Nikon D90 is the first camera i've owned where "M" mode is simpler than P,A or S mode

Dennis Bingham said:

gerryd04 said:

Guess you must leave auto iso on all the time

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Interesting, do you shoot in lower light a lot ? I would have guessed that auto iso, M, and decent light would adjust and meter just the same in matrix.

--
Gerry,
http://gerryd.smugmug.com/ discount code on homepage

'There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot.' - Steven Wright

No, usually in fairly bright conditions only, which is part of the problem as Matrix metering seems to overexpose by quite a large margin (I THINK it does on MY camera - for all you symantics hunters out there; i did not state a fact nor did i include ALL d90s). I can achieve the same good exposure by using one of the other modes and dial negative exp. comp. of course, but it doesn't give me the feedback as the lightmeter in "M" mode as it's static in P,S or A mode.

I think the problem i have is that in P,S or A mode, the camera tries to think for me and adjust the image parameters as the camera thinks the picture SHOULD look like. I then have to override this "thinking" by adjusting the exp. comp. into the negative, whereas i don't let the camera think for me in "M" mode (except ISO - which, interestingly enough, the camera does seem adjust much better than all the other factors) and therefor can shoot away faster in "M".

gerryd04 said:

Dennis Bingham said:

gerryd04 said:

Guess you must leave auto iso on all the time

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Interesting, do you shoot in lower light a lot ? I would have guessed
that auto iso, M, and decent light would adjust and meter just the
same in matrix.

--
Gerry,
http://gerryd.smugmug.com/ discount code on homepage

'There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore
like an idiot.' - Steven Wright

Click to expand...

--
Canon SD780IS P&S
Nikon D90 18-105mm VR + 70-300mm VR
Olympus E-620 dual kit lenses and 70-300mm (Wife's Cam)

Dennis Bingham said:

No, usually in fairly bright conditions only, which is part of the
problem as Matrix metering seems to overexpose by quite a large
margin (I THINK it does on MY camera - for all you symantics hunters
out there; i did not state a fact nor did i include ALL d90s). I can
achieve the same good exposure by using one of the other modes and
dial negative exp. comp. of course, but it doesn't give me the
feedback as the lightmeter in "M" mode as it's static in P,S or A
mode.

Click to expand...

I initially dialled in negative exposure in matrix only in the custom setting, then used EC only on bright days, which worked ok. Then went to CW for most shooting (except flash where matrix seems ok) with minus 1/3 on bright days, seems more consistent and rarely off.

But I do a lot of sport in changing light so prefer A mode, and I also use the flatter curve with the neutral picture control.

Dennis Bingham said:

I think the problem i have is that in P,S or A mode, the camera tries
to think for me and adjust the image parameters as the camera thinks
the picture SHOULD look like. I then have to override this "thinking"
by adjusting the exp. comp. into the negative, whereas i don't let
the camera think for me in "M" mode (except ISO - which,
interestingly enough, the camera does seem adjust much better than
all the other factors) and therefor can shoot away faster in "M".

Click to expand...

Thats the bit I don't get, I would have thought auto anything and matrix would be the same, may test this some day, but I use fast glass most times and prefer as low an iso as I can get, so find A easier, all I need to do is monitor shutter depending on what I'm shooting.

Whatever works is the right way eh

--
Gerry,
http://gerryd.smugmug.com/ discount code on homepage

'There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot.' - Steven Wright

Yes, whatever works best i guess!

On a related sidenote....i'm not sure if i should return the D90 and try out a different D90 to see if the overexposure (on sunny days, i have to dial up to -2 exp. comp.....yeah, not -0.2 but minus 2 two full stops) gets better and i just picked a bad D90....it kind of drives me nuts not knowing.

--
Canon SD780IS P&S
Nikon D90 18-105mm VR + 70-300mm VR
Olympus E-620 dual kit lenses and 70-300mm (Wife's Cam)

Dennis Bingham said:

Yes, whatever works best i guess!

