I think the so called D7 Upgrade should have been free

If you really want to find an analogy in the computer business, the Minolta firmware upgrade should be compared with a motherboard firmware (BIOS) upgrade, not a CPU upgrade.

I have never heard of any motherboard manufacturer charging for BIOS upgrades, even for "true" feature upgrades (not just bug fixes). Recent examples are upgrades to support an AMD XP CPU, or upgrade to support 2.2GHz P4 CPU.

Pete Vickers said:

Pete Vickers wrote:

Click to expand...

Pete Vickers said:

If Intel bring out a new processor you don't expect a free upgrade
or do you.

Click to expand...

I understand that you may like your camera (I like mine too...) - I don't understand why you think Minolta can do no wrong - everywhere in this thread where someone criticizes Minolta, you rush to their defense! I think they have made some good cameras over the years, but their customer service is not 100% - I can personally vouch for that.

TheSwede said:

Bill Hulsey said:

I purchased the firmware upgrade and this is the very first time I
have ever heard of a company charging for a firmware upgrade. This
is a firmware upgrade and not a software upgrade which you would
expect to pay for. Greedy, Greedy Minolta.

Click to expand...

So, firmware is not software? Where'd you learn that?

It's a feature upgrade. You can't even get that for any other
consumer or prosumer digicam. Paying for it may be a bit over the
top, but since Minolta are the only company even offering it at
all , isn't it worth a little more positive attitude?

--
Jesper

Click to expand...

Dominic.Chan said:

If you really want to find an analogy in the computer business, the
Minolta firmware upgrade should be compared with a motherboard
firmware (BIOS) upgrade, not a CPU upgrade.

Click to expand...

That's apples and oranges. A camera will keep working indefinitely without upgrades, barring bugs which you do get free fixes for.

A motherboard won't. It's part of a very intricate chain, and all motherboard manufacturers offer free upgrades because the environment they live in constantly changes.

Name one (1) consumer camera manufacturer that will offer functionality upgrades the like of whoch Minolta is now offering. Just one. If they offer it, and for free, I will concede that you have a point.

A camera firmware is more like an OS - it handles the whole functionality of the system, unlike a BIOS which handles only parts.

--
Jesper

Donsta said:

I understand that you may like your camera (I like mine too...) - I
don't understand why you think Minolta can do no wrong - everywhere
in this thread where someone criticizes Minolta, you rush to their
defense! I think they have made some good cameras over the years,
but their customer service is not 100% - I can personally vouch for
that.

Click to expand...

I agree. But what I don't agree with is the sentiment that they are alone in this. All large companies on occasion (or more often) give bad service. That's unfortunately the state of things. If I could change this, I would.

All I'm saying is, Minolta tries . They make upgrades available, which noone else does. For this, and for their good products, I feel they deserve recognition.

Yes, their customer service could use rather major improvement. Yes, a lot of people at Minolta don't know what they're talking about and need a basic course in customer relations. I will not argue this. Minolta definitely can - and do - many things wrong.

However, shooting Minolta down for offering an unprecedented upgrade is wrong. Telling them to act up on customer service, sales, upgrade policy for bug fixes etc. is right. I have no problem with that. But don't shoot them down for trying something that will improve the whole industry.

--
Jesper

dpreview, 2002 July 25:

"...Nikon Europe has posted a new firmware for the Coolpix 995 digital camera. Firmware 1.7 is noted to 'improve the issue of images captured by Coolpix 995 appearing too red when using Auto White Balance under incandescent light'. It's good to see a manufacturer continuing to support its older models as well as the latest cameras".

Granted that the changes are much more minor, but please don't claim that "Not a single one" gets (free) upgrades.

theswede #100093 said:

TheSwede wrote:
Really. Noone. Some pro cameras in the $4,000 or so range get
upgrades (I have heard of one so far), but no consumer level
cameras. None. Not a single one.

