JimmyTheHand
Senior Member
In all the time I have seen Anastigmat - the only thing that seems important to him is FF
--
J.
--
J.
-
Welcome to the new forums! Please read this first. For known issues we are working to resolve, click here.
Pentax K-7.. turning it up a notch...
- Thread starter mailman88
- Start date
philbarton
Senior Member
When you see these critics personalize, check what boards they post on.
Come to think of it - why are YOU here on Canon? Personally, I like Canon. I like Nikon. I like what Pentax has done with K-7; if you'd even bothered to pay attention.
Here's an interesting aside on forum mentality, quoted from Newsweek:
"In 2005, Sunstein asked liberals and conservatives to write down their views on social issues. Subjects were then split into like-minded groups for 15 minutes. Almost all became more dogmatic in their views. This is called "group polarization"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risky_shift
"Group polarization has also been found to occur with online (computer-mediated) discussions e.g. (Sia et al., 2002). In particular, research has found that group discussions conducted when discussants are in a distributed (cannot see one another) or anonymous (cannot identify one another) environment, can lead to even higher levels of group polarization compared to traditional meetings. This is attributed to the greater numbers of novel arguments generated (due to PAT) and higher incidence of one-upmanship behaviours (due to social comparison)."
Do we now need to post our favorable reviews just for your edification?
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1001&message=31926503
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=31925786
Come to think of it - why are YOU here on Canon? Personally, I like Canon. I like Nikon. I like what Pentax has done with K-7; if you'd even bothered to pay attention.
Here's an interesting aside on forum mentality, quoted from Newsweek:
"In 2005, Sunstein asked liberals and conservatives to write down their views on social issues. Subjects were then split into like-minded groups for 15 minutes. Almost all became more dogmatic in their views. This is called "group polarization"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risky_shift
"Group polarization has also been found to occur with online (computer-mediated) discussions e.g. (Sia et al., 2002). In particular, research has found that group discussions conducted when discussants are in a distributed (cannot see one another) or anonymous (cannot identify one another) environment, can lead to even higher levels of group polarization compared to traditional meetings. This is attributed to the greater numbers of novel arguments generated (due to PAT) and higher incidence of one-upmanship behaviours (due to social comparison)."
Do we now need to post our favorable reviews just for your edification?
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1001&message=31926503
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=31925786
philbarton
Senior Member
-------------------------------
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=31924440
"Will the Lumix G1 and GH1 undercut the entire argument, with those adapters; and a "real" video capability in terms of focusing - not a small thing in video?"
(Your post history is a real giveaway as to bias)
philbarton
Senior Member
========
Nice shots - daylight, right? I indicated below EV6
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposure_value
Daylight open shade is EV 12.
Richard Smals
Senior Member
I don't want to make this personal.... so go in peace and use more links to prove your point. Even if the links are for your own glorification 
Dumbdidoeba...dumdidoe... ik ben moe.
--
Bye4now
http://www.indots.nl
I have the deepest respect for all those people who like me.
Dumbdidoeba...dumdidoe... ik ben moe.
--
Bye4now
http://www.indots.nl
I have the deepest respect for all those people who like me.
philbarton
Senior Member
===========
But no ring-USM.
http://photo.net/equipment/canon/lens-motors
Read above re "ring ultrasonic" vs "micro ultrasonic"
Any lens with a screw drive, with or without SDM, will work fine on both cameras. Lenses with SDM only will not AF with screw drive only bodies. The lenses require a mechanical connection to the body for SDM. Ring-USM operates via an electronic signal, and is far quicker to adjust.
http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.aspx?i=3259
"Our early impressions of the K20D were pretty positive with the fast Pentax 50mm f1.4. As always with recent screw-drive AF, the lens focusing is reasonably fast (if not blistering) and noise is much greater than the excellent Canon Ultrasonic motor lenses - which are now most of the better lenses in the Canon line."
