Another pc building thread...

Sven Hedlund

Senior Member
Messages
1,729
Reaction score
2
Location
Genarp, SE
I need a new PC for photo editing, but I need some help. Any insight, thoughts etc. are much appreciated:

The main purpose of the PC is photo editing (Adobe PS and LR2, possibly Nicon Caputer NX2) – I want a reasonable speed for these programs, but I don’t want to pay anything extra for features that I don’t need (e.g. gaming). I also want the computer to last a couple of years, i.e. upgrading to next version of PS should not force me to buy a new computer.

Based on the above, I am pretty sure that I want
  • Processor Intel i7 920
  • 8 Gb Internal memory
  • GC: Some kind of NVidia with OpenGL 2.0 support and at least 128 Mb
  • Windows 7
With these loose requirements, I want 1) reliable components and 2) no unnecessary bottlenecks 3) as cheap a solution as possible. That means I would like your recommendations of the following (brand, type, and speed):
  • Motherboard
  • Graphics Card
  • Memory
  • Hd – is one enough, or do I need an extra for swap even if I have 8 gigs of internal memory?
  • Power supply
What else do I need to know?

--
Sven Hedlund
 
You'll want at least 2 hard drives so that your data isn't on the system drive otherwise you'll eventually experience quite massive system slowdowns and loss of responsiveness as your C: drive fills up. This is the main reason PCs get really slow and owners get the upgrade bug after a couple of years!

Just try and keep C: for Windows (or whatever operating system) and program installs. Everything else on another internal drive. If you then want to be able to easily backup precious data you'll need a third drive, either internal or external.
 
I need a new PC for photo editing, but I need some help. Any insight,
thoughts etc. are much appreciated:

The main purpose of the PC is photo editing (Adobe PS and LR2,
possibly Nicon Caputer NX2) – I want a reasonable speed for these
programs, but I don’t want to pay anything extra for features that I
don’t need (e.g. gaming). I also want the computer to last a couple
of years, i.e. upgrading to next version of PS should not force me to
buy a new computer.

Based on the above, I am pretty sure that I want
  • Processor Intel i7 920
  • 8 Gb Internal memory
  • GC: Some kind of NVidia with OpenGL 2.0 support and at least 128 Mb
  • Windows 7
With these loose requirements, I want 1) reliable components and 2)
no unnecessary bottlenecks 3) as cheap a solution as possible. That
means I would like your recommendations of the following (brand,
type, and speed):
I am in process of building the system (almost finished) with some old components.
  • Motherboard
I am in process of building the system (almost finished) with some old components.

Asus p6t deluxe V2. less than $300.
  • Graphics Card
ATI 4670 (Sapphire) with 1gb of memory. $80
6Gb of Patriot Viper DDR3 1600. About $100 or less
  • Hd – is one enough, or do I need an extra for swap even if I have 8
gigs of internal memory?
I am using Wester Digital 150GB 10000rpm (older model) for OS (Vista 64)
and Seagate 1.5TB for data. Plus maybe Hitachi 1TB for more data.
  • Power supply
Here you have to decide on your own. If you decide to overclock like I do you need strong PS. At least one strong 12v rail with 23 or more amps. Pref 30 amps.
Or one rail PS with 12v 38+ amps. At least real 600w total.
What else do I need to know?
I am overclocking i7 920 close to 4.2Ghz (on water) and getting Raw 5D2 files converted and saved at around 1.5 seconds per file. That is extremely fast.
--
Sven Hedlund
--
Eugene

The only time a smaller sensor with the same pixel count is superior to a larger sensor (aka higher pixel density) is when you are focal-length limited.

Lee Jay

 
  • Motherboard
I am in process of building the system (almost finished) with some
old components.

