The fz28 extra zoom debate starts here! (pics)

Hi JortS29,

It seems that since I looked at your profile earlier this evening DPReview have changed the format of the members profiles and I can no longer see the option to send you an e-mail.

I'm very sorry if I disappoint you.

Jimmy
--
J C Brown
 
Yes, it has texture- it is pixelated more than the 10MP version. That is precisely my point!
Djedi
--
Old timer
 
They were shot at the same focal length, following the theory you
posted that the EZ zoom shot wil be brighter/faster.
--And was it?

You need to use full zoom in normal(10mp) mode to get the maximum increase in f stop using EZ zoom. Since the 10mp image was only shot at 290mm, the increase will be somewhat less than if it were shot at full zoom.
-Kurt Horsley
 
When the normal 10 MP setting is changed to the 5 MP or any other EZ
Zoom setting, no change occurs in the actual focal length or aperture
of the lens. There is therefore no change in the image which is
focussed on the sensor.
I doubt that...

Of course, the true focal length doesn't change...but anytime you crop the sensor, you crop into the lens too...as much as 50% when using the EZ zoom. That's the OUTER 50%...which is significantly inferior to the sweet spot in the center of ALL lenses. The center of all lenses are brighter, sharper and have less light falloff than the edges do. It also induces less chromatic aberration. That's why people choose to stop down lenses for the sharpest results. Ez zoom does exactly that... ... ... which is why it also slightly changes the f stop without changing the true focal length of the lens.

It also increases the
number of images which can be stored on an SD card and may allow a
faster burst rate.
No...it DECREASES the burst rate. Sensors ALWAYS shoot at their full resolution. Cropping them down in-camera requires processing time which notably reduces the burst rate.
For the FZ50 the corresponding difference is too small too give any
significant benefit and for the FZ20 with its constant F/2.8 lens it
makes no difference at all
That's true with the FZ20, but the fz28 and 50 don't have constant aperture lenses like the fz10-20 do.

I appreciate the fact that you can't see the difference in picture quality. If people would do the test correctly, and not add their own twist, the difference would be more obvious. It becomes clear to me that people don't understand lenses (or cameras) enough to know how to do the test correctly...and therefore don't appreciate the importance of doing that. They simply expect to point and shoot and see some type of miracle improvement that isn't going to happen. The improvement in EZ zoom is subtle, but definitely there. If cropping into lenses didn't improve image quality and sharpness, we'd all be shooting prime lenses and just crop them...and wouldn't have zoom's at all.
I trust that clarifies the way in which the EZ zoom operates.

Jimmy
--
J C Brown
--
-Kurt Horsley
 
  • If there is a small difference with some cameras it's only because the camera manufacturer used other parameters for the in-camera-processing (noise reduction, JPEG compression) on the smaller cropped images than on the full size images.
That to the best of my knowledge is the only plausible explanation
for the differences which some forum members claim to see. IMHO these
differences can only be in sharpness not in resolution.

Jimmy
--
J C Brown
--JC,

I don't mean to pick on you or argue with you. I prefer to keep conversation on a friendly level...especially here on the Panny forum. But I'm interested to know how you define the difference between "resolution" and "sharpness".
I think you'll find they're indistinguishable from each other...

Were not talking about in-camera processing sharpness, we're talking about lens sharpness itself. If a lens is "sharper", it will always add "resolution" to any camera.
-Kurt Horsley
 
Of course, the true focal length doesn't change...but anytime you
crop the sensor, you crop into the lens too...as much as 50% when
using the EZ zoom. That's the OUTER 50%...which is significantly
inferior to the sweet spot in the center of ALL lenses. The center of
all lenses are brighter, sharper and have less light falloff than the
edges do. It also induces less chromatic aberration. That's why
people choose to stop down lenses for the sharpest results. Ez zoom
does exactly that... ... ... which is why it also slightly changes
the f stop without changing the true focal length of the lens.
This is not true. The difference in brightness between center and corners is not translated into F stops. At equal true focal length, the F stop does not change. For a certain sized object, the brightness and detail will not change.
If people would do the test correctly, and not add their own
twist, the difference would be more obvious.
Could you point out the possible twist in my second test? Or noticeable differences, enlarged if needed?
It becomes clear to me
that people don't understand lenses (or cameras) enough to know how
to do the test correctly...and therefore don't appreciate the
importance of doing that. They simply expect to point and shoot and
see some type of miracle improvement that isn't going to happen.
I think that's more of an assumption about how they test than anything else.

