The root of Sony's problems

Klipsen · Jun 18, 2009

Because I sure don't!

robertng said:
.....The word is "α700 is as confident in our work is the
product easy to use and actual use. However, sales were quite
difficult. The specs were not the unhappy in many ways may be because
there was some outstanding features " ...

There's neither head nor tail to that statement.

That a representative at a show says sales were difficult does not necessarily mean that they were low. It could also mean that they had to lower their price vis-à-vis the importers and/or retailers. It could also mean that they had expected to catch Canon and Nikon more by surprise.

robertng said:
Sigh....It is a great camera, I definitely agree. But what we
perceive can be absolutely contrary to how the consumers respond

And we really don't know. When Minolta folded, "my" photo store bought probably 20 of the 5D, maybe more. They sold them all in a relatively short time. Only once have I noticed a Minolta 5D in the hands of someone, and I had to go to Sicily to see a 7D other than my own. I've yet to see another A700 (outside a shop), but I know they must be somewhere, because I see pictures posted that were taken with them.

Honestly, I have no idea how many A700's have been sold worldwide, and I don't know how many would have to be sold to call it a success, but, looking at sales figures, I somehow get a feeling that Sony must be selling more cameras than Olympus, Pentax and Sigma combined, and they can't all be A200/3X0's. If that's the case, those companies are much worse at listening to their customers, and yet the new Pentax is being heralded on the Sony forum as "the one Sony won't give us". Pur-lease!

robertng · Jun 18, 2009

Klipsen said:
robertng said:

.....The word is "α700 is as confident in our work is the
product easy to use and actual use. However, sales were quite
difficult. The specs were not the unhappy in many ways may be because
there was some outstanding features " ...

Click to expand...

There's neither head nor tail to that statement.

I dont needa read the translation because I know Japanese a little bit enough to comprehend the original article. I apologised for the translation becoz it's obviously mediocre. What they meant was that they expected good sales number from a700 because there were features they thought that were excellent, but to their disasppointment it didnt suit the taste of the market compared to its competitors. And thus afterwards they released a350 etc...

Klipsen said:
That a representative at a show says sales were difficult does not
necessarily mean that they were low. It could also mean that they had
to lower their price vis-à-vis the importers and/or retailers. It
could also mean that they had expected to catch Canon and Nikon more
by surprise.

And they definitely are not just ordinary sales representatives: Niseki Akira Product Planning Division, Department of Business Systems, α Mr. Qi Ji word division manager responsible for business systems, business PASONARUIMEJINGU Division 2, Division Supervisor, Director Teshiroki Hidehiko

Ken_5D · Jun 18, 2009

Barry Fitzgerald said:
Klipsen said:

I cannot know what insight you have in these matters, but I also
cannot believe that you know more about Sony's sales figures and
strategy than they themselves do.

Click to expand...

It's open to debate and very much. We have a number of issues here.
Is everything Sony do perfect, of course not. But they have done some
blunders..of that there is no question.

Releasing a semi pro model with NR raw probably did hurt sales, and
they were slow to fix the issue. That is something few folks would
ever have done, after all raw is DIY, take that control away..and you
have little point in raw.

Leaving that aside, let's move onto the segmented flash system, I
think we have heard many comments on that, this new small flash unit
is really a quick fix for A900 users, I bet most think the A900
should have had onboard flash.

That makes obvious mistake 2

Mistake 3 was with the A100 and pricing it too high at launch (and we
could say the same for the A700 as well) There are many other ones to
talk about as well, absurd prices on the A200-350 grips, no wonder
they didn't sell many of those. Again, pure illogical from sony,
release the cheapest DSLR in Europe, with the most expensive
grip..duh!

Ok it's not all bad, and the entry models sold well (so I hear) and
amazingly I have started to see Sony DSLR's about, A200's, 350's etc.

Sony were smart to do a cheap and fairly well featured entry model
range. However, I do still feel that the A350 should maybe have been
more than just a 14mp sensor, they could have used that model as a
semi mid ranger, but we have to see what the new A500 series brings,
and at what price.

The problem for Sony, is the new range of cameras, whom some declare
as smart, clever and going to take the market by storm. They won't.
Sony have shut out current users looking to upgrade, these are
downgrades, they won't appeal to system switchers either, they are
not well featured, consumers some might like them, but they lack the
obvious "video" modes to really exploit that area.

The DSLR market is dominated by 2 players, and I don't see Sony
hurting them, in fact I would go so far as to say their increased
share has mostly come at the expense of the other smaller players,
not the big 2. Until sony stop messing about and playing pander boy
to newbies and consumers, in the vain hope it will win them lots of
users, take the gloves off..and take the fight directly to Canikon,
that IS the target, to beat them.

