Where's the Foveon X3?

Craig A Smith · Aug 15, 2002

Back in Feb. 2002, Foveon unvailed their revolutionary X3, the much ballyhooed "holy grail" of image sensors that can capture red, green and blue at each pixel. Everything I've read and the images I've downloaded indicates that, pixel for pixel, this thing blows away every other image sensor out there including the S2, D100 and D60. Foveon says that their little 3.5MP sensor approaches medium format film! I've read that a full frame 35mm X3 sensor could approach 4X5 film quality! Mindboggling! So far only Sigma has taken the bait with their as of yet unreleased SD-9. Why havn't the pro-DSLR makers (Nikon, Canon and Fuji) shown an interest in this technology?

christopher19826 · Aug 15, 2002

It was reported here that Foveon signed a two year exclusive deal with Sigma. The others can't touch it until then.

Craig Smith said:
Back in Feb. 2002, Foveon unvailed their revolutionary X3, the much
ballyhooed "holy grail" of image sensors that can capture red,
green and blue at each pixel. Everything I've read and the images
I've downloaded indicates that, pixel for pixel, this thing blows
away every other image sensor out there including the S2, D100 and
D60. Foveon says that their little 3.5MP sensor approaches medium
format film! I've read that a full frame 35mm X3 sensor could
approach 4X5 film quality! Mindboggling! So far only Sigma has
taken the bait with their as of yet unreleased SD-9. Why havn't the
pro-DSLR makers (Nikon, Canon and Fuji) shown an interest in this
technology?

Erik Magnuson · Aug 15, 2002

christopher said:
It was reported here that Foveon signed a two year exclusive deal
with Sigma. The others can't touch it until then.

Foveon denies such an agreement exists:
http://foveon.publicmind.com/enduser/group.jsp?node=1635

Question

Will other camera manufacturers besides Sigma be announcing products with Foveon X3 technology?

Answer

Foveon does not have an exclusive agreement with Sigma and is actively engaged with other major digital camera manufacturers. As partnerships are formed and can be made public, Foveon will provide more details.

--
Erik

ExposureMeter · Aug 15, 2002

christopher said:
It was reported here that Foveon signed a two year exclusive deal
with Sigma. The others can't touch it until then.

The two years may be up before the camera even arrives.
--
Geoff

Joe Nonneman · Aug 15, 2002

A little sparrow told me that they are going to release the SD-9/X3 a week or so after Silicon Film releases their drop-in "eFilm".

Geoff Ronalds said:
christopher said:

It was reported here that Foveon signed a two year exclusive deal
with Sigma. The others can't touch it until then.

Click to expand...

The two years may be up before the camera even arrives.
--
Geoff

Valliesto Bailey · Aug 15, 2002

And a week before the Sigma IS lenses.

But seriously, I think this is a case of trying to grab market share with a vaporware press release. The only samples we have seen to date are from a sensor that is different than the sensor that will be in the SD-9. And both parties have been strangely silent for having the "ultimate" in digital imaging sensors.

At this rate Foveon/Sigma will be surpassed by the next generation of Bayer sensors (if it is not surprassed by the current generation). It could be that Sigma/Foveon are trying very hard to come up with an upgraded sensor. I'd bet that the possible release of a Nikon replacement for the D1x and a new Canon in 6 months to a year, along with the great reviews of the D100, D60 and S2 Sigma/Foveon are sweating bullets. The SD-9 may turn out to be a bit under whelming.

Joe Nonneman said:
Geoff Ronalds said:

christopher said:

It was reported here that Foveon signed a two year exclusive deal
with Sigma. The others can't touch it until then.

Click to expand...

The two years may be up before the camera even arrives.
--
Geoff

Click to expand...

--
Valliesto

RDKirk · Aug 15, 2002

Erik Magnuson said:
Foveon does not have an exclusive agreement with Sigma and is
actively engaged with other major digital camera manufacturers. As
partnerships are formed and can be made public, Foveon will provide
more details.

Is that sheer speculation, or do you have actual information about meetings between Foveon and other camera manufacturers?

I doubt those who make their own sensors, such as Canon, will be interested for a good while. They have to amortize the R&D of their own latest sensors, and will more likely attempt to achieve the similar results by their own patentable means.

--
RDKirk

'I know you're smarter than I am. But I think you're making up some of those words.' Rocky Rooster from 'Chicken Run'

Thomas Sapiano · Aug 15, 2002

RDKirk said:
Is that sheer speculation, or do you have actual information about
meetings between Foveon and other camera manufacturers?

Check the link he provided, he was just repeating what it said (from a Foveon FAQ regarding the X3 sensor technology).

ksocool · Aug 16, 2002

It's just not the body you're buying... that's just the razor... the blades are the lenses... in the case of cameras, the good blades seem to cost about 2.5x what the razor costs...

