Are we killing independent stores or is it really them?

We have local brick and mortar camera shop taking orders online, and they are thriving.

In facts, there are a whole "virtual mall" for brick and mortar gadget shops to take orders online and deliver them either by post or by courier.

Your local camera shops might be interested in this kind of online presence....

--
http://hdr.strivearth.com | canon fodder

Adam Smith's invisible hand has slapped independent retailers upside the head these last ten years.

That is the way it is. I don't like it but I will have to get over it.

Why on earth are we surprised that the real is being displaced by the corporate product? The real and funky is too inconvenient to be supported.
Heaven forbid that we actually have to pay more for our luxuries.
Those retailers are fiends for having a location that costs too much to support.
How dare they try to pay for health insurance for their employees.

They deserve to go out of business for not having a five million dollar inventory that I can schmooze over on Saturdays. Beside that they were rude to me for asking if they could match the online stores.

Not only that, but i t was the OWNER that threw me out. That would never happen at BestBuy!

Those are just the whining losers I hear on these and other boards.

What comprises the bulk of the loss is the huge mass just believing that WalMart has all they need and the price will be the lowest.

G10Rebel said:

We have local brick and mortar camera shop taking orders online, and
they are thriving.

In facts, there are a whole "virtual mall" for brick and mortar
gadget shops to take orders online and deliver them either by post or
by courier.

Your local camera shops might be interested in this kind of online
presence....

Click to expand...

Makes sense to me. I think anything to avoid having a huge, perhaps, multimillion dollar inventory at each small store would improve the business model. This is particularly true of stock that have a short life before being obselete, like digital cameras.

Perhaps a regional warehouse of stock that can be shipped rapidly after order and a small number of hands-on samples in the B&M stores.

300+ reasonably stocked stores has too much inventory tied up. I think that is the model of the restructured Ritz. Can't say I think it will work.

--mamallama

--mamallama

aruzinsky said:

with high sales and real estate tax.

Click to expand...

I think you're a little confused. It's the other way around where I live. The village keeps setting up tax abatement and incentive zones to attract businesses. In exchange for locating in the downtown area, the businesses get to skip the taxes and get assistance with financing...all kinds of goodies from the local government. Small businesses do very well in good times because our village surrounds the train station taking people from the suburbs to downtown Chicago. There's nothing more convenient that shopping on your way home from the train station or having dinner at a local restaurant.

aruzinsky said:

Any "economic stimulus"
payments from the federal government are confiscated by local
governments.

Click to expand...

You say that as if it were actually happening. As far as I know, the stimulus package hasn't reached small businesses yet. If I'm wrong, please tell me where you know that local taxing bodies are taking stimulus monies from businesses.

aruzinsky said:

And I remind you that Obama is from Chicago which has
the highest sales tax in the USA.

Click to expand...

Um...here's where your argument breaks down. Obama was a senator. The tax in Chicago is set by the Chicago City Council. The tax in the county surrounding Chicago, Cook County, is set by the Cook County Council. Obama has had no opportunity to be involved with parking fees, license fees, etc. Talk to da Mayor or the governor about that.

aruzinsky said:

Obama knows his "economic
stimulus" is going to crooked local politicians in Illinois who ruin
the economy by raising taxes, license fees, parking fees, etc.

Click to expand...

Obama has 50 states to worry about. I sincerely hope that there will be more controls built into the plan as it's being developed now than the way money was given away last fall---by a conservative administration.

It's expected that the first stimulus dollars will come for infrastructure spending like roads and bridges. It's up to all of us to watch our politicians like hawks and encourage our state and local media to do the same as the money is dolled out.

Because of one scandalous governor after another, there's more than the usual pressure for political reform in Illinois.

aruzinsky said:

Meanwhile, local liberals pretend that this is not the exact opposite
of economic stimulous.

Click to expand...

I am a local liberal, and I'm not pretending anything. I'm watching with open eyes and ears. One way or the other, we'll see what our governments can deliver.

--
http://www.pbase.com/soenda

T3's experience is very common. I, for one, have never met a single salesman that was helpful in buying a camera (save for a pro shop I accidentally went into where they were honest about what they carried, and refused to comment on entry level bodies since they did not have experience on them).