If this initiative makes Minolta get treated as the scum of the
earth for offering alternative upgrade paths, who else will offer
them? Will even Minolta try it again?

--
Jesper

Click to expand...

Your logic is beyond belief.

A motherboard with a 1.8GHz CPU will run "indefinitely", no one can claim that he "needs" to upgrade to a 2.2GHz P4. which is what the BIOS upgrade allows you to do.

TheSwede said:

Dominic.Chan said:

If you really want to find an analogy in the computer business, the
Minolta firmware upgrade should be compared with a motherboard
firmware (BIOS) upgrade, not a CPU upgrade.

Click to expand...

That's apples and oranges. A camera will keep working indefinitely
without upgrades, barring bugs which you do get free fixes for.

A motherboard won't.

Click to expand...

This is simply not true. Nikon has provide free upgrades for their Coolpix firmware. For example, the Coolpix 990 firmware 1.1 upgrade provided the following changes, all of which are improvements and feature upgrades, not bug fixes:

a) Improved autofocus. Improvements have been made to focusing when auto AF-area selection is in effect. Improvements have also been made when focusing in a selected focus area with manual focus-area selection.

b) Improved continuous shooting. After a series of photographs has been shot in a continuous sequence the next photograph can be taken as soon as memory for a single photograph becomes available in the buffer.

c) Support for the remote release cable. The MC-EU1 remote cord (available separately) can be used to not only release the shutter but also to perform such operations as zoom and interval photography.

d) Improvements to Best Shot Selection (BSS). With BSS on you can now take up to ten shots at any image quality (except "Hi" quality) and size. Only the shot with the highest level of detail is recorded to the memory card.

e) Improvements to the review function. A reduction has been made in the amount of time photographs are displayed after shooting; this makes it possible to set up the next photograph immediately.

f) Improved playback speed. Improvements have been made to allow the rapid display of uncompressed photographs taken at the "HI" quality setting.

g) Improved white balance. The performance of the white balance function has been further improved.

TheSwede said:

It's a feature upgrade. You can't even get that for any other
consumer or prosumer digicam. Paying for it may be a bit over the
top, but since Minolta are the only company even offering it at
all , isn't it worth a little more positive attitude?

--
Jesper

Click to expand...

That is a bug fix, and not an upgrade. The statement you quoted admits this. Images appeared too red before the new firmware. That was a bug.

--Larry

Dominic.Chan said:

"...Nikon Europe has posted a new firmware for the Coolpix 995
digital camera. Firmware 1.7 is noted to 'improve the issue of
images captured by Coolpix 995 appearing too red when using Auto
White Balance under incandescent light'. It's good to see a
manufacturer continuing to support its older models as well as the
latest cameras".

Granted that the changes are much more minor, but please don't
claim that "Not a single one" gets (free) upgrades.

Dominic.Chan said:

TheSwede wrote:
Really. Noone. Some pro cameras in the $4,000 or so range get
upgrades (I have heard of one so far), but no consumer level
cameras. None. Not a single one.

If this initiative makes Minolta get treated as the scum of the
earth for offering alternative upgrade paths, who else will offer
them? Will even Minolta try it again?

--
Jesper

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Basically this firmware is what the D7 should have been in the first place. They doubled the autofocus speed? yeah, the D7 when it was released was rushed and sloppy in terms of programing.

B A H

Terry Waite said:

I still can't believe that Minolta is charging for this D7 upgrade.
Firmware upgrades should be free when you spend that much on a
camera. Hopefully someone will put the upgrade out on the net for
download.

Click to expand...

--

If you have time to post on this site every day, you HAVE time to click a banner to feed the starving every day. http://www.thehungersite.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.pbase.com/gdguide
http://adigitaldreamer.com

Please also read my other post on Coolpix 990 Firmware 1.1 upgrade, listing 7 improvements, not bug fixes. Unless of course you consider Minolta's "improved auto focus and improved continuous shooting" to be upgrades, and Nikon's "improved auto focus and improved continuous shooting" to be bug-fixes.

