PS color management settings

Hi

When printing from photoshop 7 to epson 870, is it best to set the color management policy in Print-with preview menu to the ICC epson 870 generic profile and then set to "ICC" in custom setting in printer driver OR to leave Printer management setting on in PS Print with Preview and leave printer settings in automatic mode in printer driver?

It seems to me that in the first option, there is no way to alter color settings in printer driver and in the second option the epson is doing all the management.

What do you all recommend is best approach?

shc

scott chandler said:

What do you all recommend is best approach?

Click to expand...

Here's what I like to do. I like to use the "Covert to Profile" command on a duplicate of the document I'm ready to print. I can see in the dialog which rendering intent I like best (usually Relative Colorimetric but sometimes Perceptual). Now after I apply the profile, I'm in output space (the file is ready for the printer). But based on what I'm now seeing, I may want to do a slight tweak (pull a curve or whatever). Then I send the color managed data to the printer and insure that NO profiling is going on in the driver! You don't want a double dose of profiles or you'll get one ugly print! The duplicate file insures the original isn't touched (I may want to print it to a dozen different printers using a dozen different profiles). And IF I think I want to print the file again, it's all prep'ed with the output profile and tweaks, ready to print. Disk space is cheap. Be sure to save the file with a name that indicates what print conditions it's for (although the file will have an embedded profile which tells me that).
--
Andrew Rodney
http://www.digitaldog.net

Andrew Rodney said:

scott chandler said:

What do you all recommend is best approach?

Click to expand...

Here's what I like to do. I like to use the "Covert to Profile"
command on a duplicate of the document I'm ready to print. I can
see in the dialog which rendering intent I like best (usually
Relative Colorimetric but sometimes Perceptual). Now after I apply
the profile, I'm in output space (the file is ready for the
printer). But based on what I'm now seeing, I may want to do a
slight tweak (pull a curve or whatever). Then I send the color
managed data to the printer and insure that NO profiling is going
on in the driver! You don't want a double dose of profiles or
you'll get one ugly print! The duplicate file insures the original
isn't touched (I may want to print it to a dozen different printers
using a dozen different profiles). And IF I think I want to print
the file again, it's all prep'ed with the output profile and
tweaks, ready to print. Disk space is cheap. Be sure to save the
file with a name that indicates what print conditions it's for
(although the file will have an embedded profile which tells me
that).
--
Andrew Rodney
http://www.digitaldog.net

Click to expand...

Andrew thanks.

So according to the above

1. In PS print preview menu i should set the the Document space to the copy which is now Epson 870 (adobe 98 converted to epson 870 profile)

2. Print space to epson 870

and in epson driver set software to "Automatic" or do i specify 'ICC" in custom menu? Does "automatic" turn off color management profiling? I am still not clear exactly what setting should be made in epson driver to turn off profiling.

shc

Scott,

When you converted to the printer profile in PS, as Andrew said, you had already taken care of assigning the printer profile. You need to select "no color management" in the driver to ensure that what you did in PS is what you get when you print. The automatic setting will give you funky results, and the icc selection might double profile the print, which will mess your results up, as well. By following the steps Andrew provided, you are basically taking care of everything before you send it to the printer. You don't want the driver to do anything but send the job to the printer... Plain and simple.

Good luck!

DigiMon

scott chandler said:

Andrew Rodney said:

scott chandler said:

What do you all recommend is best approach?

Click to expand...

Here's what I like to do. I like to use the "Covert to Profile"
command on a duplicate of the document I'm ready to print. I can
see in the dialog which rendering intent I like best (usually
Relative Colorimetric but sometimes Perceptual). Now after I apply
the profile, I'm in output space (the file is ready for the
printer). But based on what I'm now seeing, I may want to do a
slight tweak (pull a curve or whatever). Then I send the color
managed data to the printer and insure that NO profiling is going
on in the driver! You don't want a double dose of profiles or
you'll get one ugly print! The duplicate file insures the original
isn't touched (I may want to print it to a dozen different printers
using a dozen different profiles). And IF I think I want to print
the file again, it's all prep'ed with the output profile and
tweaks, ready to print. Disk space is cheap. Be sure to save the
file with a name that indicates what print conditions it's for
(although the file will have an embedded profile which tells me
that).
--
Andrew Rodney
http://www.digitaldog.net

Click to expand...