But what's true is that if there are differences, some people would like to see that translated into real world differences too and not just black and white testcharts in a closed studio environment. In any case, I have yet to see a difference in either situation. A difference that is anything else than mild processing differences.
The
improvement in EZ zoom is subtle, but definitely there. If cropping
into lenses didn't improve image quality and sharpness, we'd all be
shooting prime lenses and just crop them...and wouldn't have zoom's
at all.
Not sure how that comparison works.
 
They were shot at the same focal length, following the theory you
posted that the EZ zoom shot wil be brighter/faster.
--And was it?
You need to use full zoom in normal(10mp) mode to get the maximum
increase in f stop using EZ zoom. Since the 10mp image was only shot
at 290mm, the increase will be somewhat less than if it were shot at
full zoom.
-Kurt Horsley
Say full zoom on my FZ18 would be 504mm @ 10MP, F4.2. Using your theory, we switch to 3MP EZ zoom and go to 504mm @ 3MP, F3.6. Indeed the F stop is lower. This is however not due to the center of the lens being brighter. This is because we're simply at about 309mm @ 10MP, not all the way zoomed in to the true maximal focal length and cropping out the center 3MP. The fact we're at about 11x zoom allows us using a brighter aperture than max zoom.

Thus, if we would print equally large with both the EZ 3MP version and the 10MP full zoom version, the difference in detail/artifacts would look about the same as shown in the test above.
 
They were shot at the same focal length, following the theory you
posted that the EZ zoom shot wil be brighter/faster.
--And was it?
You need to use full zoom in normal(10mp) mode to get the maximum
increase in f stop using EZ zoom. Since the 10mp image was only shot
at 290mm, the increase will be somewhat less than if it were shot at
full zoom.
-Kurt Horsley
Say full zoom on my FZ18 would be 504mm @ 10MP, F4.2. Using your
theory, we switch to 3MP EZ zoom and go to 504mm @ 3MP, F3.6. Indeed
the F stop is lower. This is however not due to the center of the
lens being brighter. This is because we're simply at about 309mm @
10MP, not all the way zoomed in to the true maximal focal length and
cropping out the center 3MP.
--That's right...since the ACTUAL focal length of the lens does not change, you're simply using less zoom to achieve the same image scale. This is how people confuse fstop with EZ zoom. The camera f stop does not change, but the brightness of the lens does...since you're not using as much of it's zoom capability as you would have to do using 10MP. Less zoom always mean brighter/faster images...unless you have a constant aperture lens, like the one on the FZ10 and 20.
-Kurt Horsley
 
Of course, the true focal length doesn't change...but anytime you
crop the sensor, you crop into the lens too...as much as 50% when
using the EZ zoom. That's the OUTER 50%...which is significantly
inferior to the sweet spot in the center of ALL lenses. The center of
all lenses are brighter, sharper and have less light falloff than the
edges do. It also induces less chromatic aberration. That's why
people choose to stop down lenses for the sharpest results. Ez zoom
does exactly that... ... ... which is why it also slightly changes
the f stop without changing the true focal length of the lens.
This is not true. The difference in brightness between center and
corners is not translated into F stops. At equal true focal length,
the F stop does not change. For a certain sized object, the
brightness and detail will not change.
--Sorry, but I must disagree. Cropping into the actual lens itself (which always happens when cropping the sensor for EZ zoom) does indeed prevent loss of brightness at any given focal length. It doesn't change the f stop of the camera, it changes the effective (not actual) speed of the lens...because you're using less of it's zoom capability.