On a related sidenote....i'm not sure if i should return the D90 and
try out a different D90 to see if the overexposure (on sunny days, i
have to dial up to -2 exp. comp.....yeah, not -0.2 but minus 2 two
full stops) gets better and i just picked a bad D90....it kind of
drives me nuts not knowing.

Click to expand...

Sounds very wrong to be that far out, mine out of the box in hight contrast scenes seemed around -1/3 or so at times, at others it worked, it was the inconsistency that got to me. Then I got used to it and metered in the brighter area where possible with -1/3 dialled in and it was ok.

Also an aside, just saw your macro thread. I had the older nikon 60 which I loved, but found myself wanting longer, but also a double duty portrait lens, so the 100ish ones were my target. Nikon to rich, studied the rest for a long time (sigma, tamron, tokina).

My research found for pure iq and bokeh the tamron and tokina were the best imho, with the tokina more solid in build. Decided I'd just get the best deal and ended up with a mint tammy for a good price.

Two recent threads may be of interest
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1034&message=31998201
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1034&message=32063920

--
Gerry,
http://gerryd.smugmug.com/ discount code on homepage

'There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot.' - Steven Wright

Thanks Gerry, very good info!!

--
Canon SD780IS P&S
Nikon D90 18-105mm VR + 70-300mm VR
Olympus E-620 dual kit lenses and 70-300mm (Wife's Cam)

Dennis Bingham said:

Yes, whatever works best i guess!

On a related sidenote....i'm not sure if i should return the D90 and
try out a different D90 to see if the overexposure (on sunny days, i
have to dial up to -2 exp. comp.....yeah, not -0.2 but minus 2 two
full stops) gets better and i just picked a bad D90....it kind of
drives me nuts not knowing.

--
Canon SD780IS P&S
Nikon D90 18-105mm VR + 70-300mm VR
Olympus E-620 dual kit lenses and 70-300mm (Wife's Cam)

Click to expand...

This may be related to using auto ISO. I use a D80 and when I shoot manual with auto ISO one stop of EV comp changes the exposure a lot less that one stop of EV comp then in any other mode.

I was playing around one day in manual w/ auto ISO going with negative EV and -1/3 showed little difference in exposure -2/3 showed a slight change, and -1 is really the first setting that showed any real exposure difference. My take was that there is something going on that I have to use a lot more EV comp with manual + auto ISO than in other modes.
--
Snapshott

Well, i just made a test with the D90 and the Olympus E-620.

Put both cams in "P" mode, chose Aperture of 4.0 and ISO 200. Interestingly enough, the D90 used 1/60 shutter speed and the Olympus used 1/125 for the same scene. Needless to say that the D90 overexposed the sky and the white house in the picture, whereas the E-620 exposed properly for both sky and the house.

The sky in the D90 pic is blown (255 color data), whereas the Sky on the Oly is anywhere in between 220 and 240 color data, which leads me to believe that the Oly has the more accurate metering for this scene or that my D90s matrix metering is simply defective.

The pics, downzised (C&C not welcome on these lol):





Just to clarify: The first pic is the Olympus, the second pic the D90. The Olympus also clearly captured the "reality" a lot more whereas the D90 looks almost like a P&S overcooked camera here. There is no image control used beyond both set to "normal" without adjustments.
--
Canon SD780IS P&S
Nikon D90 18-105mm VR + 70-300mm VR
Olympus E-620 dual kit lenses and 70-300mm (Wife's Cam)

1/60th vs 1/125th. Thats one full stop. Seriously, I can't say I do see one full stop of difference in those two images, more like 1/3rd. Light conditions must have changed between the two shhots, or other factors such as Active D-Lightning must have been at play. Remember, different lenses may expose as much as a stop different from each other at same aperture. Theoretical aperture and effective/actual aperture might be quite a bit different. It has to do with lens design, coatings and such.