Andrew thanks.

So according to the above

1. In PS print preview menu i should set the the Document space to
the copy which is now Epson 870 (adobe 98 converted to epson 870
profile)

2. Print space to epson 870

and in epson driver set software to "Automatic" or do i specify
'ICC" in custom menu? Does "automatic" turn off color management
profiling? I am still not clear exactly what setting should be made
in epson driver to turn off profiling.

shc

Click to expand...

See
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1003&message=3196512

I describe how to set things up on Macs. It has to be very similar on PCs. You can do profiles two ways but should only due one at a time. If you apply the profiles twice, you will get a magenta cast on flesh tones.

scott chandler said:

Hi

When printing from photoshop 7 to epson 870, is it best to set the
color management policy in Print-with preview menu to the ICC epson
870 generic profile and then set to "ICC" in custom setting in
printer driver OR to leave Printer management setting on in PS
Print with Preview and leave printer settings in automatic mode in
printer driver?

It seems to me that in the first option, there is no way to alter
color settings in printer driver and in the second option the epson
is doing all the management.

What do you all recommend is best approach?

shc

Click to expand...

scott chandler said:

So according to the above

1. In PS print preview menu i should set the the Document space to
the copy which is now Epson 870 (adobe 98 converted to epson 870
profile)

Click to expand...

Yes, if you are working on a copy that has been color managed (you applied the profile "manually" in Photoshop's "Convert to Profile".

scott chandler said:

2. Print space to epson 870
and in epson driver set software to "Automatic" or do i specify
'ICC" in custom menu?

Click to expand...

Neither. First, ICC in custom menu has the DRIVER apply the profile. So you'd get double profiling. Also, ICC in the Custom menu doesn't use Photoshop to apply the profile so you don't get Black Point Compensation, you don't get to use the ACE engine and in some cases, this part of the driver gets buggy. So always stay away from the ICC area in the driver.

IF you use Epson's canned profiles, the correct setting in the driver is "No Color Adjustment" as that was how Epson set the driver when they generated the profiles you get. You need to set the driver the same way (NCA).

scott chandler said:

Does "automatic" turn off color management
profiling?

Click to expand...

No but it certainly changes the behavior of the driver and how you get output. The big problem with NCA is it isn't linear and you get too much ink delivery (the new slider in the 2200 helps a bit). IF you want the fullest color gamut the printer can provide, you have to use NCA. But you'll end up, with some paper options losing some shadow detail. With either Automatic or PhotoRealistic used to print a target to make a profile, you lose some color gamut but gain some tonal range. It's a compromise. What we need is the NCA setting to be linear (which I'm hammering on Epson Japan to do and it may happen some day).

The settings in the driver have to be the same as how the profile target was generated. That's the bottom line!
--
Andrew Rodney
http://www.digitaldog.net

scott chandler said:

So according to the above

1. In PS print preview menu i should set the the Document space to
the copy which is now Epson 870 (adobe 98 converted to epson 870
profile)

Click to expand...

Yes, if you are working on a copy that has been color managed (you applied the profile "manually" in Photoshop's "Convert to Profile".

scott chandler said:

2. Print space to epson 870
and in epson driver set software to "Automatic" or do i specify
'ICC" in custom menu?

Click to expand...

Neither. First, ICC in custom menu has the DRIVER apply the profile. So you'd get double profiling. Also, ICC in the Custom menu doesn't use Photoshop to apply the profile so you don't get Black Point Compensation, you don't get to use the ACE engine and in some cases, this part of the driver gets buggy. So always stay away from the ICC area in the driver.