Asus p6t deluxe V2. less than $300.
I will probably not overclock. Would this mobo be overkill then? Any other advantage over, say P6T SE?
  • Graphics Card
ATI 4670 (Sapphire) with 1gb of memory. $80
Does PS and LR use all that GC memory? Will they be faster with this than e.g. 256 Mb?
6Gb of Patriot Viper DDR3 1600. About $100 or less
  • Hd – is one enough, or do I need an extra for swap even if I have 8
gigs of internal memory?
I am using Wester Digital 150GB 10000rpm (older model) for OS (Vista 64)
and Seagate 1.5TB for data. Plus maybe Hitachi 1TB for more data.
  • Power supply
Here you have to decide on your own. If you decide to overclock like
I do you need strong PS. At least one strong 12v rail with 23 or more
amps. Pref 30 amps.
Or one rail PS with 12v 38+ amps. At least real 600w total.
Again, if not overclocking, is there any PSU you would recommend?
What else do I need to know?
I am overclocking i7 920 close to 4.2Ghz (on water) and getting Raw
5D2 files converted and saved at around 1.5 seconds per file. That is
extremely fast.
It seems like I would have to spend a lot more time on tuning my computer than I want to for overclocking, so I will probably not do it this time.

Thanks a lot for your help!

--
Sven Hedlund
 
Regarding power supply rating, I would suggest you try a site like this to calculate the amount of power actually needed for a particular system. In most cases people are wasting money buying power capacity they don't need.
http://www.antec.outervision.com/
--
To Err is Human, To really foul things up you need a computer.
 
That calculator is for reference only, you still need to know what you are buying.
Some claim high wattage but all the watts are on 3v-5v rails.
--
Eugene

The only time a smaller sensor with the same pixel count is superior to a larger sensor (aka higher pixel density) is when you are focal-length limited.

Lee Jay

 
  • Motherboard
I am in process of building the system (almost finished) with some
old components.

Asus p6t deluxe V2. less than $300.
I will probably not overclock. Would this mobo be overkill then? Any
other advantage over, say P6T SE?
I think SE is small form factor so they must of got rid of some features.
  • Graphics Card
ATI 4670 (Sapphire) with 1gb of memory. $80
Does PS and LR use all that GC memory? Will they be faster with this
than e.g. 256 Mb?
I don't know. But $80 never killed anyone.
6Gb of Patriot Viper DDR3 1600. About $100 or less
  • Hd – is one enough, or do I need an extra for swap even if I have 8
gigs of internal memory?
I am using Wester Digital 150GB 10000rpm (older model) for OS (Vista 64)
and Seagate 1.5TB for data. Plus maybe Hitachi 1TB for more data.
  • Power supply
Here you have to decide on your own. If you decide to overclock like
I do you need strong PS. At least one strong 12v rail with 23 or more
amps. Pref 30 amps.
Or one rail PS with 12v 38+ amps. At least real 600w total.
Again, if not overclocking, is there any PSU you would recommend?
I don't know how much you want to spend but
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817153083
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817153103
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817256027
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817256046
What else do I need to know?
I am overclocking i7 920 close to 4.2Ghz (on water) and getting Raw
5D2 files converted and saved at around 1.5 seconds per file. That is
extremely fast.
It seems like I would have to spend a lot more time on tuning my
computer than I want to for overclocking, so I will probably not do
it this time.

Thanks a lot for your help!

--
Sven Hedlund
--
Eugene

The only time a smaller sensor with the same pixel count is superior to a larger sensor (aka higher pixel density) is when you are focal-length limited.

Lee Jay

 
Just to add a suggestion, if you want to add a SATA optical drive such as a Blu-ray burner, you will need a SATA connection so if needed, you can use one of the HD SATA connections if none other is available. I ran into this problem when upgrading my DVD burner to Bul-ray on my older mac.
Will
 
A little off-topic, but...
You'll want at least 2 hard drives so that your data isn't on the
system drive otherwise you'll eventually experience quite massive
system slowdowns and loss of responsiveness as your C: drive fills
up. This is the main reason PCs get really slow and owners get the
upgrade bug after a couple of years!
I don't know that is the MAIN reason. You are right, any hard drive that is more than 70% full is due for a cleanup or replacement.

But having a hard drive that full is not inevitable. What IS inevitable is

1. Excess software loading at startup. Some are necessary, like antivirus and firewall software. But a lot is not (Adobe Acrobat? QuickTime? MS Office?)
2. Fragmented hard drive.
3. Unnecessary registry entries.

Take care of those, and your computer will run like new (nearly.) For the registry and startup, I use EasyCleaner for the XP machines, CCleaner for the Vistas. For defragging I use either PerfectDisk and Disktrix Ultimate Defrag.