http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1182981601.html
"Most significantly, the new camera now supports Pentax's SDM (or "Supersonic Drive Motor") lenses. SDM lenses offer two main advantages - they're quieter, and they can potentially focus faster thanks to the higher torque, gearless motors they employ. (The system is similar to those from other manufacturers, such as Canon's "Ultrasonic Motor" / USM, Nikon's "Silent Wave Motor" / SWM, and Olympus' "Supersonic Wave Drive" / SWD, amongst others)."
philbarton
Senior Member
(Good grief - someone gets it! The price is the problem, indeed! It's a perfectly nice camera. Look at the history of the K20D's pricing, from inception)
================
(The D300 was released to wide acclaim, and sat in the DPREVIEW top 20 for months. It was a truly evolutionary step from the D200. 51 AF points, and real AF performance. That's when Nikon really began to compete with Canon)
http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/d300.htm
I seem to recall the original price as more like $1700, and it held up extremely well.
===============
================
The Pentax user base has been crying out for the higher-level camera (the mythical K1, etc.) - and here it is. Hoya is forecasting a large percentage jump in sales, in the teeth of a recession. Will legacy owners buy it? A history of spending that kind of money for the brand does not exist.
http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/2332011/?lid=right-news-10
"Hoya Corp. sees shipments of its Pentax brand digital SLR cameras soaring 48 per cent to 340,000 units."
(That would relate to the K-7. The K200D replacement can inherit the older 14 MP sensor - a perfectly logical product spread. But where are the dealers?)
http://photoreporter.com/article.asp?issueID=&num=&vol=&articleType=fc&articleID=2013
" ... NB: Understanding the realities of the U.S. camera market, we need to position Pentax as an excellent niche brand. Our goal is not necessarily to be the best selling brand in the DSLR category or the point-and-shoot category. ... "
" ... The DSLR business is hot, but it’s tough to break through to the top of the pack. What are your goals in this market?
First and foremost, we know we have to think and market like a niche player. We have no intention of trying to unseat the big two players in DSLRs. We’ve seen claims by other well-established brands that optimistically state they intend on capturing 20 percent or more of the market in the next few years, which means there will be tremendous competition and money spent on securing and holding on to the top three spots. We believe we can be successful and profitable if we can grow our digital SLR share in the U.S. from 4 percent to 8 or 10 percent by 2010. Using a car analogy, we need to act more like a Subaru—offer the right features, know who our customers are and market to an audience through dealers that understand our value.
For example, being a niche player, we accept we can’t participate in the big-box stores. We don’t represent the volume they require. So in 2008, we have to find those specialty dealers who value what Pentax offers and make sure they’re able to communicate to customers coming in that they should consider the Pentax brand—be it a DSLR, Optio compact camera or binoculars. If a customer coming into a store can hold a Pentax DLSR, feel the ergonomics and appreciate its features, the photo specialty dealers will help us move people to a Pentax. And we think specialty dealers will appreciate not having to compete with the big-box stores for our business. ... "
(Hoya's predicted rise would give them, idealistically, an 8.5 percent share in 2010. The problem is the economy, and the increase in lower-priced models; which could not have been foretold when this interview was done)
sfa1966
Senior Member
Oh yes, I read it. But the point I made is that you misread the Imaging Resource post regarding OIS. As is your wont, you have steered away from that issue entirely with this post.
Not sure what bias you mean, or how much history you have read, but if you are alleging some sort of 'pro-Pentax' bias, then nothing could be further from the truth. When other brands do something better than Pentax, I am not slow to acknowledge it. Here's a fairly recent example:
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1027&message=31584261
--
Cheers,
sfa
A very limited photographer ...
N
neil holmes
Guest
--
Ok, we get it the Pentax auto focus on previous cameras in low light is poor for you (and many others)....for ME it is not.
This was recently with my old IST*D and my 17-35 Tamron iso 3200 f2.8 1/20 .3 ec....about EV 3
For light levels below this that night the af worked easily as it did for me here but pics are blurred (my K100d would have been better to use). I would rather have a manual focus camera and stabilization than an af one without below EV 3....though both are better.
The Pentaxes I have used to date work best using the AF system to trap focus with manual focus lenses stabilized in really low light. A lowly K100d and a $20 or so fast mf prime ( EG 50 1.7) is a great low light kit.