IF you use Epson's canned profiles, the correct setting in the driver is "No Color Adjustment" as that was how Epson set the driver when they generated the profiles you get. You need to set the driver the same way (NCA).

scott chandler said:

Does "automatic" turn off color management
profiling?

Click to expand...

No but it certainly changes the behavior of the driver and how you get output. The big problem with NCA is it isn't linear and you get too much ink delivery (the new slider in the 2200 helps a bit). IF you want the fullest color gamut the printer can provide, you have to use NCA. But you'll end up, with some paper options losing some shadow detail. With either Automatic or PhotoRealistic used to print a target to make a profile, you lose some color gamut but gain some tonal range. It's a compromise. What we need is the NCA setting to be linear (which I'm hammering on Epson Japan to do and it may happen some day).

The settings in the driver have to be the same as how the profile target was generated. That's the bottom line!
--
Andrew Rodney
http://www.digitaldog.net

Andrew -- Thanks for helping clarify some of my Epson driver questions.

I now have a question about the "Proof Setup" options in Photoshop 7. I'm on a Mac, Sys 9.2.2, using Epson 1270, canned profiles.

When I first go to View > > Proof Setup, the setting is always "Working CMYK". I doubt this is what I want. All I'm looking for is for the image on my Spyder-calibrated monitor to look the same as what I'll get when I print to the 1270. Your info on the drivers and converting to profiles, etc. cleared up part of the equation -- but I'm still not clear on why and how I should be using Proof Setup. For instance, should I use a Custom setup, Macintosh RGB, or Monitor RGB? I would especially like to have an automatic default setting so I don't have to think about it any more.

And, in Photoshop Nirvana, it would be great to understand the process well enough that I could "proof" an image on the 1270, then turn that image around and send it to a professional lab to print on photo paper, and have a reasonable chance that the proof and final print will look roughly the same. (I know, I know -- labs are the wild card, but at this point I don't have enough confidence in MY settings to KNOW that I'm doing my corrections properly.)

If you could explain how Proof Setup is used, it would be appreciated.

Thanks

Norfolk said:

When I first go to View > > Proof Setup, the setting is always
"Working CMYK". I doubt this is what I want. >

Click to expand...

That is the soft proof for the CMYK profile you have loaded in your Color Settings (prefered CMYK conversion) and no, you don't wan that.

Norfolk said:

All I'm looking for is
for the image on my Spyder-calibrated monitor to look the same as
what I'll get when I print to the 1270. Your info on the drivers
and converting to profiles, etc. cleared up part of the equation --
but I'm still not clear on why and how I should be using Proof
Setup.

Click to expand...

Load the output profile for the Epson you are printing to. All output profiles are visible in the popup menu.

Norfolk said:

And, in Photoshop Nirvana, it would be great to understand the
process well enough that I could "proof" an image on the 1270, then
turn that image around and send it to a professional lab to print
on photo paper, and have a reasonable chance that the proof and
final print will look roughly the same.

Click to expand...

What makes you think that output on your Epson will in any way be similar to the output device from your lab? You can make the Epson simulate that other device but you need a profile for that device. Then you do a conversion to that Lab device. From there you convert from that Lab device to the Epson (convert to profile) and if both profiles are good, the Epson will simulate the output from the Lab printer. BUT, the Lab printer has to have a smaller color gamut than the Epson!

--
Andrew Rodney
http://www.digitaldog.net

Andrew,

excellent! thanks a lot.

Recently, i looked over a new version of Blatner and fraser's photoshop book. They mentioned that for certain Epson printers which PS does NOT have a specific ICC profile option for individual papers for that printer, that the best prints come out when the PS printer space is set for PRINTER management (instead of a printer icc and the epson driver is allowed to do its own management. The epson 870 ICC profile is generic in the icc profile menu, there is no option for specific papers or dpi, etc.

What is your opinion about that?

shc

Andrew Rodney said:

What makes you think that output on your Epson will in any way be
similar to the output device from your lab? You can make the Epson
simulate that other device but you need a profile for that device.
Then you do a conversion to that Lab device. From there you convert
from that Lab device to the Epson (convert to profile) and if both
profiles are good, the Epson will simulate the output from the Lab
printer. BUT, the Lab printer has to have a smaller color gamut
than the Epson!

