent govenor at my sons Primary School so I have a bit of experience in this area. What you are saying is correct. A school is not a 'public place' in the UK and there is no legal right of access for all as and when they may think they see fit.

In practice it would be near impossible to deny a parent (as opposed to someone who isnt a parent of a child at the school) access to an 'open' event like a sports day or school concert without very good reason, not least because the school then opens itself to a charge of discrimination. The only parents I can recall with an outright access ban got it following a criminal conviction for assaulting staff at the school.

In our schools case there is no photo/filming ban at public access events. There have been occasional 'anti photo' arguments raised but they come from parents, not the school. Photography is in one sense low on our list of priorities, fighting off the more full on inanities and insanities of 'elf n' saftee' is what makes me lose the will to live sometimes ..........

Satanism is not (as yet) part of the primary school curriculum ;-)

--
Shay
 
I am not a legal expert, but it is my understanding that local authority schools strictly are not public places, even though they are paid for by the tax payer and provide a service to members of the public. A bit like Buckingham Palace, which we all pay for but have no rights of entry. Private schools are mostly paid for by the parents, but government do give some subsidies.

To be fair, most schools are very open and welcoming to the community and readily open their doors to extra curricular activity and used for voting.

Nick
 
Shay,
Thanks, in a sea of opposition it is nice to have some reassurance.
Off to bed.

Nick
 
1. Well, I wonder why it's not a problem in the good old USA, where we are free to photograph anything that can be legally seen; should you not believe me, visit here and find out for yourself.

2. Now, I am back to watching the Iran coverage, and of people that have real problems with security personnel, versus the trivial stuff being presented here ----- so, until sometime later, provided I even make it back, :-)

--
BRJR ....(LOL, some of us are quite satisfied as Hobbyists ..)


It's called "Sesselfurzer" (seat - farters). That fits so well...
People who don't have any idea 'bout life, but telling all others
what to do 'cause It's written somewhere
Herfried:

Sesselfurzer!! Ein wirklich fabelhaftes Wort, daß ich noch nicht
kennte...und dessen Bedeutung ich ohne Ihre Erklärung nicht vermuten
haben könnte. Danke!

To all, I just received an e-mail from one of my blog readers, also
from Germany. He writes:

"I (German) recently visited Ireland and photography wasn't allowed
at an astounding lot of places, for example the National Museum in
Dublin. Couldn't even take a photo of the dome in the entrance hall
before someone rushed by (I was interested in taking shots of the
architecture, not even the exhibitions themselves).

About the described paranoia, it seems to be a problem of the English
speaking countries. I haven't heard of such nonsense here.. yet."

For what it's worth...

dc
 
A school play IS a public place, their medical records are NOT a
public place.
I am sure a school in UK is not a public place. Parents attend a play
or sports day at a school by invitation. You cannot walk off the
street into a school without permission, technically. It is private
property owned by the local authority.
No point in commenting on the rest of your reply as it is based upon
the misconception that UK schools are a public place.
I admit I know very little about the UK so I find your answers very
interesting. From my perspective, when you say your schools are not a
public place I assume then that they are paid for only by the parents
and not others?
While the funding comes from various sources, it is essentially taxpayers money.
In the US, at least in my area, anyone can walk into a school but
they must register at the front office. You are saying that unless
you are a parent you cannot enter a school? In the USA, it is assumed
all adults pay, through taxes, for schools and therefore they - the
taxpayers - are the owners. Our schools are managed by local
authorities.
Essentially no. Thre's clearly a fundamental difference in the relationship between the concepts of tax paying and ownership between the two countries. Out of curiousity, if you have open access, how do you keep the less wanted visitors (dope dealers etc) out of schools?
Schools are private property owned by the local authority. As such
they can make whatever rules they want, sell the school and take a
vacation to the USA ?
No, not least because they have a legal duty to provide education for kids in a suitable place. As a school parent govenor I wish we could have more direct control over our affairs. My (limited) experience of American PTA's is that they are much more influential than their English equivalents.
Please tell me if I have it wrong because I did not realize there was
this much difference between the UK and the USA.
The UK and the USA have been described as two countries divided by a common language ;-). There's a lot of truth in that.
--
WSSA Member #281 on 04-23-09
--
Shay
 
I am not a legal expert, but it is my understanding that local
authority schools strictly are not public places, even though they
are paid for by the tax payer and provide a service to members of the
public.
A little off topic but I think important. I spent 36 years in a profession dealing with private money and public money. You have no idea how many red flags went up when I read your statement. I am not saying there is wrong doing with your system, but the potential for wrong doing is huge. One example would be that public money goes to the schools which are considered private. Therefore, they do not have to account for the expenditure of money the same as a public institution, that is to the taxpayer. This could be one reason why your leaders decided to make the schools private.