Don't get me wrong, I think that sales is usually unfairly looked down on as a job. Knowing and understanding the features of a camera, being able to identify which are the differentiators in respect of its competitors and being able to map those to the actual needs of (many times uninformed) customers takes skills and experience. But that's not what you get (sure there are exceptions).

It's the same with many products and services which are the object of conspicuous consumption: when there's a boom in demand , everybody and his bald aunt sells them and it doesn't matter if you're good at it, later competition in price starts and when demand stabilizes only the best (or the ones with a sound business model) remain.

I'm sorry but it lefts out 90% of stores. Many big stores because they high inexperienced youngsters that are supposes to sell a camera and a videogame and many Mom &Pop stores that didn't bother to train themselves and their team in the newer technology, etc...

--
-------------------------------------------------------
My Galleries: http://webs.ono.com/igonzalezbordes/index.html

MusicDoctorDJ said:

It definately is much harder for B&M stores to compete when they have
to, by law, collect sales taxes that are often near 10% of the
purchase price of the items being bought by the customer.

Click to expand...

By law in most states, you're still required to pay the sales tax on out-of-state Internet or mail order purchases. It's called Use Tax. Here in Pennsylvania, there's a line on your annual tax return to declare it, and most businesses are required to pay it with their monthly sales tax collections.

But most people ignore it. I'd strongly suggest that you don't. As states get more and more strapped for revenue during this recession, they'll start doing what Utah just did, and ask you to self audit. If you refuse or the numbers don't look right to them, you'll really get audited, and then you won't like the penalties and interest that you've managed to accrue.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (19 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com

Besides our 3 Ritz cameras that survived we have one camera store in our city. The store adapted . the owner took about 1/3 of a fairly large store and beecame the local expert in Sony LCD TVs and Audio equipment. He has an average inventory and keeps his prices competitive with the big box stores.

OK on camera equipment too and has a used area where they sell on consignment. Our other big camera store stood pat and is gone.

All American businesses (and workers) have to adapt to survive.

All DSLRS can take great pictures
http://www.pixel-peeper.com/
Check my Photo Blog
http://parisea.blogspot.com/

aruzinsky said:

with high sales and real estate tax. Any "economic stimulus"
payments from the federal government are confiscated by local
governments. And I remind you that Obama is from Chicago which has
the highest sales tax in the USA. Obama knows his "economic
stimulus" is going to crooked local politicians in Illinois who ruin
the economy by raising taxes, license fees, parking fees, etc.
Meanwhile, local liberals pretend that this is not the exact opposite
of economic stimulous.
--
(Author of SAR Image Processor and anomic sociopath)
Tell me your thoughts on Plato's allegory of the cave.

Click to expand...

Most of the developed world has MUCH higher sale taxes than the US, yet the rest of developed world seems to have less problems with loss of retail.

Also, tt seems to me that the most capitalist economies in the developed world are the ones who are being hardest hit by recession, such as US and Iceland. And yet socialist countries like Canada seem to be doing much better. Not one single Canadian bank has filed for bankruptcy so far. How many US banks have filed for bankruptcy in the past year?

a few days ago I was in a radio shack trying to get some repair/build parts. no, I didn't want CANDY that they now sell, I wanted PARTS. they don't sell much of those anymore. but want a PHONE? sheesh - lots of phones and stupid toys from china.

some guy came in and asked for a db9 connector. the sales girl there asked 'what is it used for?'. he said its a computer cable. 'ah! ok, computers are over there to the right'.

she had NO idea what a db9 connector was.

joke about rat shack salesdroids all you want, but at least in the bay area, they USED to know a db9 from a 2n2222. now, the people working there are simply 'cashiers' and nothing more. they know where in their store their stuff is located but that's about all!

pity.

its not just about cameras but its the 'dumbing down' of america.

we don't make things here, we almost don't design things here anymore and now, we can't even SELL things here with any shred of knowledge about the items.

it might as well go all mailorder. the days of running down to the local electronics store are mostly over, even in silicon valley where I live.

why would it be different for photo?