Take a zoom, or any other lens...and then block it's aperture with the iris of your camera, and you'll alway force a darker/longer exposure. EZ zoom is exactly the opposite...instead of stopping down the lens, it crops away the otter edges WITHOUT LOSS OF BRIGHTNESS.

To some extent, a simple image crop will do the same thing. Were it not for in-camera lens correction, you could see this quite easily. Edge distortion and light falloff were the bane of film photographers. You can avoid it completely with EZ zoom.
-Kurt Horsley
 
When a thread like this goes on and on with some strong disagreements, there is a tendency for some involved to think they are offending others or have overstayed their welcome.

Well, from where I sit, this is among the most interesting and useful threads I've ever seen on a camera forum. Generally, EZ zoom is dismissed quickly as "in camera cropping", then made to seem worthless by the poster claiming they can do better without EZ zoom and that it's just a gimmick.

Until this thread, all I knew was that it gave me a little extra reach while maintaining 5mp in my case. Although I used it, I felt I was maybe giving up something I needed. I now see other benefits, thanks to the posters. Better or worse images with EZ zoom? Well, in my FZ28 the pictures seem very slightly better in some cases,, certainly no worse than the 10mp shots w/o EZ zoom. That sort of seals the deal for me.

I believe my eyes.

Jack
 
Of course, the true focal length doesn't change...but anytime you
crop the sensor, you crop into the lens too...as much as 50% when
using the EZ zoom. That's the OUTER 50%...which is significantly
inferior to the sweet spot in the center of ALL lenses. The center of
all lenses are brighter, sharper and have less light falloff than the
edges do. It also induces less chromatic aberration. That's why
people choose to stop down lenses for the sharpest results. Ez zoom
does exactly that... ... ... which is why it also slightly changes
the f stop without changing the true focal length of the lens.
This is not true. The difference in brightness between center and
corners is not translated into F stops. At equal true focal length,
the F stop does not change. For a certain sized object, the
brightness and detail will not change.
--Sorry, but I must disagree. Cropping into the actual lens itself
(which always happens when cropping the sensor for EZ zoom) does
indeed prevent loss of brightness at any given focal length. It
doesn't change the f stop of the camera, it changes the effective
(not actual) speed of the lens...because you're using less of it's
zoom capability.
Take a zoom, or any other lens...and then block it's aperture with
the iris of your camera, and you'll alway force a darker/longer
exposure. EZ zoom is exactly the opposite...instead of stopping down
the lens, it crops away the otter edges WITHOUT LOSS OF BRIGHTNESS.
To some extent, a simple image crop will do the same thing. Were it
not for in-camera lens correction, you could see this quite easily.
Edge distortion and light falloff were the bane of film
photographers. You can avoid it completely with EZ zoom.
-Kurt Horsley
You're mixing up things. Yes, zoomlenses tend to have more light falloff in corners than for example prime lenses. And yes, by cropping the outer areas away, you lose most of those compromised areas. But the light falloff is not the reason why EZ zoom shows lower F stops at equal focal length compared to 10MP without EZ zoom. I already explained that in an earlier post. It's because you're using a lower actual focal length. Which for a certain sized object, means less detail (less pixels covering that object) too. Not much different from cropping afterwards, which doesn't really change the F stop either.
 
The camera f
stop does not change, but the brightness of the lens does...since
you're not using as much of it's zoom capability as you would have to
do using 10MP. Less zoom always mean brighter/faster images...unless
you have a constant aperture lens, like the one on the FZ10 and 20.
-Kurt Horsley
The F stop is the brightness of the lens. The brightness of the lens increases because you're using less zoom, resulting in a lower F stop aswell. But the image scale is not the same. The only thing being the same is the framing.

The only confusing part I often see is MP related to focal length. To have an idea (comparatively speaking) of what we're actually capturing (detail wise) at the long end, it would be better to list both the focal length (35mm equiv) and the resolution.
 