And then again this thread is about the NEW camera the K7 and those who have used the pre production cameras report that it is MUCH faster to af including in low light.
Look, Canon make great cameras and lenses and if that is your flavour...great (in this forum it should be)..but so do Pentax and this new one DOES look to be great all round.
neil
http://www.flickr.com/photos/26884588@N00/
sfa1966
Senior Member
Well, OIS and in-body SR are roughly equivalent in performance in my experience (I shoot with stabilized lenses at work), so the only thing 'given up' in that regard is the purchasing of expensive OIS lens after expensive OIS lens. I get 4 stops advantage with in-body SR routinely, despite what the DPR tests suggest. Other Pentax users can get 5 stops or more. Some examples:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=31762273
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=31554797
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=29310935
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=30379905
(And there are many, many more examples ...)
But to get back to your question: "Can Pentax make people switch mounts?". The answer appears to be 'yes'. Here's a Canon shooter who posted on the Pentax board yesterday. Unsurprisingly (to me), the cost of L-series glass is a concern for him/her:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=31935034
... and another Canon user now thinking of switching ...
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=31933279
And in case you allege some sort of bias (again), here's a Nikon user ...
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=31933525
The proof of the pudding will of course be in the eating. The K-7 could turn out to be just a sheep in wolf's clothing. But, if the K-7 performs to its paper specs, it will simply make other brands' systems look [generally] bigger, heavier and more expensive. It could certainly be part of a neat second system (or even primary system) for many shooters currently with other brands IMO.
--
Cheers,
sfa
A very limited photographer ...
ManuH
Senior Member
Actually you're one of the rare person that is criticizing the K-7 introductory price. In fact many people feared an overinflated price like the K20D. For what you get I don't think 1300$ is too much. Otherwise, even the D300 can look overpriced.
And I don't really care for your opinions about Hoya's future success, you may feel that you have a lot of knowledge of this market but you don't really know more than most of us.
--
Manu
http://flickr.com/photos/ensh/
Réflex Pentax: http://www.flickr.com/groups/pentaxfr/
My PPG: http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/home#section=ARTIST&subSection=1312871&subSubSection=3929608
E
Erik Magnuson
Guest
Sigh. 5 stops compared to what? Some people can handhold much better than the 1/FL rule even w/o IS. To state any kind of reasonable number you really have to compare like slrgear (and to some extent DPreview) by comparing the percentage of sharp shots with vs. without IS for the same shooter and the same situation. It is a very statistical process. (Have you ever used "poor man's IS? Shoot a burst of 3 or 4 images and you will almost always find one that is significantly sharper than the rest.)
No, there are not. Very few rigorous tests have been done.
There are always going to be a few switchers when any new camera comes out. That's the reason they make new cameras with added features. What's your point?
Many people flirt with multiple systems, but only a few keep it up for the long run. Over time the minor leapfrogging advantages of one brand vs. another evens out.
--
Erik
ManuH
Senior Member
You're really an interesting case, really. You're very smart and manipulative. I wouldn't like to be in your circle.
You're still using the old typical troll argumentation: "I'm presenting facts, you don't agree with so you must be a fanboy". If you're subtle enough you didn't use the F word... yet.
A "Pentax intruder", that's also funny. Why did you talk about Pentax on a Canon forum anyway?
--
Manu
http://flickr.com/photos/ensh/
Réflex Pentax: http://www.flickr.com/groups/pentaxfr/
My PPG: http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/home#section=ARTIST&subSection=1312871&subSubSection=3929608
sfa1966
Senior Member
Hello again Erik. Yes I believe we discussed all this before. You were the guy who started a sub-thread called "Different testers have different thresholds" having snipped from my posting the words "... but there are so many variables (different reviewer for one)".
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1027&message=31749725
Very sneaky. Almost admirably so.
Well, you will recall that in large measure I agree with you. It's just that philbarton (an obscurantist of the first order, if you've not come across him before, perhaps you two should form a club!) trots out the 4-stop (OIS) vs. 2-stop (in-body) mantra with a depressing regularity. My point is that [having used them] the two systems perform much more evenly than that ...
