4000/s and still blurry? Why?

VR needs some time (about 0.5s,) to come into play. If you need fast focussing (and that's the case when shooting action sports), it's impossible with VR "on".

The pictures from the OP are OOF. No motion blur : just OOF. Seems to me the camera/lens didn't have time to focus.
But I might be wrong...
André

Regarding VR on or off for fast action it is difficult to tell without knowing the parameters of the VR actuator and controller, like response speed / bandwidth / settling time and performance near actuator constraints. 18-200 has a normal VR and an "active" VR controller mode; Nikon does not say what exactly changes, but suggests active for action.

While holding "steady", VR is probably in "linear" operation that is well off constraints. It applies a low-pass filter for determining the shooting direction and compensates temporary deviations from that direction. We know it must be faster than shooter's shake in order to be able to compensate. Would anybody happen to know how fast that actually is (does it matter at 1/500 and higher)?

When shooting moving targets, VR is likely to be hitting actuator constraints. That is, when one turns the quickly, the actual position is likely to be much away from the VR direction, while the VR actuator is at the edge of its limited range. Eventually, the VR direction catches up with the actual direction and the actuator attempts to realign to the central position (therefore the movement of the actuator continues for some time after the camera movement has stopped). Controllers have ways of dealing with constraints but this is nonlinear and less predictable. In the "active" mode I would also expect the reference direction of the VR to change faster at movements, and in theory it would also be possible to consider panning.

If implemented properly, I'd expect VR to help up to a certain shutter speed and not to matter much at faster shutter speeds. If not implemented properly, I guess it still can't matter much at very fast shutter speeds that are above its response time, but it might cause problems around that certain shutter speeds.

Ancient_Mariner said:

At 1/800 you can get motion blur caused by unsteady hands only if the
camera is held by an ant with Parkinson's disease...

Click to expand...

Yeah, whatever. If, however, the ant has advanced Parkinsons, it's
unlikely he'll be able to hold still long enough to get an accurate focus
reading. You go your way; I'll go mine. Nikon didn't implement this
technology for no reason. With my 70-300, it is invaluable.

Steve

I have been doing some very similar shooting lately for my kids soccer team, I think the problem lies in the AF-C system, AF-C will fire whether or not your in focus or not, what your seeing is just that, your in burst and the camera has not locked on.

I take around 150-200 shots a game, and just throw out what isn't right, I am using the D90 in AF-C with a pretty crappy Sigma 18-200 HSM OS lens (trying to upgrade soon)

Here are some samples...just some cropping and very little else, the parents have been very happy with the results, I am still learning every day on how to get better results.

http://gallery.me.com/erikmichaelis#100051

Shoot often, toss out what doesn't work

Erik
--
D90

Just some random points in response to various things in this thread.

I think we've settled the fact that the problem is focus, not motion blur.

I recommend you practice with the various AF modes (AF-S, AF-A, AF-C) and also the different settings for focus points (single, auto etc) to work out what is best for action photography - and perhaps others here with more practical experience than me might be able to offer some pointers.

Is it the lens? Well in my experience the 18-200 is not THAT slow at focusing, and while it may not be the first choice of great sports photographers, it can produce some pretty reasonable results. You should be able to do better than the examples you have shown; certainly everything else about your photos is on the money. So keep working on it.

Now, about VR:

At anything above about 1/500 you shouldn't need the VR - for a stationary shot. At 1/4000 it is a complete non-issue.

Some people believe VR can actually make things worse at higher shutter speeds, I don't know how true that is but there's no need to test that theory IMHO - just turn it off because it'll make no positive difference anyway.

BUT: We're not talking about "stationary shots" here; you are panning with the action. I am no expert on this, but I think this is what "Active" VR mode is designed for. Active mode is supposed to be for use from moving cars and the like, I THINK it helps when you're panning also.

Short story: Turn VR off when you're photographing action, OR turn it to Active mode. Normal VR mode is a waste.

As I said, I'm not an expert, I don't shoot a lot of action and I'll get around to testing this and gaining more first-hand experience some day.

In the mean time, maybe others who have more experience may comment on that.