Wouldn't surprise me, going by the arguments put forth so far.

Larry Cunningham said:

That is a bug fix, and not an upgrade. The statement you quoted
admits this. Images appeared too red before the new firmware. That
was a bug.

--Larry

Click to expand...

B A H said:

B A H

Terry Waite said:

I still can't believe that Minolta is charging for this D7 upgrade.
Firmware upgrades should be free when you spend that much on a
camera. Hopefully someone will put the upgrade out on the net for
download.

Click to expand...

--
If you have time to post on this site every day, you HAVE time to
click a banner to feed the starving every day.
http://www.thehungersite.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.pbase.com/gdguide
http://adigitaldreamer.com

Click to expand...

Minolta's Marketing team is brilliant! Develop technology, don't release it in the first phase and then put the "new" model out to market after you've sold the old version for a while, but allow customers to PURCHASE the upgrade!

This is reminiscent of the way American auto manufacturers did things! Put cars out that they knew had parts that would have to be replaced shortly thereafter (to make profit off the replacement parts!) Backfired on them when the Japanese auto manufacturers didn't play their way and made cars that ran forever (almost!)

Maybe its time for American's to manufacture these cameras!!!

BUY AMERICAN!!!

TheSwede said:

Tim Trzcinski said:

You're right. I don't have to buy the upgrade and I won't.

Click to expand...

That's your right, definitely.

theswede #100093 said:

And I will NEVER buy another Minolta product again.

Click to expand...

Pretty strong statement, and a rather argumentative, hostile view.

theswede #100093 said:

And you would be fooling yourself to think there aren't hundreds and maybe thousands
of D7 customers who don't feel the same way.

Click to expand...

Maybe. Although I doubt it. Who else even offers an upgrade,
period? Name one consumer digicam manufacturer that does something
even remotely close to this. Just one.

Click to expand...

The need to offer an upgrade such as this was inspired by one marketing gaffe after another starting with packing alkalines with the original D7. I see it as a need to save face.

theswede #100093 said:

theswede #100093 said:

Minolta needed to pacify MANY dissatisfied customers by offering this upgrade for
free.

Click to expand...

Why dissatisfied? What's wrong here? The D7 performs as specified
and advertised; it's a good camera that is still in some demand.
The D7i is one of the best consumer / prosumer cameras around right
now. The D7u is a much cheaper alternative for people who have the
D7 and want more features than they initially paid for, but who
don't want to spring for a new camera.

Click to expand...

I can't speak for the D7i but as far as the D7 goes I see it as a great camera for capturing art but a poor camera for capturing life. I see it as 1/2 a good camera.

theswede #100093 said:

What the heck have Minolta done that is dissatisfying ?

Click to expand...

There is no doubt in my mind that good photos can be taken with the D7. But if I have a fleeting moment to take a "once in a lifetime" shot I won't reach for it because auto focus and exposure are too slow and inaccurate. When there is not enough time to set the camera manually I believe I should be able to trust Auto mode and with the D7 I can't. That is dissatisfying.

theswede #100093 said:

theswede #100093 said:

To me, it isn't a philosophical argument.

Click to expand...

Nor to me. This is a very real position. Minolta are doing
something completely unprecedented. Noone else has done this. If
Minolta does not get support, do you think anyone will try this
again?

Click to expand...

Debating whether other manufacturers have offered similar upgrades without cost and whether this upgrade is comparable to new versions of Windows are philosophical arguments to me.

theswede #100093 said:

theswede #100093 said:

From that standpoint you may have a point.

Click to expand...

You obviously are not listening, but carry on. This is not an issue
of philosophy; this is an issue of cause and effect.

Click to expand...