Mac

--
Visit my blog at http://www.mindovermadness.org

“I cannot and will not cut my conscience to fit this year’s fashions.”
— Lillian Hellman

I can assure you that light conditions did not change. Those two shots were made seconds from each other and it's total overcast here with no significant light changes right now.
--
Canon SD780IS P&S
Nikon D90 18-105mm VR + 70-300mm VR
Olympus E-620 dual kit lenses and 70-300mm (Wife's Cam)

Well the fact that those two pictures are so close in terms of exposure, maybe 1/3rd of a stop, hints at the cause being maybe picture profiles/curves related stuff, or differences between the lenses used. Metering is likely a little bit different, it's different brands and all that, but if it was one full stop, you'd see it more pronounced. No I'm not sayng that the D90 doesn't meter a bit hot, mine does, but that those two test shots doesn't really tell us much, if anything.

Mac

--
Visit my blog at http://www.mindovermadness.org

“I cannot and will not cut my conscience to fit this year’s fashions.”
— Lillian Hellman

What would tell you much if not two comparison shots from 2 different cams at the same settings? Seriously, if i can give more examples to figure this out, then i'll do whats necessary, if only to find out if it's me thinking wrong or my cam exposing wrong in matrix metering mode.
--
Canon SD780IS P&S
Nikon D90 18-105mm VR + 70-300mm VR
Olympus E-620 dual kit lenses and 70-300mm (Wife's Cam)

How about including the exif data for the two shots? Like others are saying, there are a lot of things that could be coming into play, besides the obvious Shutter, Aperture, and ISO:

--Active D-Lighting can affect exposure (usually underexposes by a 1/3 and then pulls up the shadows), so it'd help to know if this was on or off.

--What Picture Control? Neutral will give you a more conservative curve, while something like Vivid will really pump up the contrast/saturation (and add to blown highlights).

--Lens used: like someone else said, lenses will vary considerably in the "actual" light they let in...people have complained that the 16-85mm lens is actually "darker" than the aperture suggests, while I notice that my 85mm 1.8 and Sigma 10-20mm tend to shoot a little hot.

--Was this RAW or JPEG? If RAW, then the software you used to convert it can come into play.

--Can you see (in software) EXACTLY where each camera's focus point was? Minor changes to the focus area can affect it; if one camera was focusing on the house, and the other was focusing on that bush right in front of the house, for example, you could get different exposures.

Also, are you saying that you find the D90 overexposes consistently? I mean, are we talking about all conditions, or just high contrast conditions like this? If you think the D90 is overexposing all the time, you could simply Fine Tune Optimal Exposure (b4), and then you'd be set.

Just a couple thoughts,
wigs

Focus point on both cams was the same. Sorry you will have to believe me here as i don't know how to prove it. It was focused on the corner of the house, white part in the middle. And it does overexpose constantly in matrix metering but it's hard to predict how much, otherwise i would've set the B4 Menu option option already. It's worse in high contrast situations though, that's for sure.

EXIF for both shots:

---- Image Information ---------------------------------------------------------
Filename: P6190622.JPG
File size: 8 MB (8 464 293 bytes)
Dimensions: 4032 x 3024
Bit depth: 24
Created: Friday, June 19, 2009 8:41:25 AM
Changed: Friday, June 19, 2009 8:41:26 AM

---- Description ---------------------------------------------------------------
Title OLYMPUS DIGITAL CAMERA

---- Picture Taking Conditions -------------------------------------------------
Audio note No
Camera data Yes
Text information Yes
Created Friday, June 19, 2009 8:41:25 AM
Digitized Friday, June 19, 2009 8:41:25 AM
Modified Friday, June 19, 2009 8:41:25 AM
Flash No
Exposure time 1/125 s
Aperture 4.0
Max. aperture 3.50
Focal length 14.00 mm
Focal length (EQ35mm) 28 mm
ISO 200
Digital zoom ratio 1.00
Exposure bias 0
Metering mode Pattern
Exposure mode Auto exposure
White balance Automatic
Exposure program Normal program
Orientation Normal
Sharpness Hard
Contrast Weak
Saturation High saturation
Gain control Low gain up
Scene capture type Standard
Light source Unknown
Camera Make OLYMPUS IMAGING CORP.
Model E-620
Software Version 1.0
Compression JFIF Compression
Color representation YCbCR
DPI 314.00
Exif version 2.21
Flashpix version 1.00
Colorspace sRGB
Flash - detailed Flash did not fire, Auto mode
File source Digital camera
Custom image processing Normal process
Keywords No
Digital signature No