--

I was thinking about the exact same questions as you. New D90 user w.18-200mm. Taking good images at kids soccer & baseball games is a skill in which I need help!
--
patrick byrne
newburyport, ma

As others have pointed out, this was a focus point. In reading some of your responses, you seem really convinced that AF-C is the way to go with action photography. It is if you take care to keep the focus point on your target. I really struggled with my D80 to accomplish this consistently -- one just has to be quick -- and often times, the focus point would switch to a fore/background object and my subject would be OOF. For that reason, with my D80, I tend to shoot action AF-S and simply focus at the last moment, right before I snap (more on this in a second). The D90 has an extra mode 3D tracking AF-C mode which intelligently switches the focus point to keep up with your subject. Though it works better, it doesn't work as smoothly as a 51-focus point system (D300 and up) would.

As for your impression that you need to spend a lot of money on a fast zoom, for the type of shots you took during this soccer game, I find the VR70-300 very quick and accurate. Check out the "Action" page in my Website for a surfing event I covered a couple of months back where the 70-300 and D90 performed amazingly well.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Rule of Thirds is meant to be broken, but only 1/3 of the time.



D80/D90 photos: http://esfotoclix.com

RAL said:

Why would you want to turn vr off?

Click to expand...

Because it tends to be counterproductive above 1/500. Everyone seems to think that VR has an infinite cycling time. It doesn't. It's sampling frequency is just above 1/500. Most pros turn it off for sports.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (19 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com

[U] sem said:

Regarding VR on or off for fast action it is difficult to tell
without knowing the parameters of the VR actuator and controller,
like response speed / bandwidth / settling time and performance near
actuator constraints. 18-200 has a normal VR and an "active" VR
controller mode; Nikon does not say what exactly changes, but
suggests active for action.

Click to expand...

No. Active is for when you're on a platform with motion (vehicle, etc.). Think of it this way: if the camera were on a tripod and there would still be vibration or motion, turn Active on. If the camera would be steady on a tripod, turn Active off.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (19 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com [/U]

Erkman said:

I have been doing some very similar shooting lately for my kids
soccer team, I think the problem lies in the AF-C system, AF-C will
fire whether or not your in focus or not,

Click to expand...

Yes, it will. But the alternative doesn't really work for sports: the camera will only fire when focus is achieved, which probably means you "miss the moment."

There's a reason why pros don't use a consumer lens (or camera) for sports. You need high-speed focus motors and short black out times. Faster maximum aperture means more light gets to the autofocus sensor. It also helps if you know how to focus tracking works on the camera and how far it will wander from what you select (in Dynamic AF). Further, it helps to be closer (longer lens). All these little things start adding up.

Now, don't get me wrong, it is possible to get by with less. But ironically, you'll have to learn more about your autofocus system to get consistently good results (I don't know many pros that have even read the manual ; ).

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (19 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com

Yes thats what I was getting at, must use AF-C for sports, but there are so many other factors as well to consider.....still trudging through your guide, learning more every day.

--
D90

I really like quite a few of these!

I take umbrage with the characterization that Sigma lens as "crappy". I am a big proponent of "budget lenses for the common man", and think that the benefit/cost ratio of that lens isn't bad at all. It is much cheaper than the 18-200VR, and oftentimes is about as good. I have the first generation non-HSM no-OS version, and when I look for superzoom size and convenience I really am often more pleased with the results than the "Nikkor or nothing" chauvinism we encounter around here suggests I have any right to.

Mr. Hogan mentions in this subthread that fast focussing high quality lenses are best for action photography, and for the SI aspirants I can appreciate why. For those of us just interested in getting a few good snaps of the kids' games, the consumer lenses can be just fine provided we know our gear and prepare ourselves for a modest keeper-to-trash ratio.

The advice and technical explanations have been extremely helpful! Based on this input, here is what I'm going to try for my next shots:

1. The camera did not focus which is why the photo is blurred.

2. I do not need 4000/s. To stop body motion 500s should be fine. This will allow lower ISO and smaller aperture if I want more DOF. For most action shots I only need 500-640.

3. I changed my AF area mode to dynamic instead of single point--manual pg. 173 This way the focus may lock before shutter is released.