NR in RAW without an OFF blunder.

No flash on A900 was a timing issue as no DSLR camera at that level had ever had a built in flash. I don't evne think many complained here about it on the mock-ups we had for a year. Then Canon and Nikon changed again Sony was probably too worried about being the camera not being seen as serious if it had a "toy" flash

So far we have seen a few new users on this board that are very happy with thier new cameras happier than you are. Maybe its your fault alone that the A230/A330/A380 are so newbie focused. You bought one and complained all the time so maybe they gave up on trying to compromise and support a few budget advance shooters who got a great camera for the price and still want more.

Your last statement is totally absurd. Sony has more share now than than #4 #5 and #6 Combined. I don't think Oly has lost much share. The others didn't have 6-8% to give to Sony.

The share clearly comes from Canon in straight math and on could argue that if Sony weren't there Nikon would have gotten those users. Canon has been losing market share. Nikon and Sony have been picking it up Oly has heald steady I think Pentax has lost but didn't have enough to lose to make up for Sony.

And if one is smart the reason is Pentax and Oly still are building cheap cameras with lots of features, hardly apealing to the same market the D40 1000D and Sony A200/A3x0 cameras are in. If Oly can create a solid new market in the PEN class camera.. they might scale back on DSLRs totally, in the case of pentax they are the water proof king which is still a niche. Pentax tried the "here look we don't touch the noise at all" method that was praised on the boards and it did't help at all.

New Sony cameras already are getting positive write-ups in Pop-Photo as new users machines. I am quite sure they will do well.. I think you probably complained last year about the new cameras being too simple compared to the KM5D and A100 and as was pointed out they did well enough that Sony renewed all three models. AS Sony gains share we can count on Barry predicting failure.

---------
Ken - A700 Owner..
Some of my work at:
http://gallery.cascadephotoworks.com

Klipsen · Jun 18, 2009

But I'm still no wiser as to the actual sales figures; as to whether Sony would have been laughed at for setting their hopes too high or too low; or if live view would have helped one bit.

Barry Fitzgerald · Jun 18, 2009

Ken_5D said:
No flash on A900 was a timing issue as no DSLR camera at that level
had ever had a built in flash. I don't evne think many complained
here about it on the mock-ups we had for a year. Then Canon and
Nikon changed again Sony was probably too worried about being the
camera not being seen as serious if it had a "toy" flash

A whole lot of film 9 users would not agree their camera is a "toy"

Ken_5D said:
So far we have seen a few new users on this board that are very happy
with thier new cameras happier than you are. Maybe its your fault
alone that the A230/A330/A380 are so newbie focused. You bought one
and complained all the time so maybe they gave up on trying to
compromise and support a few budget advance shooters who got a great
camera for the price and still want more.

This is hilarious, so "it's my fault" that sony went newbie on the new range. Ken, wake up a bit, pull your head out from under the Alpha love duvet cover with matching pillow cases. I made a number of "suggestions" and areas that could be improved, and so did others as well. Based on real world feedback. If sony ignore that, then that is up to them, I don't pull the alpha strings, nor does anyone.

And btw I bet "everyone would be delighted" if sony did implement some of those improvements on the current A200-350 range, showing Sony really do give a damn.

Ken_5D said:
The share clearly comes from Canon in straight math and on could
argue that if Sony weren't there Nikon would have gotten those users.
Canon has been losing market share. Nikon and Sony have been picking
it up Oly has heald steady I think Pentax has lost but didn't have
enough to lose to make up for Sony.

Canon and Nikon are not be hurt by Sony, not in any serious way..that is the goal, not cybershot alphas.

Ken_5D said:
And if one is smart the reason is Pentax and Oly still are building
cheap cameras with lots of features, hardly apealing to the same
market the D40 1000D and Sony A200/A3x0 cameras are in. If Oly can
create a solid new market in the PEN class camera.. they might scale
back on DSLRs totally, in the case of pentax they are the water proof
king which is still a niche. Pentax tried the "here look we don't
touch the noise at all" method that was praised on the boards and it
did't help at all.

This is the same pentax that shocks everyone with their K7 and has sony users going..wow this looks great. Pentax messed up before, the stuffed up their entry range which were good cameras, they seem back on track with the K7

Ken_5D said:
New Sony cameras already are getting positive write-ups in Pop-Photo
as new users machines. I am quite sure they will do well.. I think
you probably complained last year about the new cameras being too
simple compared to the KM5D and A100 and as was pointed out they did
well enough that Sony renewed all three models. AS Sony gains share
we can count on Barry predicting failure.