---- Image Information ---------------------------------------------------------
Filename: DSC_0479.JPG
File size: 6.4 MB (6 809 568 bytes)
Dimensions: 4288 x 2848
Bit depth: 24
Created: Sunday, July 19, 2009 8:40:35 AM
Changed: Sunday, July 19, 2009 8:40:36 AM

---- Description ---------------------------------------------------------------

---- Picture Taking Conditions -------------------------------------------------
Audio note No
Camera data Yes
Text information No
Created Sunday, July 19, 2009 8:40:35 AM
Digitized Sunday, July 19, 2009 8:40:35 AM
Modified Sunday, July 19, 2009 8:40:35 AM
Flash No
Exposure time 1/60 s
Aperture 4.0
Max. aperture 3.61
Focal length 18.00 mm
Focal length (EQ35mm) 27 mm
ISO 200
Digital zoom ratio 1.00
Exposure bias 0
Metering mode Pattern
Exposure mode Auto exposure
White balance Automatic
Exposure program Normal program
Orientation Normal
Sharpness Hard
Contrast Normal
Saturation Normal
Gain control None
Scene capture type Standard
Light source Unknown
Camera Make NIKON CORPORATION
Model NIKON D90
Software Ver.1.00
Compression JFIF Compression
Color representation YCbCR
DPI 300.00
Exif version 2.21
Flashpix version 1.00
Colorspace sRGB
Flash - detailed Flash did not fire
Sensing method One-chip color area sensor
File source Digital camera
Scene type A directly photographed image
Custom image processing Normal process
Subject distance range None
Image Unique ID 898
Lens’s focal length 18.00 - 105.00 mm f/3.5 - 5.6
Keywords No
Digital signature No
Flash bias 0

--
Canon SD780IS P&S
Nikon D90 18-105mm VR + 70-300mm VR
Olympus E-620 dual kit lenses and 70-300mm (Wife's Cam)

I posted the EXIF data in my post above. I forgot to mention that Active-D lighting was on "Auto" for these shots. Lens for Nikon was 18-105mm VR at 18mm (27mm equiv) and for Olympus it was 14-42mm Kit lens at 14mm (28mm equiv). Due to the 4/3 standard on the oly compared to the 3/2, you see a slightly different picture of course.
--
Canon SD780IS P&S
Nikon D90 18-105mm VR + 70-300mm VR
Olympus E-620 dual kit lenses and 70-300mm (Wife's Cam)

Interesting stuff Dennis.

I would next try with ADL off.

I know you are testing matrix metering but you should also test using centre weighted metering. Many have said that this is better in high contrast scenes.

i had a caveat in there for exposure compensation. i should have said you can't manipulate exposure with just the dials.

FRC said:

gif said:

the meter shows in the other modes. you just can't really manipulate
it, because it always attempts to keep the reading in the center (or
off-center depending on your exposure compensation).

Click to expand...

Could you please explain what you mean by "can't really manipulate
it?" Exposure compensation allows a + - 5 EV adjustment.

Pressing the Exposure Compensation button and turning the Main
Control Dial in P,S, or A shooting mode should move that meter
(Electronic analog exposure display) in 1/3 (.3) increments unless
the default is changed to 1/2 steps.

Click to expand...

I found the D90 tends to blown out the sky too. -1/3ev usually will do the trick. So by saying manual mode is better. Do you mean you can easily adjust the exposure without pressing the dedicated + - button?

D5000 seems to have better DR, it maybe due to better jpeg handling or minor metering tweaks. I wish Nikon can update D90's firmware since D90 is still a fresh camera.

thanks

Yeah kinda.
--
Canon SD780IS P&S
Nikon D90 18-105mm VR + 70-300mm VR
Olympus E-620 dual kit lenses and 70-300mm (Wife's Cam)

Just curious... overall, do you like your D90 more or your wife's E-620? Too bad there is no perfect camera ^^