Just why is an MF back that much better?

riddell

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I don't want to enter the MF vs 1ds type arguments, its been done many times.

and in my opinion an MF backed output blows the 1ds away. Its a dynamic punch of impact.

This question is more just why is that?

No matter what I do that 1ds image, wtih lighting or in post, great and unfaultable as it is, still lacks the punch and impact of that of the MF backed image.
 
Having used both, It's gotten to the point where the Canon 1Ds series can deliver exceptional results that will likely cover all but the most depending needs. Since so much of the final image depends on the person behind the camera, and behind the computer, I think that DSLR style cameras are pushing medium format's out of the market.
There certainly is a market for MF shooting, but I think it's shrinking.
 
There certainly is a market for MF shooting, but I think it's shrinking.
On the contrary, MF sensors are becoming larger (FF MF) and are getting far more pixels than FF dSLRs. Aren't there 60 and 70MP MF digital cameras/backs now? That's nearly 3 times as many pixels as the best FF dSLRs with much larger sensors.

So if you're only doing 16x20 prints or smaller, you'll be fine sticking with dSLRs. But if you want higher quality larger prints MF will always be better.
 
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The MF backs are growing in resolution, but the DSLR's have reached a point to where there are not too many applications that they cannot fill.

Billboard, large store displays, large portrait work, pretty much anything where view camera control is not needed can all be covered with smaller, faster, cheaper equipment.
 
The RAW conversion software used can make a big difference in apparent image quality. Not necessary at the pixel peeping level, but certainly in the overall distribution of tones.

Capture One software is often used on medium format digital images.

Adobe ACR often produces inferior results without tweaking, and I prefer Nikon's own RAW conversion.
 
But if you want higher quality larger prints MF will always be better.
"Better" in a completely arbitrary sense. Print quality depends on far more than the number of pixels involved; at certain sizes and viewing distances (read: 99% of the time), the difference is impossible to discern.
 
Medium format backs do not have anti-aliasing filters. At times, this can lead to moire patterns, but is also much sharper than we become accustomed to with small-format DSLRs.

The high dynamic range, 12 stops or more, is superior to small format sensors and most (if not all) film. This results in a very natural appearance to subjects with a large dynamic range, especially shots in nature and architecture, without grain, noise or blocking.

The downside is related to medium format gear in general. It is larger, heavier and slower to use than a DSLR. The range of lenses is far smaller and zoom lenses nearly unknown. All this pales when one compares the cost of the high-end DSLRs to even the lowest level digital back. While I might cringe a bit before spending $1200 to $1800 on a Nikon lens, that would be a bargain for many Hasselblad lenses, and comparable to used prices.
 
Capture One software is often used on medium format digital images.
Interesting. I use Canons DPP software, and bar a few minor things I'm generally pretty happy with it.

Are you suggesting that Capture one, could help that much?

The reason I posted the question in the first place, is that MF is the results from MF definity superior, even when printed at A4. Its that capture of colour, tonal range, contrast and sweeping hues.

Tweaking curves etc. from a 1ds, just doesn't seem to get there. I know the 'limitations' of an MF system, buit also adore the output.
 
This question is more just why is that?
No idea .. but one can easy see it, that's for sure.

Grass looks like grass - type of thing - and it's been like that for a very long time now...

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1014&message=4422025&q=ampimage&qf=m

Not all pixels are equal... I guess is the answer... because what you are seeing, as got little to do with the numbers.

--
Cheers,
Ashley.
http://www.ampimage.com
http://www.ashleymorrison.com
 
But if you want higher quality larger prints MF will always be better.
"Better" in a completely arbitrary sense. Print quality depends on
far more than the number of pixels involved; at certain sizes and
Ok, "Fine Art" and "Gallery Quality". Where print sizes are large and they cannot be blurry or fuzzy when viewed close up. Happy now?
 
Not all pixels are equal... I guess is the answer... because what you
are seeing, as got little to do with the numbers.
Yes. I know and totally agree with that.

But is it actually the sensor thats the great thing here? or the lens? or the bit depth? or the RAW conversion? or the lenses?

Or just a combination of all of the above?
 
i'll add one thing:

for landscape architecture the mf back let you use some beautifuland costy camera like silvestri and arca swiss with amazing lens from rodenstock and schneider that let you play with plenty of movement, no distortion and incredible clarity.
If you hoot architecture and want the best output this is the only way to work.

T and shift lenses from canon and nikon are just good when completel shifted but nothing to write home about.
Medium format backs do not have anti-aliasing filters. At times, this
can lead to moire patterns, but is also much sharper than we become
accustomed to with small-format DSLRs.

The high dynamic range, 12 stops or more, is superior to small format
sensors and most (if not all) film. This results in a very natural
appearance to subjects with a large dynamic range, especially shots
in nature and architecture, without grain, noise or blocking.

The downside is related to medium format gear in general. It is
larger, heavier and slower to use than a DSLR. The range of lenses is
far smaller and zoom lenses nearly unknown. All this pales when one
compares the cost of the high-end DSLRs to even the lowest level
digital back. While I might cringe a bit before spending $1200 to
$1800 on a Nikon lens, that would be a bargain for many Hasselblad
lenses, and comparable to used prices.
--
http://www.pbase.com/jon1976
 
But is it actually the sensor thats the great thing here? or the
lens? or the bit depth? or the RAW conversion? or the lenses?