4. Use manual mode if possible--start with Aperture to get initial exposure settings then switch to M.
5. Keep the Aperture as wide as possible, if DOF is what I want.
6. At 500/s+ turn off VR

7. Note that the 18-200 has poor resolution, which can cause part of the problem. Accordingly, shoot in RAW. For more information on resolution issues with the 18-200 see: http://naturephotoadvisor.com/Articles/Nikon%2018-200mm%20Lens%20Review/Nikon%2018-200mm%20Lens%20Review.htm Although the problem with my photo was OOF, the resolution problem with the 18-200 is informative for other shoots.

Thanks again and please let me know if you disagree with any of the above.
Barrett

--
Thank you.
BMosbacker

Thom Hogan said:

No. Active is for when you're on a platform with motion (vehicle,
etc.).

Click to expand...

Yep.

Thom Hogan said:

Think of it this way: if the camera were on a tripod and there
would still be vibration or motion, turn Active on. If the camera
would be steady on a tripod, turn Active off.

Click to expand...

I query this bit. The VRII system in the 18-200 does have "Active" mode (ie from a moving car) but it does not have a "tripod" capability. I would have thought that the VR in the 18-200 should not be used on a tripod?

Also: Do you think that Active mode is suited to handheld panning, or is it really only for things like moving cars. I'm inclined to think the latter, because my panning technique may not be very good, but it's smoother than a moving car?!

--

Thom Hogan said:

[U] sem said:

Regarding VR on or off for fast action it is difficult to tell
without knowing the parameters of the VR actuator and controller,
like response speed / bandwidth / settling time and performance near
actuator constraints. 18-200 has a normal VR and an "active" VR
controller mode; Nikon does not say what exactly changes, but
suggests active for action.

Click to expand...

No. Active is for when you're on a platform with motion (vehicle,
etc.). Think of it this way: if the camera were on a tripod and there
would still be vibration or motion, turn Active on. If the camera
would be steady on a tripod, turn Active off.

Click to expand...

You've just made me read the manual! Unfortunately there are not many relevant details inthere or in the Nikon propaganda
http://imaging.nikon.com/products/imaging/technology/vr/index.htm
http://www.nikon.com/about/technology/core/software/vr_e/index.htm
http://imaging.nikon.com/products/imaging/technology/scene/16/index.htm
http://www.nikonusa.com/pdf/manuals/lenses/DX/AFSDXVR18-200.pdf

Would you happen to have any more in-depth references, I'm sort of interested because my background is control systems.

They say normal is for steady shots and also autodetects panning (handles it simply by disabling one pair of actuators for disturbance attenuation in the detected panning direction), while active considers also larger changes of angles as disturbances to be compensated and is not meant for panning.

A sensor sampling time of 1/1000 s is mentioned, but the actuator speed or closed-loop settling time is not.

A "centering before exposure" feature is mentioned - the actuator is centered at the moment of shutter-release being full-pressed so that is less likely to hit the constraint due to a disturbance in the worst direction during exposure. "Due to the characteristics of the vibration reduction mechanism, the image in the viewfinder may become blurred after releasing the shutter." I've noticed jumps in the position (not really blur) sometimes after pressing the shutter.

VR is activated by half-pressing the shutter-release, and the manual says "Wait until the image in the viewfinder stops vibrating before fully depressing the shutter release button after you have lightly pressed the shutter release button." Now this does not sound so logical in light of the previous CBE feature that is said to work almost instantly, except if they have a problem in the VR start-up (generally this is known as "bumpless transfer" in control systems, or could also be related to uncontrollable transients when powering up the motors). If this is true, this is also not user friendly to affectional shooters who never bother to half-press the shutter release and might actually cause the problem of the OP. Any opinion on this???

All put together, I'd suggest VR off at 1/500 s and faster (but maybe also a bit slower?).[/U]

Here's my take on your thoughts

DrBmosbacker said:

The advice and technical explanations have been extremely helpful!
Based on this input, here is what I'm going to try for my next shots:

1. The camera did not focus which is why the photo is blurred.

Click to expand...

Agreed

DrBmosbacker said:

2. I do not need 4000/s. To stop body motion 500s should be fine.

Click to expand...