Click to expand...

Thanks, Andrew, for your amazingly quick reply.

In my question, I was not expecting that a print made using the 1270 and Epson's profile for a specific Epson paper would look like what I'd get from a pro lab.

How does this sound? --

(Norfolk pauses, realizing he doesn't understand the process well enough to even put a question together...)

OK, how about this scenario? --

What I'd like to do is use the 1270 to proof the prints I'll be eventually getting from my lab. If I can get a profile of their printer, would I then be able to open my file, convert to the lab's profile, do any color corrections, etc. and then see on MY MONITOR how that print will look when it comes back from the lab?

And, how would I then be able to use the 1270 to create a "proof" that looks like what the lab would return if I sent them that exact file?

This is where all the interaction of drivers, profiles, Proof Setup, etc. gets confusing. Too many variables. Is there a single, unified way to set up an "environment" is PS7 which could be labeled, for example, "Lab", "1270" etc. -- where EVERYTHING about the various settings could be predefined, and then accessed via a pull down menu? Right now, I always seem to think I've got maybe 8 of 10 settings right, but that I'm forgetting something. Can all this be handled in an Action?

I'm sure you get tired of explaining all this...

Thanks again

Norfolk said:

What I'd like to do is use the 1270 to proof the prints I'll be
eventually getting from my lab. If I can get a profile of their
printer, would I then be able to open my file, convert to the lab's
profile, do any color corrections, etc. and then see on MY MONITOR
how that print will look when it comes back from the lab?

Click to expand...

You need the lab's profile (and it has to be accurate) then just create a custom soft proof setup with that profile. IF you display is profiled accuractly, you'll see what your file (in a Working Space like Adobe RGB) will look like to their printer.
The Epson doesn't come into play here at all.

IF you want to print out a proof using the Epson and have the Epson simulate the lab print, the lab printer has to have a color gamut that is no larger than the Epson (or how else can the Epson simulate a color it can't reproduce?). You have to have a profile for both printers. Then you can take the file in output space for the lab and convert to the Epson and make a print. It will be "close."

Norfolk said:

This is where all the interaction of drivers, profiles, Proof
Setup, etc. gets confusing. Too many variables. Is there a single,
unified way to set up an "environment" is PS7 which could be
labeled, for example, "Lab", "1270" etc. -- where EVERYTHING about
the various settings could be predefined, and then accessed via a
pull down menu?

Click to expand...

To the Lab printer, yes. You need to make a custom Proof Setup with the lab's profile. Again, the Epson has NO effect here. It's only for previewing the files going to the lab.
--
Andrew Rodney
http://www.digitaldog.net

scott chandler wrote:

If you don't have a profile, convert the files to AppleRGB and send them through the driver using the Automatic setting. Not as good as a profile but betterh than nothing.
--
Andrew Rodney
http://www.digitaldog.net

I think that the generic profile is a dummy that routes to the correct profile given the media type. I get the identical prints on different media by using either the generic profile or the specific profile in the printer space box. If the profile was truly generic, this would not occur.

scott chandler said:

Andrew,

excellent! thanks a lot.

Recently, i looked over a new version of Blatner and fraser's
photoshop book. They mentioned that for certain Epson printers
which PS does NOT have a specific ICC profile option for individual
papers for that printer, that the best prints come out when the PS
printer space is set for PRINTER management (instead of a printer
icc and the epson driver is allowed to do its own management. The
epson 870 ICC profile is generic in the icc profile menu, there is
no option for specific papers or dpi, etc.

What is your opinion about that?

shc

Click to expand...

Leon Wittwer said:

I think that the generic profile is a dummy that routes to the
correct profile given the media type.

Click to expand...

If you mean the profile called "Epson Standard" found in the driver itself, that's correct.

--
Andrew Rodney
http://www.digitaldog.net