Or just a combination of all of the above?
"Why does a brown cow give white milk if it only eats green grass? That's the burning question..."

After listening to guys debate for years over this on various Forums, I conclude: it's probably all of the above and then some.

But does it really matter ?

For me the answer is No.
It is what it is - and as a tool, I simply make use of it's advantages.

--
Cheers,
Ashley.
http://www.ashleymorrison.com
 
Hi,
The answer is much simpler than you would guess.

On technical issues it's a big difference:
1. higher bitdepth, meaning smoother transistions
2. no AA filter, so razor sharp images out of the camera
3. Higher dynamic range
4. very clean iso 50-100
5. Real ISO25/50
6. With some systems higher sync speeds (up to 1/1000)
7. Larger sensor so better control over DOF
8. better glass, shooting wide open is sharp
9. better color due to better profiles/sensor/combination/software
10. much better tethered shooting solutions

In the end however it's all about workflow.

MP's are not important anymore, with 22MP you can do most work without a problem, maybe if you need to crop alot or are just loving to zoom in a 56-60MP back is great but in reality most people don't need it.

For fashion and landscapes it can be a big plus, due the higher MP count there is less chance of moire and for landscapes more detail is always nice.

Moire by the way is in most MF software removed in seconds, some people are naming this one of the disadvatages of MF but also here the rule is, try it with the original software like Leaf Capture for Leaf, Phocus for Hasselblad and Capture One for Phase one, all have moire filtering that work very well due to perfect coorperation with their own cameras.

Back on workflow.
I shoot with several MF systems and several DSLR's.

For the quick work, low light, action stuff the DSLR is wonderful, however when shooting in difficult situations and you need direct confirmation the tethered solutions of most MF cameras are a great tool.

I'm always shooting to a laptop for important work, when I use a DSLR I'm hitting the buffer sometimes slowing me down, with a MF camera (although you're shooting less frames per second) there often is NO buffer, in other words you can keep on shooting untill the HDD is full.
This is a BIG plus for doing fashion work.

Some people will say the handling of the camera is bad, or you need to shoot from a tripod, those people life in the past.

With the modern MF cameras like the Leaf AFi, Hasselblad, Mamiya/phase one systems you can shoot handheld and AF is slower than a DSLR but for most work more than adequate, and MF is no problem at all due to the very large and bright viewfinders, also being able to use a WLF is a big plus for portrait and fashion.

In the end it all boils down to what you need.

If you need to push the files MF will give you MUCH more play than any DSLR file, if you want to shoot, do some color correction and deliver a DSLR will work fine.

It's horses for courses.....
A DSLR is good in almost anything now a days.
A MF is PERFECT for some work.

For example.

When fighting the sun outside a MF can drop to ISO25 or ISO50 use a higher sync speed and still deliver a picture with a wonderful DOF but with an incredible ammount of light.

This was shot in the FULL sunlight with a flash overpowering the sun by 2-3 stops making it look like a studio shot, dropping to ISO25 did the tick here, I could even stay at the 1/125 that camera gives me.



You should decided which camera fits your needs and use that "tool" don't look at MP only and judge a system, I use both systems and love both and could not live without both.

Greetings,
Frank
--
http://www.frankdoorhof.com
http://www.doorhof.nl/blog
 
I think not all these reasons are real reasons.
Hi,
The answer is much simpler than you would guess.

On technical issues it's a big difference:
1. higher bitdepth, meaning smoother transistions
From discussions on this I understand that there only need to be enough bits to cover the dynamic range of a pixel - any more bits will not give smoother transitions
2. no AA filter, so razor sharp images out of the camera
But also aliasing, and false detail. This is interesting question, do you like more false detail or less real detail?
3. Higher dynamic range
This is same as points below
4. very clean iso 50-100
5. Real ISO25/50
These not advantages in themselves. Real advantage, I have been told, is that MF sensors can collect more photons, so make less noise, but not very efficient so need low ISO to get exposure.
6. With some systems higher sync speeds (up to 1/1000)
Not intrinsic to MF, just way MF cameras have evolved, with lens shutters. Smaller cameras with lens shutters could be even faster.
7. Larger sensor so better control over DOF
We discuss this on other thread, 35mm FF has best control of DOF, because f/1.2 lenses available.
8. better glass, shooting wide open is sharp
More accurate, format needs less resolution from glass. MF lenses usually not as sharp as 35mm lenses (compare Zeiss lenses, 35mm ones are sharper)
9. better color due to better profiles/sensor/combination/software
This very subjective.
10. much better tethered shooting solutions
Maybe. I don't shoot tethered (can be a risk in this part of the world) so I wouldnt judge.

--
Asqeez
 
"From discussions on this I understand that there only need to be enough bits to cover the dynamic range of a pixel - any more bits will not give smoother transitions"

There is a common misconception that each bit represents a whole stop. Actually, greater bit depth does nothing but give smoother transitions. There are 4x as many steps between pure black and pure white with 16 bits than 14 bits. Dynamic range is improved by low noise at low levels, hence how close you can get to pure black and still see details. The bit depth has nothing to do with it.
 

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