From the standpoint of whether other manufacturers have offered this much of an upgrade for free you may be right, philosophically speaking (to clarify my prevoius statement). I am listening.

theswede #100093 said:

theswede #100093 said:

But given the level of
dissatisfaction expressed in this forum, it would have been a good
business/marketing decision to offer the upgrade for free.

Click to expand...

I'm not arguing that it would not have been better to offer it for
free. Of course it would. But the alternative isn't to get it for
free. The alternative is to not get it at all.

And if you choose to argue that point, who else has offered an
upgrade at all; much less for free? Not even Minolta have until now.

Click to expand...

None of the other DC's I have owned (4 others) needed basic tweaking as much as the D7.

theswede #100093 said:

theswede #100093 said:

I don't think you have too much to worry about as far as future upgrades go
though. Minolta will need to sell upgrades to make up for lost
camera sales.

Click to expand...

I doubt they'll waste the money on retro development given the
level of hostility displayed here.

Click to expand...

The level of hostility displayed here is not limited to me.

theswede #100093 said:

--
Jesper

Click to expand...

I hear this line of reasoning all the times and must say that it's fair. I don't mind paying for the upgrade and in fact has my order in processing. The only concern I have is if there are further upgrades down the road, how would Minolta distribute a free upgrade to both people who did and didn't buy the firmware upgrade this time around?

Bryan Biggers said:

Tony Rae said:

Terry Waite said:

I still can't believe that Minolta is charging for this D7 upgrade.
Firmware upgrades should be free when you spend that much on a
camera. Hopefully someone will put the upgrade out on the net for
download.

Click to expand...

I agree. It's not something that effects me since I just bought the
D7i but if I had bought the D7 earlier I'd not be very happy about
this.
It's not going to earn Minolta too many friends.
Others such as Canon and Nikon offer them for free. I upgraded the
firmware on my old Canon S10 and it was freely available at Canon's
homepage. Maybe they are not selling many and need all the money
they can get?

Click to expand...

--

You guys have to be kidding. NO manufacturer has ever offered a
firmware upgrade like this one that adds features that were not
present when you bought the camera. The firmware upgrades that you
got for free from Nikon and Canon were all bug fixes, and Minolta
has also had two free bug fix firmwares for the D7; you are free to
download them today. Minolta didn't have to do this. They could
have let the D7 owners buy a new camera, which is what EVERY other
manufacture has done. Instead they chose to add new features to the
old camera, even though it competes with the new model, and make it
availible at a nominal price. If you go over in the Nikon and Sony
forums, you will find people looking with considerable jealousy at
this upgrade. If people don't support it, they can go back to the
"old days" of buying a new camera instead when a new camera comes
out. Bryan

Click to expand...

SHhhhhhh....

Keep your voice down. I don't want Nikon to think this type of move is good for the industry. They might start charging for firmware upgrades that they've always given out for free. Look at Dominic.chan's post below.

TheSwede said:

Donsta said:

I understand that you may like your camera (I like mine too...) - I
don't understand why you think Minolta can do no wrong - everywhere
in this thread where someone criticizes Minolta, you rush to their
defense! I think they have made some good cameras over the years,
but their customer service is not 100% - I can personally vouch for
that.

Click to expand...

I agree. But what I don't agree with is the sentiment that they are
alone in this. All large companies on occasion (or more often) give
bad service. That's unfortunately the state of things. If I could
change this, I would.

All I'm saying is, Minolta tries . They make upgrades available,
which noone else does. For this, and for their good products, I
feel they deserve recognition.

Yes, their customer service could use rather major improvement.
Yes, a lot of people at Minolta don't know what they're talking
about and need a basic course in customer relations. I will not
argue this. Minolta definitely can - and do - many things wrong.

However, shooting Minolta down for offering an unprecedented
upgrade is wrong. Telling them to act up on customer service,
sales, upgrade policy for bug fixes etc. is right. I have no
problem with that. But don't shoot them down for trying something
that will improve the whole industry.

--
Jesper

Click to expand...