James Kei · Aug 16, 2002

Dear all,

Why waiting Foveon X3, where Panasonic 3CCD RGB DC 3Mpixel is a replacement.

http://www.panasonic.co.jp/products/dvc/DIGICAM/mx5000/3ccd.html

光の三原色RGB（赤・緑・青）それぞれ専用のCCDを搭載した、放送局で使われているビデオカメラと同じ方式の3CCDビデオカメラ。とらえる情報量が多いため、微妙な色の違いまで描き分け、より忠実に、美しく鮮やかに記録します。

3CCD方式ならではの情報量の多さを、さらに4倍にして記録するパナソニック独自の「倍密度画素配列技術」により、300万　静止画記録画素数（2,048×1,496画素）を実現。光学10倍までの美しい動画と静止画を、カメラ1台でお楽しみいただけます。

--
James Kei
http://www.pbase.com/jkei

humpalump · Aug 16, 2002

Jessops UK seem to have a price for the SD-9, so maybe it's not that far away?

See here:

http://www.jessops.com/search/viewproduct.cfm?PRODUCT=SIGSD9&BRAND=&CONTINUE=false&FEATS=&FIRSTPRICE=&KEYWORD=&LEVEL=&MODELNUMBER=&NEWQUERY=True&NODE=481&ORD=ASC&ORDERBY=&QUANTITY=10&REFINE=&SEARCH_FOR=&SEARCHNODE=0&SEARCHURL=dointellisearch.cfm&SECONDPRICE=&SHOWCASEID=&STARTROW=1&SUBS=&WORD_SEARCH=N&

DuraVision · Aug 16, 2002

James Kei said:
Dear all,

Why waiting Foveon X3, where Panasonic 3CCD RGB DC 3Mpixel is a
replacement.

http://www.panasonic.co.jp/products/dvc/DIGICAM/mx5000/3ccd.html

光の三原色RGB（赤・緑・青）それぞれ専用のCCDを搭載した、放送局で使われているビデオカメラと同じ方式の3CCDビデオカメラ。とらえる情報量が多いため、微妙な色の違いまで描き分け、より忠実に、美しく鮮やかに記録します。

3CCD方式ならではの情報量の多さを、さらに4倍にして記録するパナソニック独自の「倍密度画素配列技術」により、300万　静止画記録画素数（2,048×1,496画素）を実現。光学10倍までの美しい動画と静止画を、カメラ1台でお楽しみいただけます。

--
James Kei
http://www.pbase.com/jkei

Dale Cotton · Aug 16, 2002

My guess is that the timing of the X3 announcement was determined by Foveon's technology coup, not by Sigma's near-readiness to go to market. Nikon, Canon, Olympus, etc. have much prior experience engineering digital cameras; Sigma and Contax, none.

Dale Cotton, Canada

GF104420 · Aug 17, 2002

I had the opportunity to meet a Foveon Chief Engineer last week (at a totally non-photo, yet geek-related, function) and he happened to have the new Foveon Sigma camera with him. I took a few shots and then proceeded to ask him what was going on with release, announcements, etc...he told me that (wink, wink) "no others besides Sigma have been ANNOUNCED yet, but keep your eyes on the news". Sounded like it was imminent, but perhaps that is what they are told to say...

But here is where I know I'll get slammed by everyone in this forum, I wasn't totally impressed with either the camera or the image displayed in the LCD after I took a shot. Granted, I just recently rec'd my S2 and absolutely love it, but still, the Sigma seemed even more 'plasticy' than the S2 and a bit slower to take the picture (again, this could've just been the settings, so please take these comments with a grain of salt since i only played with it for about 10 minutes)...perhaps the chip will change all of our 'needs' immedietly after release, but let's just say I wouldn't pre-order one...just my 2c worth...

"have actually seen and tested the new Sigma camera

Dale Cotton said:
My guess is that the timing of the X3 announcement was determined
by Foveon's technology coup, not by Sigma's near-readiness to go to
market. Nikon, Canon, Olympus, etc. have much prior experience
engineering digital cameras; Sigma and Contax, none.

Dale Cotton, Canada

--
BayAreaPhotographer

hokie · Aug 18, 2002

You bring up some good points.

Utility is as important as anything in a camera.

How fast is the shutter, sync and auto-focus....all very, very important.

What is the quality of the glass available and the price.

How reliable is the technology? Are the first generation foveons going to be spending as much time in the shop as taking pictures?

How durable is the construction. If it starts to get too humid, dusty, whatever am I going to have to run for cover with my expensive tech toy?

My feeling is that in this world of super hype if the tech was even close to ready enough with a product launch only 3-6 months away we would be seeing more samples and talk from the major manufacturers.