--
Bryan
(pic stream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works ) ~

I strongly suggest that you not pay use tax while accepting all the penalties on out of state purchases that your state can prove you made. Also, check which states share information on online purchases with you state.

Thom Hogan said:

MusicDoctorDJ said:

It definately is much harder for B&M stores to compete when they have
to, by law, collect sales taxes that are often near 10% of the
purchase price of the items being bought by the customer.

Click to expand...

By law in most states, you're still required to pay the sales tax on
out-of-state Internet or mail order purchases. It's called Use Tax.
Here in Pennsylvania, there's a line on your annual tax return to
declare it, and most businesses are required to pay it with their
monthly sales tax collections.

But most people ignore it. I'd strongly suggest that you don't. As
states get more and more strapped for revenue during this recession,
they'll start doing what Utah just did, and ask you to self audit. If
you refuse or the numbers don't look right to them, you'll really get
audited, and then you won't like the penalties and interest that
you've managed to accrue.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (19 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com

Click to expand...

--
(Author of SAR Image Processor and anomic sociopath)
Tell me your thoughts on Plato's allegory of the cave.

Soenda said:

aruzinsky said:

with high sales and real estate tax.

Click to expand...

I think you're a little confused. It's the other way around where I
live. The village keeps setting up tax abatement and incentive zones
to attract businesses. In exchange for locating in the downtown area,
the businesses get to skip the taxes and get assistance with
financing...all kinds of goodies from the local government. Small
businesses do very well in good times because our village surrounds
the train station taking people from the suburbs to downtown Chicago.
There's nothing more convenient that shopping on your way home from
the train station or having dinner at a local restaurant.

Soenda said:

Any "economic stimulus"
payments from the federal government are confiscated by local
governments.

Click to expand...

You say that as if it were actually happening. As far as I know, the
stimulus package hasn't reached small businesses yet. If I'm wrong,
please tell me where you know that local taxing bodies are taking
stimulus monies from businesses.

Click to expand...

I didn't say "stimulus package payed directly to businesses." I was unspecific to include the "Tax Rebates" payed to individuals for the purpose of stimulating business sales. This money is confiscated by your local government in the form of sales and other taxes and fees.

Soenda said:

Soenda said:

And I remind you that Obama is from Chicago which has
the highest sales tax in the USA.

Click to expand...

Um...here's where your argument breaks down. Obama was a senator. The
tax in Chicago is set by the Chicago City Council. The tax in the
county surrounding Chicago, Cook County, is set by the Cook County
Council. Obama has had no opportunity to be involved with parking
fees, license fees, etc. Talk to da Mayor or the governor about that.

Click to expand...

"Um..." is an affectation.

Obama is remiss for not entering local politics with the intention of ending corruption instead of becoming a senator. "All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing.", except "good men" such as Obama, who do nothing, are not good men.

Soenda said:

Soenda said:

Obama knows his "economic
stimulus" is going to crooked local politicians in Illinois who ruin
the economy by raising taxes, license fees, parking fees, etc.

Click to expand...

Obama has 50 states to worry about. I sincerely hope that there will
be more controls built into the plan as it's being developed now than
the way money was given away last fall---by a conservative
administration.

It's expected that the first stimulus dollars will come for
infrastructure spending like roads and bridges. It's up to all of us
to watch our politicians like hawks and encourage our state and local
media to do the same as the money is dolled out.

Because of one scandalous governor after another, there's more than
the usual pressure for political reform in Illinois.

Click to expand...

The voters of Crook county have a long history of entusiastically electing crooks and these voters are genetically the same as elsewhere. So, unless you can recommend a new gene theropy, they will continue to enthusiastically elect crooks.

Incidentally, for exactly that reason, I believe that Saddam Hussein would have won a fair election in Iraq. Too bad there is nobody to liberate me from Crook County, IL.

Soenda said:

Soenda said:

Meanwhile, local liberals pretend that this is not the exact opposite
of economic stimulous.

Click to expand...

I am a local liberal, and I'm not pretending anything. I'm watching
with open eyes and ears. One way or the other, we'll see what our
governments can deliver.

Click to expand...