This is the same pop photo that declared the G1 as camera of the year, cough..honestly I read a few issues, and when you peel away the OTT ads (which are 80% of the mag), it's a junky magazine and nobody takes their reviews seriously at all.

No we can count on Ken with his "super fanboy" costume coming to the rescue, the same Ken who condemned Nikon for crippleware on their D40 series, who back tracks and pats Sony on the back for doing the same thing ;-)

jimb100 · Jun 18, 2009

--

For the life of me I can't understand why anyone on this board would care how many newbie cameras Sony can sell.

An esoteric discussion, at best, a waste of time at worst.

I'm only interested in Sony becoming a leader in high end photo equipment.

Minolta was a bust at marketing but was an innovater. Sony's promise was to be a marketer but also to challenge Nikon and Canon in the upper part of the market.

jamesdak · Jun 18, 2009

Oh boy, here comes another entertaining Barry/Ken slugfest, LOL!!

--
Long live the HMS Beagle
Critiques always welcome!

Klipsen · Jun 18, 2009

Barry Fitzgerald said:
A whole lot of film 9 users would not agree their camera is a "toy"

The point was, I'm sure, that anybody not having owned a 9 would point straight at a built-in flash and call it proof that it's not a pro-level camera. Any comments about the 9 would only lead to the question: "And how well did that one do?", meaning that the built-in flash was, at least in part, the reason why it didn't attract Nikon and Canon owners in any significant numbers. Canon owners hardly understand that you can have the built-in flash control external flashes, let alone that this function is available even on the lowliest entry level bodies.

Ken_5D · Jun 18, 2009

jimb100 said:
--
For the life of me I can't understand why anyone on this board would
care how many newbie cameras Sony can sell.

An esoteric discussion, at best, a waste of time at worst.

I'm only interested in Sony becoming a leader in high end photo
equipment.

Minolta was a bust at marketing but was an innovater. Sony's promise
was to be a marketer but also to challenge Nikon and Canon in the
upper part of the market.

I can't fathom why anyone would not care if they shoot a Sony DSLR and want more choices. Do you really think all the new lenses from Sigma and Tamron like the new 80mm F2 for Sony and the new HSM are being driven by A700 sales and Minolta upgraders?

The system gets better when 3rd party vendors see larger numbers of cameras being sold.

--
---------
Ken - A700 Owner..
Some of my work at:
http://gallery.cascadephotoworks.com

Ken_5D · Jun 18, 2009

jamesdak said:
Oh boy, here comes another entertaining Barry/Ken slugfest, LOL!!

Sorry I'm not going there.. Barry's has gotten into another all Sony does is bad modes and some name calling so I am not interested. It gets boring. He calls me a fan-boy.. yet I have more critical posts against Sony, when I think it makes sense, than he has positive posts. He is much more dogmatic than I am.

In the end I look at Sony business discussions from the POV of an experienced technology marketing professional, Barry looks at it from his own needs and any time Sony does something he doesn't like in his camera... they will fail.

So Samsung/Pentax/Oly take notice if you want to beat Sony, Canon, and Nikon.. build a semi-pro camera that is smarter than the photographer so you never have to use exposure compensation and it should only cost $400/£200 and that should come with a CZ/L/G level kit lens too

Then Barry will anoint you the new leader in DSLR design.

I am done with this part of the thread...
-----------
Ken - A700 Owner..
Some of my work at:
http://gallery.cascadephotoworks.com

Barry Fitzgerald · Jun 18, 2009

Ken_5D said:
Sorry I'm not going there.. Barry's has gotten into another all Sony
does is bad modes and some name calling so I am not interested. It
gets boring. He calls me a fan-boy.. yet I have more critical posts
against Sony, when I think it makes sense, than he has positive
posts. He is much more dogmatic than I am.

I stick to my guns, cybershot alphas are not the way forward. Why? Well the cybershot series is devoid of anything bar mediocre me too cameras. Esp the H CA monster series, some of them were frankly awful.

Nothing that appeals to more serious users, something like the lx-3, or ricoh cameras, they don't even try. Their new superzoom is nothing special, nothing G10 like. Sony are flat out of ideas in cybershot land, it's fall asleep time over there.

Shame, because they have shown potential here, again this is the price you pay for "consumer" and not "photographer" drive.

Ken_5D said:
In the end I look at Sony business discussions from the POV of an
experienced technology marketing professional, Barry looks at it
from his own needs and any time Sony does something he doesn't like
in his camera... they will fail.

I suspect it won't work based on the fact p&s users "do not want" in big numbers to have a DSLR, any DSLR..small big easy dumbed down whatever.

Ken_5D said:
I am done with this part of the thread...

Reality at last!

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The root of Sony's problems

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