Karl
 
You'll want at least 2 hard drives so that your data isn't on the
system drive otherwise you'll eventually experience quite massive
system slowdowns and loss of responsiveness as your C: drive fills
up. This is the main reason PCs get really slow and owners get the
upgrade bug after a couple of years!
I don't know that is the MAIN reason. You are right, any hard drive
that is more than 70% full is due for a cleanup or replacement.

But having a hard drive that full is not inevitable. What IS
inevitable is
1. Excess software loading at startup. Some are necessary, like
antivirus and firewall software. But a lot is not (Adobe Acrobat?
QuickTime? MS Office?)
2. Fragmented hard drive.
3. Unnecessary registry entries.

Take care of those, and your computer will run like new (nearly.) For
the registry and startup, I use EasyCleaner for the XP machines,
CCleaner for the Vistas. For defragging I use either PerfectDisk and
Disktrix Ultimate Defrag.
Good points, Karl!

Why do you need external programs for defragging? Are they any better than those included in Windows?

--
Sven Hedlund
 
Why do you need external programs for defragging? Are they any better
than those included in Windows?
Ill jump back in here to back up what Karl has said, and yes defraggers do vary and most are better than the Windows one which leaves files scattered all over your drive. I recently looked at a crawling 2yr old HP laptop where the single hard drive was less than 20% full but running JKDefrag's analysis on it showed the files were all over the disk which is bad news for speed as 1) the head has to keep whizzing about to find files and 2) one end of the drive is often only half the speed of the other.

I ran the Windows defragger and it certainly defragged the files but they were still scattered everywhere, about a third of the files were in the slow half of the drive. Hardly any noticeable speed increase in loading big programs after defragging, 20% if you were lucky.

I then ran JKDefrag which apart from defragging, moved all the files neatly into the fast part of the drive. Program loading speed more than doubled, some programs were several times faster.
 
Yes, defraggers do perform differently. The one included in windows is fairly basic (it won't run in the background, etc.)

But just as a note, having files scattered all over the hard drive isn't itself a bad thing. It matters more what those files are. You will hardly ever use most of those files.

There is a utility called Disktrix that actually analyzes the most used files on your hard drive, and moves them to the fastest area of your hard drive, out near the edge. It claims that will affect perceived speed more than merely defragmenting your hard drive.

I tried it, and it does make a difference. One warning though: don't do it twice in quick succession. The second time, it will read its table, find that all the files have been accessed recently (during the first time) and try to move them all to the outer edge, undoing the speed gains you got the first time.

And by the way, I know overclockers and even ordinary performance geeks like to look at benchmarks and all, but the speed you actually see, e.g. when you open a program or boot the computer, is nearly all a matter of the hard drive. (Heavy CPU work like movie editing and rendering is a different matter, of course.) If you want real speed increases, set up a RAID array with striping. PCI can handle far greater data throughput than any hard drive puts out. Get two or more hard drives to use that channel simultaneously, and you will see a big difference.

I had a friend a while back who scored a heavy-duty server somehow (I think it was too bulky) with RAID 5 I think, for his own personal computer. Most software started up instantly. It had only a Pentium III, I think. Pretty darn cool. (But it was noisy and hot.)

So basically what I am saying is that unless you play 3-d games or are into editing video or the like, all this worrying about a few more Hhz here or there is a waste of time and money. (I guess there are some photo editing tasks that are also cpu-intensive, I wouldn't know.)

Cheers!

Karl
 
That looks like it will last even more than a couple of years :-)

I wasn't following all the newest gear lately, so just some general reliablity tips from me...

Go to tomshardware and have a look at the cpu (and other) comparison charts esp. the photoshop benchmarks. That way you can get the components that provide the most bang/$. i7 will be awesome. Get a good CPU cooling rig; most products are heaps better than what intel supplies w/ the processor. Make sure the cooler sits properly on the cpu & use good thermal paste (Artic Silver 5 is good). Install cpu temperature monitoring and keep an eye on it when running the system on full load during the first few days.

Also pay attention on the other components needing cooling (chipsets, GPU, PSU, RAM, HDDs), having enough airflow, etc.

I have a three yo system (xp 64bit) w/ 4GB RAM, but scratchdisk still gets used, so since most motherboard chipsets have RAID controllers now, configure two HDDs (or just parts of them, say 2 x 150GB) to run in stripe (raid 0) mode. That will give nice swap speeds even when your individual drives are not exactly speed demons (NB: don't store important data on them). Put those on the 'inside' of platters for even better acces times (rotational speed).