There were less business failures during the Carter Administration even though inflation and unemployment were higher. Major differences between now and then include:

1. There was less sales tax and state income tax.

2. On average, local governments were smaller per capita.

3. The prime interest rate was around 20% and now is around 4.5%. Similarly, bank CDs have proportional interest rates. Now, the federal goverment discourages saving money and thereby promotes debt by businesses as well as individuals.

Since I don't see the above being addressed by Obama or the news media, I don't expect much improvement of the economic crisis.
--
(Author of SAR Image Processor and anomic sociopath)
Tell me your thoughts on Plato's allegory of the cave.

Thom Hogan said:

Here in Pennsylvania, there's a line on your annual tax return to
declare it, and most businesses are required to pay it with their
monthly sales tax collections.

But most people ignore it. I'd strongly suggest that you don't.

Click to expand...

It's also worth noting that when you sign your state return most returns include a declaration of perjury wherein your signature is your promise everything on the return's "kosher." Ignore the use tax and sign anyway, and it's that much more fuel on the fire when they come to roast you.

--
Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video

PixelMover said:

I miss the days when all the local
'pros', regardless of brand, would meet there on a friday afternoon,
exhange b*llsh*t, compare gear, chat with the owner/proprietor and
then head off to the pub for more tall tales and legends.
Amazon/Adorama/B&H/Warehose Express won't do that for you.

Click to expand...

Maybe not sponsor a Friday night gabfest, but (speaking only for B&H), we sponsor numerous (free) customer events in our store in a theater exclusively devoted to customer events and education sessions. We sponsor and attend quite a few trade shows and conventions, are affiliated with numerous trade and education organizations (including ICP, Maine Photo Workshop, NAPP the PPofA and so on). We work diligently to make our website an informative educational resource. We have a podcast section on Youtube, participate in Twitter, Facebook, here and I have about a hundred other forums in my bookmarks I visit daily or weekly or monthly as seems suitable.

There's much about the "good ol' days" I miss too, but times change and for better or worse we and the marketplace are evolving. Maybe some of the "good" from the "ol' days" is being lost as we move forward, but in many cases we've replaced a smattering of local individuals chatting over beer with a wider group of people online who can benefit from what's available without necessarily having to live close enough to a pro-oriented store to be able to trade ideas and the like with others.

My dad doesn't recall a time before automobiles. I don't recall a time before television. My kid doesn't recall a time when there was no internet and barely recalls when film predominated in photography. What will my kid's kid take for granted?

--
Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video

doady said:

aruzinsky said:

with high sales and real estate tax. Any "economic stimulus"
payments from the federal government are confiscated by local
governments. And I remind you that Obama is from Chicago which has
the highest sales tax in the USA. Obama knows his "economic
stimulus" is going to crooked local politicians in Illinois who ruin
the economy by raising taxes, license fees, parking fees, etc.
Meanwhile, local liberals pretend that this is not the exact opposite
of economic stimulous.
--
(Author of SAR Image Processor and anomic sociopath)
Tell me your thoughts on Plato's allegory of the cave.

Click to expand...

Most of the developed world has MUCH higher sale taxes than the US,
yet the rest of developed world seems to have less problems with loss
of retail.

Also, tt seems to me that the most capitalist economies in the
developed world are the ones who are being hardest hit by recession,
such as US and Iceland. And yet socialist countries like Canada seem
to be doing much better. Not one single Canadian bank has filed for
bankruptcy so far. How many US banks have filed for bankruptcy in
the past year?

Click to expand...

The current economic problems in other countries originated in the USA therefore there is a time lag in peak crisis between the USA and other countries. We'll see how bad it gets in Canada later.

Furthermore, Canada's local Provincial Sales Tax rates are substantially lower than that for Chicago, IL.
--
(Author of SAR Image Processor and anomic sociopath)
Tell me your thoughts on Plato's allegory of the cave.

even though inflation and unemployment were apparently higher. I base "Less business failures" on my observances at that time.