Agreed

DrBmosbacker said:

This will allow lower ISO and smaller aperture if I want more DOF.
For most action shots I only need 500-640.

Click to expand...

Agreed

DrBmosbacker said:

3. I changed my AF area mode to dynamic instead of single
point--manual pg. 173 This way the focus may lock before shutter is
released.

Click to expand...

Might work, I don't know. I would use afs

DrBmosbacker said:

4. Use manual mode if possible--start with Aperture to get initial
exposure settings then switch to M.

Click to expand...

Manual produces great stuff, but with fast action and varying light
could present problems

DrBmosbacker said:

5. Keep the Aperture as wide as possible, if DOF is what I want.

Click to expand...

Don't understand, wide apertures produce less DOF

DrBmosbacker said:

6. At 500/s+ turn off VR

Click to expand...

I don't buy this one yet. But Thom is the expert. Apparently vr doesn't

work like I thought optical stabilization did if this is the case. I haven't seen
this in my use of vr.

DrBmosbacker said:

7. Note that the 18-200 has poor resolution, which can cause part of
the problem. Accordingly, shoot in RAW. For more information on
resolution issues with the 18-200 see:

Click to expand...

Based on my copy of the 18-200 I don't buy this one at all. Mine is a bit soft
wide open at 200mm, but rapidly clears up as closed down.

DrBmosbacker said:

http://naturephotoadvisor.com/Articles/Nikon%2018-200mm%20Lens%20Review/Nikon%2018-200mm%20Lens%20Review.htm Although the problem with my photo was OOF, the resolution problem with the 18-200 is informative for other shoots.

Thanks again and please let me know if you disagree with any of the
above.
Barrett

--
Thank you.
BMosbacker

Click to expand...

Good luck and keep practicing - nothing will help more than this.

Thom Hogan said:

Because it tends to be counterproductive above 1/500. Everyone seems
to think that VR has an infinite cycling time. It doesn't. It's
sampling frequency is just above 1/500.

Click to expand...

Why don't the camera bodies turn VR off automatically once they are set to higher shutter speeds than 1/500th? Seems like the logical thing to do, doesn't it? And it can't be hard to do ...

-- snorri

--
'... haben sind gewesen gehabt haben geworden sein.'

snorri said:

Why don't the camera bodies turn VR off automatically once they are
set to higher shutter speeds than 1/500th? Seems like the logical
thing to do, doesn't it? And it can't be hard to do ...

Click to expand...

Does the lens know the shutter speed, or is there a VR_off signal coming to it from the camera? Don't know, guess not.

Btw, just fired 20 shots with D90+18-200@200, 1/1000 with no pre-focus (half-press) and didn't get a single example of blur, even when shaking intentionally. I did see some other folks' samples of weird bokeh with VR. There was also somebody complaining that his 70-300 sometimes takes some time to get the VR to settle at half-press or even just keeps oscillating, but that is probably a malfunction.

Well, half-pressing the shutter activates VR, so there must be some kind of signal from the body to the lens. Could be coupled with AF activation, though: "rotate focus to position X and activate VR".

-- snorri

--
'... haben sind gewesen gehabt haben geworden sein.'

All you really need is maybe 1/1000th of a second for the most extreme sports. Lots of time 1/500th is OK (maybe some extreme foot blur if they are running.) By going too high in shutter speed you need to use a smaller aperture, which means less depth of field. That makes it harder to a prosumer grade lens to focus and nail the shot, especially when you are somewhat new at this.

Try setting the shutter speed to 1/1000th and using a smaller aperture. Then play w/different focus modes. No matter what camera, what brand camera, or what lens, expect to have some focus problems. The trick is to increase the percentage which means some practice and playing around.

I've gotten photo's like your w/a Canon and a $3000 lens. They are what I call the "focus on nothing" photos. Nothing seems sharp, no obvious reason, not motion blur.

You can try multi-point, single point, tracking, continuous, prefocusing. But no matter what you do, sometimes the camera just doesn't like you. All you can do is to increase the percentage. Not easy getting a great action shot, even outdoors in bright sun.

As you get better and your capture ratio increase you can lower the aperture again. That will help blur the background and keep the shots looking nice.