Meanwhile..all these wonderful photo ops are just coming and going.

But it is interesting reading..what little there is so far.

Lisa Leigh said:
But here is where I know I'll get slammed by everyone in this
forum, I wasn't totally impressed with either the camera or the
image displayed in the LCD after I took a shot. Granted, I just
recently rec'd my S2 and absolutely love it, but still, the Sigma
seemed even more 'plasticy' than the S2 and a bit slower to take
the picture (again, this could've just been the settings, so please
take these comments with a grain of salt since i only played with
it for about 10 minutes)...perhaps the chip will change all of our
'needs' immedietly after release, but let's just say I wouldn't
pre-order one...just my 2c worth...

"have actually seen and tested the new Sigma camera

Dale Cotton said:

My guess is that the timing of the X3 announcement was determined
by Foveon's technology coup, not by Sigma's near-readiness to go to
market. Nikon, Canon, Olympus, etc. have much prior experience
engineering digital cameras; Sigma and Contax, none.

Dale Cotton, Canada

Click to expand...

--
BayAreaPhotographer

zettlers #105592 · Aug 18, 2002

Search the Internet for Foveon – and You will find the same material everywhere – all based on press releases from Foveon. You will have a hard time trying to find editorial stuff on this image sensor. Media at it's worst this is.

Regards
Leifilund

Craig Smith said:
Back in Feb. 2002, Foveon unvailed their revolutionary X3, the much
ballyhooed "holy grail" of image sensors that can capture red,
green and blue at each pixel. Everything I've read and the images
I've downloaded indicates that, pixel for pixel, this thing blows
away every other image sensor out there including the S2, D100 and
D60. Foveon says that their little 3.5MP sensor approaches medium
format film! I've read that a full frame 35mm X3 sensor could
approach 4X5 film quality! Mindboggling! So far only Sigma has
taken the bait with their as of yet unreleased SD-9. Why havn't the
pro-DSLR makers (Nikon, Canon and Fuji) shown an interest in this
technology?

RDKirk · Aug 18, 2002

Thomas Sapiano said:
Thomas Sapiano said:

Is that sheer speculation, or do you have actual information about
meetings between Foveon and other camera manufacturers?

Click to expand...

Check the link he provided, he was just repeating what it said
(from a Foveon FAQ regarding the X3 sensor technology).

Heh, okay, so it's not "sheer speculation," at least not on his part. He's reporting what a Foveon publicist has said.

But from a Foveon publicity spin, "actively engaged with other major digital camera manufacturers" may only mean "we've been leaving voicemail with their receptionists and handing our card to their doormen."

If there was anything about this from a major camera manufacturer, I'd be seriously intrigued.

--
RDKirk

'I know you're smarter than I am. But I think you're making up some of those words.' Rocky Rooster from 'Chicken Run'

rick decker · Aug 18, 2002

Could it have been something it wasn't? If I were Sigma/Foveon, I wouldn't have anyone walking around with a prototype camera - especially the way they are guarding everything. They either have the greatest story on earth and want a huge splash or the biggest flop.

Z (is real) · Aug 18, 2002

rick decker said:
Could it have been something it wasn't? If I were Sigma/Foveon, I
wouldn't have anyone walking around with a prototype camera -
especially the way they are guarding everything. They either have
the greatest story on earth and want a huge splash or the biggest
flop.

It is an announced product so walking around with a prototype is no big deal. You'll note Lisa didn't get to take any files home, or it sounds like even see them on a full screen display. That's par for the course with preproduction cameras.

Lisa's comments on the camera don't surprise me. The Sigma body simply isn't going to be upto the standards of a Canon or Nikon product. (How many people are out there raving about the SA9 film body?) Foveon remains a potentially very important technology with an unpredictable realization in products.

Photokina is just around the corner. May it be an interesting year!

-Z-

Erik Magnuson · Aug 18, 2002

RDKirk said:
Heh, okay, so it's not "sheer speculation," at least not on his
part. He's reporting what a Foveon publicist has said.

The key part of that quote was an explicit denial of the rumour that Sigma has an exclusive deal (said unsubstantiated rumour was being repeated in the post I replied to.)

RDKirk said:
But from a Foveon publicity spin, "actively engaged with other
major digital camera manufacturers" may only mean "we've been
leaving voicemail with their receptionists and handing our card to
their doormen."

Of course. However, if someone does return their calls, there appears to be no contractual barrier to supplying parts.

RDKirk said:
If there was anything about this from a major camera
manufacturer, I'd be seriously intrigued.

There have been other hints dropped by Foveon that someone will announce a F10-based camera (e.g. a still-video hybrid) in the not too distant future--perhaps even Photokina--and expect it to be shipping by next spring. (But this is sheer speculation.)

--
Erik

Where's the Foveon X3?

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