Major differences between now and then include:

1. On average, local governments were smaller per capita and local tax rates were smaller.

2. The prime interest rate was around 20% and now it is around 4.5%. Similarly, bank CDs have proportional interest rates. I remember my bank offering 18%, 30 year CDs. Now, the federal government discourages saving money via a low Fed Funds Rate and thereby promotes the opposite of saving which is debt by businesses as well as individuals. An economy based on lending is an economy based on the promises of liars.

What other differences can you think of?
--
(Author of SAR Image Processor and anomic sociopath)
Tell me your thoughts on Plato's allegory of the cave.

henryp said:

It's also worth noting that when you sign your state return most
returns include a declaration of perjury wherein your signature is
your promise everything on the return's "kosher."

Click to expand...

I've gotton by, in the past, by simply wrapping a gherkin in with my forms.

(I didn't know it had to be a specific kind , though!)



--
Bryan
(pic stream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works ) ~

henryp said:

PixelMover said:

I miss the days when all the local
'pros', regardless of brand, would meet there on a friday afternoon,
exhange b*llsh*t, compare gear, chat with the owner/proprietor and
then head off to the pub for more tall tales and legends.
Amazon/Adorama/B&H/Warehose Express won't do that for you.

Click to expand...

Maybe not sponsor a Friday night gabfest, but (speaking only for
B&H), we sponsor numerous (free) customer events in our store in a
theater exclusively devoted to customer events and education
sessions. We sponsor and attend quite a few trade shows and
conventions, are affiliated with numerous trade and education
organizations (including ICP, Maine Photo Workshop, NAPP the PPofA
and so on). We work diligently to make our website an informative
educational resource. We have a podcast section on Youtube,
participate in Twitter, Facebook, here and I have about a hundred
other forums in my bookmarks I visit daily or weekly or monthly as
seems suitable.

There's much about the "good ol' days" I miss too, but times change
and for better or worse we and the marketplace are evolving. Maybe
some of the "good" from the "ol' days" is being lost as we move
forward, but in many cases we've replaced a smattering of local
individuals chatting over beer with a wider group of people online
who can benefit from what's available without necessarily having to
live close enough to a pro-oriented store to be able to trade ideas
and the like with others.

My dad doesn't recall a time before automobiles. I don't recall a
time before television. My kid doesn't recall a time when there was
no internet and barely recalls when film predominated in photography.
What will my kid's kid take for granted?

--

Click to expand...

Yes. Change is the constant. I am probably around your father's age, maybe older, and I don't come close to recalling a no-car era. Come to think of it, neither did MY father, who was born in 1900, and the cars were a bit different then. He walked off a small farm in Kentucky in '17, walked to Detroit to work for Henry Ford. He went from there to the Oklahoma oil fields where he was a mechanic for several years, finally ending up in Mount Vernon, NY...he did the Okie trip by train, and used his own car to come to NY a few years later.

I'll take my life today over his, and my granddaughters wouldn't care to live as I lived as a teenager, regardless of all the nostalgia one sees for the '40s and '50s these days. No iPod? No cell phones? No TV (which, IMO, was a blessing)? No PCs? Well, actually, we did have TV, but a tiny block & white set was far beyond our reach in '49 and '50, though by that time (I think) there were three networks, which is the way it stayed for decades. Of course, at least three of the five grandchildren would love to get their hands on my first new car, a '57 Chev convertible 283 V8 (but, then, so would I, or even down the line to the '68 Barracuda Formula S I bought new and didn't really appreciate).

I did live in a small city--Albany, NY--at a time when week day or weekend gatherings around the counters at the local camera store were of benefit. I've learned 10 times as much in a month on-line as I did in several years hanging out there, though. I've learned probably 10 or 20 times as much as I did while associated, one on one, with the lead photographer of a tiny TV station I worked at in Schenectady, too. Yet Paul was very, very good, and very very willing to help.

What I miss: the camaradarie, where some teasing went on, but where mean-spiritedness didn't exist, or, if it did exist, was kept well muted. That doesn't exist on-line.

--
Charlie Self
http://www.charlieselfonline.com

aruzinsky said:

There were less business failures during the Carter Administration
even though inflation and unemployment were higher. Major
differences between now and then include:

1. There was less sales tax and state income tax.

2. On average, local governments were smaller per capita.

3. The prime interest rate was around 20% and now is around 4.5%.
Similarly, bank CDs have proportional interest rates. Now, the
federal goverment discourages saving money and thereby promotes debt
by businesses as well as individuals.