Yes there are. I meant examples on the Pentax/Olympus/Sony forums of 4-6 stops being achieved.
My point is only to answer the question posed in the subject-line of this sub-thread. Nothing devious. ;-)
Gut-feeling? Or do you have data? Define "many" and "a few". I can't really comment as I don't have any such data myself. (Nor do I know what the 'long run' is in the digital age.)
--
Cheers,
sfa
A very limited photographer ...
E
Erik Magnuson
Guest
Then why mention the dubious 5 stop claims? (Note for readers: I'm snipping again. If you have forgotten the full context, press the 'Previous' button to see what I've left out.)
If you look at the slrgear results, you will see that the "Steady" shooter got lucky and got one sharp shot at 1/6 of second with the 70mm with IS off. That's 4 stops. He actually never got a single shot as sharp with IS on. But the percentages of sharper shots was much higher with IS. Showing a few carefully selected images tells us absolutely nothing about the effectiveness of the stabilization in the general case.
Now I don't have an opinion on which is more effective generally. In the real world, camera shake is only one factor. For example AF has statistical variance as well. You might also be able to use a higher ISO (thus high shutter speed or deeper aperture) on one camera vs. another. Some combinations may balance better than others. Heck, the position/orientation of the shutter button might make a difference. Some of these factors likely impact different users differently. Any single factor may be lost in the combination of all factors.
Again, a few carefully chosen anecdotes are meaningless as far as data goes. The real question is if there will be a significant number of switchers or dual users?
Anecdotal based on people I know and communicate with. I personally have multiple systems (i.e. Canon and Sigma) but I bought into the Sigma system for some specialized purposes (a UV/IR experiment.)
--
Erik
sfa1966
Senior Member
Because people keep on posting pictures making such claims. And many of them are impressive.
Again, I generally agree with your observations.
Nothing 'careful' about my selection, and there are many, many more to choose from.
Bingo! Nor do I.
All true, and well put too.
Nothing 'careful' about my choice. The question posed mentioned nothing of 'significant numbers' (whatever that really means).
Well, I shoot Pentax (often, for leisure), Canon (sometimes, for work) and a Sigma DP1. They each have strengths, weaknesses; quirks and foibles.
I'll leave you the last word if you like Erik, but I will only echo the words of the OP here: I love competition... the consumer wins every time.
--
Cheers,
sfa
A very limited photographer ...
Try to hand hold a stabilized Canon or Nikon lens 300+mm and you will understand the difference between in body and in lens stabilization.
N
neil holmes
Guest
--
How?
As I said I do not need to see the vf stabilized.
I am happy hand holding my 300 2.8 with 1.7x for 510mm 4.8 and get pretty much the same speeds as Canon users get...everyone is different, some will do better than me and some will do worse. Of course those pro 2.8 Canon lenses will be better IQ (and for the money they would want to be) but not so for stabilization.
neil
JimmyTheHand
Senior Member
True – but that isn't the statement you made earlier. You can put Sigma HSM lens on the a Pentax SDM body and they work.
Pentax SDM Lens do allow simultaneous AF & MF.
The body AF drive screw is retracted when you press the lens release button on a Pentax Body – the SDM 50-135 that I have currently attached to the K10D, still focuses with that lens release depressed – I know I have just tried it.
So you deliberately put in a bit about noise from a lens that is AF via the body motor to muddy the water? I have never heard anyone suggest the FA 50mm F1.4 is anything other than a screw driven lens, so I can't see what relevance it has – other than, perhaps, Pentax bodies, Like most Nikon ones, still support old AF lenses but that would be in Pentax's favour so I can't see you actually saying that.
Well enough of the arguments – it looks a nice day to be out taking photos – so I guess, much as I'd love to stay there is a D50 with appropriate telephoto begging for a walk.
--
J.
JimmyTheHand
Senior Member
If you meant my comment about dual focus mode Pentax DA* lens being almost as quiet on non-SDM bodies, I have found them much quieter than non-SDM AF lens (most likely because they use different materials)
--
J.
Similar threads
Keyboard shortcuts
- f
- Forum