So if the school system decides one of these days to disburse extra money it has to various school board members and government officials, no one would really have to report this to the taxpayers or other government agencies.

Why would public money go to an institution providing a public service and yet that institution is considered private? Public institutions operate under one set of rules, usually more disclosure to the taxpayer and other government agencies. Private institutions operate under a different set of rules which usually have no disclosure to taxpayers or other government agencies. Again, huge red flags. Your leaders may have answers but they had better be darn good ones.

--
WSSA Member #281 on 04-23-09
 
Instead of complaining about nonexistent repression of rights, as I constantly hear from people in western democracies. Lets face it, we have it fairly easy compared to so many other people in the world; still, those of you, living in "democracies" that don't allow you the right to guns/firearms ownership, can well find that as in Iran, your government/police/Thugs will be able to treat you the same way, anytime they decide to do so. All of you, should now see the need for an armed citizenry, as our American forefathers did for USA citizens, :-)

--
BRJR ....(LOL, some of us are quite satisfied as Hobbyists ..)


Why you don't go there, feel safe there.... happy police...
 
A school play IS a public place, their medical records are NOT a
public place.
I am sure a school in UK is not a public place. Parents attend a play
or sports day at a school by invitation. You cannot walk off the
street into a school without permission, technically. It is private
property owned by the local authority.
No point in commenting on the rest of your reply as it is based upon
the misconception that UK schools are a public place.
I admit I know very little about the UK so I find your answers very
interesting. From my perspective, when you say your schools are not a
public place I assume then that they are paid for only by the parents
and not others?
While the funding comes from various sources, it is essentially
taxpayers money.
In the US, at least in my area, anyone can walk into a school but
they must register at the front office. You are saying that unless
you are a parent you cannot enter a school? In the USA, it is assumed
all adults pay, through taxes, for schools and therefore they - the
taxpayers - are the owners. Our schools are managed by local
authorities.
Essentially no. Thre's clearly a fundamental difference in the
relationship between the concepts of tax paying and ownership between
the two countries. Out of curiousity, if you have open access, how do
you keep the less wanted visitors (dope dealers etc) out of schools?
This is why you must register at the front desk. A couple of years ago I had to go into a high school to see a student. I walked in, registered and provided the name of the student, and went on my way.
Schools are private property owned by the local authority. As such
they can make whatever rules they want, sell the school and take a
vacation to the USA ?
No, not least because they have a legal duty to provide education for
kids in a suitable place. As a school parent govenor I wish we could
have more direct control over our affairs. My (limited) experience
of American PTA's is that they are much more influential than their
English equivalents.
I am having a problem with the words public and private. Interchanging these words almost always indicates the potential for wrong doing.

Public money builds the school, which is privately owned. Since it is privately owned it could avoid reporting to tax payers and other government agencies certain information. In other words, it does not have the same accountability as public institutions. Now if you tell me I am wrong, then I have to ask why would you use public money to build an institution that serves the public and call it a private institution? If that does not indicate the potential for wrong doing I don't know what would.
Please tell me if I have it wrong because I did not realize there was
this much difference between the UK and the USA.
The UK and the USA have been described as two countries divided by a
common language ;-). There's a lot of truth in that.
Yes and I think - I hope - I am lost only in the terminology because something does not appear to be what it should.
--
WSSA Member #281 on 04-23-09
--
Shay
--
WSSA Member #281 on 04-23-09
 
Please continue to ignore the fact that some countries/cultures are more paranoid about photographers than others.

Or perhaps you are hoping to see links to reportage on the banning of "soul-stealing" by way of photography in non-western countries?
 

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