Since I don't see the above being addressed by Obama or the news
media, I don't expect much improvement of the economic crisis.

Click to expand...

Nothing will be done about 1&2, but if you want stagflation you might be in luck sooner than you think! Maybe unemployment and inflation rate increase significantly by the end of the year and the Fed may increase interest rates (like they did with Carter) as a Christmas present.

How would that help economy is the one thing I don't get though.

BTW, increasing interest rates to promote savings is the wrong way to do it. The sound (and ethical) one is avoiding inflation (and maybe reducing taxes too).

--
-------------------------------------------------------
My Galleries: http://webs.ono.com/igonzalezbordes/index.html

aruzinsky said:

even though inflation and unemployment were apparently higher. I
base "Less business failures" on my observances at that time.

Click to expand...

Whoa. You're basing this on your observations, not on recorded fact? What kind of cites can you supply that tell the same story you tell from memory?

Inflation certainly was higher during the Carter Administration, but unemployment probably wasn't, and it wasn't as persistent as it seems to be today. I have no idea what business failures cropped up elsewhere, but around here, it seemed to me to be prety close to normal.

Since you also seem to like to make corrections to grammar, or call down "affectations," try using "fewer," not "less."

aruzinsky said:

Major differences between now and then include:

1. On average, local governments were smaller per capita and local
tax rates were smaller.

Click to expand...

There were at least 50 million fewer people in the U.S., too. Here, local tax rates, with the exception of property taxes (which have risen as the value of property has risen) were about the same, as were sales taxes.

aruzinsky said:

2. The prime interest rate was around 20% and now it is around 4.5%.
Similarly, bank CDs have proportional interest rates. I remember my
bank offering 18%, 30 year CDs. Now, the federal government
discourages saving money via a low Fed Funds Rate and thereby
promotes the opposite of saving which is debt by businesses as well
as individuals. An economy based on lending is an economy based on
the promises of liars.

Click to expand...

I think you may be a few months behind the times. The U.S. savings rate has been climbing hard and fast for those people with secure jobs who are finally afraid to go in hock.

An economy based on lending need not be based on liars. This one is freefall now was, of course, liars and incompetents who managed to con the controllers that no controls were best.

aruzinsky said:

What other differences can you think of?

Click to expand...

We--the world, not just the U.S., but the entire developed world, though maybe not as badly as the U.S.--have been living beyond our means for close to three decades now. We're paying for it. Our grandchildren's grandchildren will be paying for it. What other changes do you need? LBJ's Guns & Butter of the '60s during 'Nam has turned to DOD & Glitz and screw the future.

In the boom after WWII, new homes went up at a prodigious rate to fit the needs of homecoming servicemen. Most of those homes were well under 1,000 square feet, especially those in areas like Levittowns...the last time I looked, the average new home in the U.S. was 2,800 square feet, many to be occupied by two, or at most three, people.

I think that gives an excellent look at the differences in attitudes that developed over a half a century.

--
Charlie Self
http://www.charlieselfonline.com

The system is this: The retailers online and in stores seek to maximize their profit, while we, the consumers, seek to get the most for our hard earned money.

Nobody is killing anyone. Everyone had to deal with their own fortune.

In Norway there aren´t any independant stores anymore and the stores compete with the online stores. The stores differ a lot in the staff’s qualifications. Some are really knowledgable and others doesn’t have a clue.

I went into a store to ask for the 45-200 lens for my Panasonic G1. It was the same chain that I bought the camera from the week before. The young guy behind the counter said they didn’t have it and he didn’t bother to look it up to order it for me. He said that they were more into real DSLRs. When I told him the G1 was a better camera than many of the entry level DSLRs he had in store, he just wouldn’t believe it. I told him to update his knowledge by reading on dpreview - and ordered the lens online. I am not killing that store. They are perfectly capable of fixing it themselves.
--
Jan Erik

Freely after John Lennon:
'Life is what happens around you while you´re busy making photos'