Western digital raid edition enterprize level hard drives have great MTBF numbers + good warranty as well, others may like other brands (also forget SSD).

Quality DDR3 for RAM. It is worth researching very closely how will the RAM play w/ your motherboard/CPU combination, what are the optimal/stable speeds, etc.

In terms of stability the motherboard and the PSU are the most important components. Most everything is integrated on motherboards now, so make sure you check out all the available reviews of your chosen motherboard re those components and make sure there are reliable, tested drivers available for all of them for your choice of OS.

Get the best quality PSU you can afford, online calculators for optimal wattage, 750-1000W is a safe bet. One powerful 12V rail is better than multiple rails.
Get a PSU w/ a 80-85% or more efficiency rating.

Expect to run out of HDD space eventually so consider an eSATA (4 or more bays) enclosure. Good motherboards often come w/ multiple eSATA ports and port multipliers or just buy a RAID card w/ the enclosure.

After three years I have 3x 500GB, 3x 1TB drives and three smaller ones in my rig and I will be running out of space again (mostly b/c I mirror some of them).

Think about your display first and then match a GPU card to that. You won't need a top-of the line card for photoshop, just something 'windows compatible'.

Get a surge protector or even better an UPS witch will match your system load (there are online calculators for that too) and provides 'clean sinus waves'.

Get a large, sturdy case to hold all this and to have sufficient air-flow. Tidy up the internal cabling for this reason as well. Same cases don't have enough space for large power supplies. Some cases come w/ 'slide-out' motherboard trays, that's great when installing components. Get cases w/ thumb screws. Clean yor components of dust at least 2x/year, but never w/ compressed air. Check your fans regularly and apply grease or swap them out when failing...

Look for ways to reduce noise and vibration in your case from hard drives and fans...

I know it's a cliche, but even if you build RAID arrays it's not a backup, so store a copy of your data off-site.

Don't install all kind of programs and hardware on your production workstation, don't even connect it to the internet, just for must-have system updates. Use a separate pc for trying out new stuff and surfing. Nevertheless run antivirus software all the time...

Check out the enthusiast overclocker forums for your HW info and tips/gotchas & make sure all the component in the system play nicely together.
Learn your bios settings (FSB, multipliers, volts and all that).

That gear is so overclockable not only b/c of the quality, but because it is well matched/tuned to begin with, but I would actually remommend to underclock your rig slightly for even more stability (eg lower voltage to the cpu). Speed will always be there when/if you really need it, but overclocking (=heat) at all times will deteriorate the life-span and reliability of the chips.
HTH,
Sz
 
A faster CPU is worth it up to a point for RAW conversions. My old AthlonXP 2.4GHz used to take ages, must have been over 20 seconds for each file, my new E7300 Core2Duo o/c to 3.2GHz takes about 3 seconds. I don't need anything faster at present.
 
And my I7 920 at 4.18GHz does it in 1.5 seconds, 10 RAW 5D2 files in 15 seconds to convert and save. PS test of 8x10 300 dpi noise max radial blur max is only 8 seconds.
My other computer ex6800 at 4Ghz RAW at 3 seconds and PS test at 12 seconds.
So not just faster CPU but more potent CPU.

--
Eugene

The only time a smaller sensor with the same pixel count is superior to a larger sensor (aka higher pixel density) is when you are focal-length limited.

Lee Jay

 
I have a three yo system (xp 64bit) w/ 4GB RAM, but scratchdisk still
gets used, so since most motherboard chipsets have RAID controllers
now, configure two HDDs (or just parts of them, say 2 x 150GB) to run
in stripe (raid 0) mode. That will give nice swap speeds even when
your individual drives are not exactly speed demons (NB: don't store
important data on them). Put those on the 'inside' of platters for
even better acces times (rotational speed).
Exactly opposite. Outside edge has faster speed.

--
Eugene

The only time a smaller sensor with the same pixel count is superior to a larger sensor (aka higher pixel density) is when you are focal-length limited.

Lee Jay

 
Exactly opposite. Outside edge has faster speed.
Yep, thanx, true - a bit sleepy here. So anyway, just make sure to create those swap partitions first on the drives, that will place them on the beginning of the disk, then create the others as needed.
sz
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top