[Bunch of stuff not relevent to my easy and practical advice snipped]

Donald Hutton said:

I'm will never buy anothe
product from them because they have made it impossible for me to
purchase this upgrade (which I am happy to do) - I presently live
in the US, but my CC was issued in my previous country of residence

• so it won't work on their site.

Click to expand...

In addition to the Free-Account-With-Debit-Card solution to this, which will work in a number of circumstances, I can suggest a fairly simple solution for this specific situation:

Ask a friend to use his/her credit card to order your upgrade. Pay your friend cash to cover the amount on the order confirmation (it's a nice gesture to round it up at least to the nearest dollar). I have done this for friends, and friends have done it for me, back in the days when I didn't have a credit card. MinoltaUSA don't care who pays for it -- I ordered two copies of the upgrade because I have two cameras, but they didn't demand serial numbers or any other proof of ownership, and my two upgrades are in transit as I type. It doesn't have to be that huge a deal.

Of course, this brilliant plan is predicated on one having friends and cash -- I'm ASSuming those aren't problems. G

Sam in SF

TheSwede said:

And engine upgrades should be free when you spend forty times as
much on a car, I assume?

Click to expand...

I had an engine replaced for free 30 years ago on a Mazda R100, after 3 years and 60,000 KM of use.

Mazda admitted that the seals on the rotary engine were not suitable for my enviroment.

Jeff.

in computer there is

• hardware
• firmware - bios
• OS/driver
• application

I think the camera firmware, I can analogy to Firmware, OS and application in PC. Firmware in PC is dummy - that it can not control whole PC.

Dominic.Chan said:

If you really want to find an analogy in the computer business, the
Minolta firmware upgrade should be compared with a motherboard
firmware (BIOS) upgrade, not a CPU upgrade.

I have never heard of any motherboard manufacturer charging for
BIOS upgrades, even for "true" feature upgrades (not just bug
fixes). Recent examples are upgrades to support an AMD XP CPU, or
upgrade to support 2.2GHz P4 CPU.

Click to expand...

Dominic.Chan said:

Your logic is beyond belief.

Click to expand...

Amazing. So I can in all instances consider a motherboard equivalent to a consumer level digicam?

How's that for beyond belief!

Dominic.Chan said:

A motherboard with a 1.8GHz CPU will run "indefinitely", no one can
claim that he "needs" to upgrade to a 2.2GHz P4. which is what the
BIOS upgrade allows you to do.

Click to expand...

So, if I buy a top of the line motherboard and it won't work with the latest CPU, and the manufacturer doesn't release an upghrade allowing it, that's normal?

It would be highly unusual; baseline in motherboards is you get a free upgrade. Likeweise, baseline in dogicams is you get no upgrade.

So Minolta are trying to change this and giving us an opportunity to upgrade. Something noone else does. And you consider my logic in thinking this is a darn good thing to be beyond belief ?

Maybe you can tell me who does better? Please do!

--
Jesper

Dominic.Chan said:

Granted that the changes are much more minor, but please don't
claim that "Not a single one" gets (free) upgrades.

Click to expand...

Oh, I will continue to claim this until someone gives not much less minor updates. What you're mentioning is mere bugfixes bringing the camera up to original specs. What Minolta is doing is going way beyond original specs.

Find me one, just one, manufacturer who does this.

--
Jesper

Jeff Tokayer said:

TheSwede said:

And engine upgrades should be free when you spend forty times as
much on a car, I assume?

Click to expand...

I had an engine replaced for free 30 years ago on a Mazda R100,
after 3 years and 60,000 KM of use.
Mazda admitted that the seals on the rotary engine were not
suitable for my enviroment.

Click to expand...

And this brought your engine way beyond original specs?

Oh, it brought it to original specs? Well, that's a bugfix, not an upgrade then, isn't it?

If I sound sarcastic, it's because people are trying pretty hard to treat me that way; I do not mean it personally and insulting in any way.

--
Jesper