JortS29 wrote:
It's because you're
using a lower actual focal length. Which for a certain sized object,
means less detail (less pixels covering that object) too. Not much
different from cropping afterwards, which doesn't really change the F
stop either.
--Yes, I've said that before...and I think you're right, whichever setting saturates the most pixels with your subject is the one that will show the most overall resolution.

But I think that's why 5MP EZ mode show slightly more detail than 3EZ or a 10 MP crop.

A regular 10MP crop might start with more pixels, but it depends on how many of them you crop away. If 5Mp EZ mode shows a larger image scale, it may indeed saturate more pixels with that larger image than a 10 MP crop would.
It would depend on you subject, your crop and how many pixels you started with.

The true way to check this is to shoot the image both with and without EZ zoom, then crop BOTH images (if needed) until your subject is exactly the same size in both pictures. Then check the exif and see which has the larger file size. The larger file will most likely show the most detail.

I suspect 5MP EZ mode will be slightly larger file size than your 10MP crop...especially when shooting exceedingly small objects at long distances.

-Kurt Horsley
 
Setter Dog wrote
When a thread like this goes on and on with some strong disagreements, there is a tendency for some involved to think they are offending others or have overstayed their welcome.
Well, from where I sit, this is among the most interesting and useful threads I've ever seen on a camera forum. Snip……
I now see other benefits, thanks to the posters. Better or worse images with EZ zoom? Well, in my FZ28 the pictures seem very slightly better in some cases,, certainly no worse than the 10mp shots w/o EZ zoom. That sort of seals the deal for me.
I believe my eyes.
In view of the way it was developing, I was very much inclined to drop out of this thread. However, in view of the above comments from Jack, I now feel that I should perhaps try to find the time to prepare a response to explain my reasoning and test results so that others can decide for themselves.

Jimmy

--
J C Brown
 
I don't mean to pick on you or argue with you. I prefer to keep conversation on a friendly level...especially here on the Panny forum. But I'm interested to know how you define the difference between "resolution" and "sharpness".
I think you'll find they're indistinguishable from each other...
Were not talking about in-camera processing sharpness, we're talking about lens sharpness itself. If a lens is "sharper", it will always add "resolution" to any camera.
To the best of my knowledge, 'resolution' is a quantitative quality, i.e. one which can be measured, whereas sharpness is a qualitative property and as such is not so easily measured.

Examples of the definition of the "Resolution" of the eye are the ability to distinguish between two closely separated objects such as a pair of dots or between alternate black and white lines of equal thickness.

The generally accepted resolution for the human eye is 1 arc minute which is equivalent to about 0.3 milliradian, mR. That figure corresponds to 1/a = 1.7 for visual acuity specified in the following link: http://webvision.med.utah.edu/KallSpatial.html .
You may also find the following links of interest.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_acuity
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/1997-05/864446241.Ph.r.html

Now let us consider the case of a camera making an image of a grating, i.e. a pattern of alternate black and white lines.

For a grating in which each line has a width of 0.5 mm, the pitch between a pair of black or white lines is 1.0 mm and the grating is described as having a spacing of 1 line pair per mm, LPM.

Now consider what happens when a lens is focussed on such a grating as it is moved away gradually. As the image of the grating becomes smaller, a point will eventually be reached where the lines in the image blend together and can no longer be distinguished as pairs of alternate dark and light lines. If at the last point at which the lines in the image can be distinguished as pairs, the pitch between a pair of dark or light lines is 0.01 mm then the “Resolution” of the lens is defined as 100 LPM.

In the above example the lines in the grating are alternately black and white like a checkerboard. It is also possible to have a grating in which the change from black to white and back again occurs gradually from the centre of the black lines to the centre of the white lines. That change could take a variety of forms from a simple straight line variation to a sine wave or any other shape you care to think of.

In each case the “Resolution” would be the same, since it is “mathematically defined” from the pitch between consecutive dark or light bands. However the appearance of these gratings or of images of similar form would be quite different. It is the difference between the sharply defined edges of the first example, which is like a square wave and the smoother changes of the triangular, sinusoidal or some other wave form which are qualitative rather than quantitative that I have described as “Sharpness”.

For a fuller description here is the Wikipedia definition of Sharpness.

Perceived sharpness is a combination of both resolution and acutance: it is thus a combination of the captured resolution, which cannot be changed in processing, and of acutance, which can be so changed.

Properly, perceived sharpness is the steepness of transitions (slope), which is change in output value divided by change in position – hence it is maximized for large changes in output value (as in sharpening filters) and small changes in position (high resolution).

Coarse grain or noise can, like sharpening filters, increase acutance, hence increasing the perception of sharpness, even though they degrade the signal-to-noise ratio.

The term "critical sharpness" is sometimes heard (by analogy with critical focus) for "obtaining maximal optical resolution", as limited by the sensor/film and lens, and in practice means minimizing camera shake – using a tripod or alternative support, mirror lock-up, a cable release or timer, image stabilizing lenses – and optimal aperture, usually 2–3 stops down from wide-open.

I trust that is sufficient to explain how I define the difference between "resolution" and "sharpness".

Jimmy

--
J C Brown
 
I can't believe this thread is still going on. Very interesting though. I've read all of the discussions, so what is the final conclusion boys is EZ zoom at 5mp better?

Regards
Steve
 
whichever
setting saturates the most pixels with your subject is the one that
will show the most overall resolution.
I've been following this thread but I can't understand what you mean by "saturates the most pixels". I've only come across saturated pixels in reference to blown highlights, where the pixel is saturated with light.
A regular 10MP crop might start with more pixels, but it depends on
how many of them you crop away.
If you take a 10MP pic of a scene (that is, a JPEG image composed of 10 megapixels), and then take a 5MP EZ zoom pic of the same scene, by just using the joystick to alter the image size from 10MP to 5MP, that is without altering the zoom setting of the cam (the focal length), then you will be "cropping away" the outer 5MP from the 10 MP image, leaving the central 5MP. This central 5MP image will then look identical to the image you get if you crop the 5MP centre from the original 10MP image.

Cheers,
Ian
--
Ianperegian
 
whichever
setting saturates the most pixels with your subject is the one that
will show the most overall resolution.
I've been following this thread but I can't understand what you mean
by "saturates the most pixels". I've only come across saturated
pixels in reference to blown highlights, where the pixel is saturated
with light.

You have it right, saturation of pixels means how many are capturing your subject...only your subject, not the part you crop away.

If you take a 10MP pic of a scene (that is, a JPEG image composed of
10 megapixels), and then take a 5MP EZ zoom pic of the same scene, by
just using the joystick to alter the image size from 10MP to 5MP,
that is without altering the zoom setting of the cam (the focal
length), then you will be "cropping away" the outer 5MP from the 10
MP image, leaving the central 5MP. This central 5MP image will then
look identical to the image you get if you crop the 5MP centre from
the original 10MP image.
--That's true to some extent...and I've mentioned it four times in this thread. But when you crop an image, you crop far more than pixels. You also crop away part of the image that was metered...a part that may also have been the focus point. Your cropped image may not even be in focus.

You also crop away not only the outer edge of the sensor, but also the outer part of the lens. I've already gone over that before. Edge sharpness is improved, light falloff is eliminated, and regardless of the true focal length of the lens, the equivalent exposure will ALWAYS be faster using EZ zoom. Not just because you're using a lower focal length to capture the same image scale, but because the angle of light entering the lens is almost directly parallel with the sensor. That does not happen near the edge of a lens...

Do this...set your camera to some long focal length. Lets say 20X. DO NOT change the true focal length for either image. Now shoot a 10mp image and a 5EZ image. Remember, DO NOT move the lens at all.

Despite the difference in image scale, both images should show the exact same shutter speed. That's one of the benefits of EZ zoom...larger image scale without penalty of slower shutter speed.
-Kurt Horsley
 

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