River rafting - E1?

Here's the deal: at the end of July I'll be going on two back-to-back river trips in Utah, down the Green and Colorado rivers. Needless to say I want to take lots of photos in the middle of such gorgeous scenery.

However, I currently have just an E-510, and there's no way I'm getting it anywhere near a boat.

I already own two pro-grade lenses - the 14-54 and 50mm macro, and I think they'd cover the focal range/portrait/macro/low-light capability I desire between them. That's no problem.

My plan is to get an E-1 (funded by the sale of the 18-180, which I never use - an excellent trade-up), and basically glue the 14-54 and 8 Gig CF to it and fire away. I'll keep the 50 macro, batts, and maybe my FL-36 in a plastic bag for storage.

I'm looking for advice from E-1 owners who have been in similar situations with lots of water all over the place, and "newer consumer camera" owners who have done the reverse-upgrade to the E-1.

I'm pretty sure I'll be very happy with the output from what I've seen here. High-ISO is not a concern. Mainly looking for usability confusions and just general advice. How are the menus compared to the 510? How's the general speed of the camera? Access of settings via dedicated buttons? I had an E-300 - is it more similar in use to that?

And regarding the water - how careful should I be? I've seen the photos of people drenching their E-1's on purpose to demonstrate, but realistically, should I keep it out or put it away most of the time? (I'm guessing I won't want to have it out all the time, since I'll have to pay attention to the river and don't want to come across as the "aloof photographer", but I'll play it by ear).

Any advice is much appreciated, especially from those who might have done this before. Thanks!

--
'There's nothing worse than a brilliant image of a fuzzy concept' Ansel Adams
(Equipment in Profile)

It weather proof not water proof. If you submerge it, all bets are off. I would invest in a dry bag for storage and only pull it out to shoot. It's still a great camera even by today's standards if you shoot at iso100-200.
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Cheers,
Snowbird_UT

If it's just a lazy float-along, you'll probably be OK. But if you're talking class 3 or 4 rapids, you should be aware that you're going to get very, very wet in the rapids. You'll also be hanging on for dear life. When I go, I wear a wet suit.
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Regards,

Steve

I've gone rafting at the source of the white Nile in Uganda, Africa. This is a rate 5 (highest) rafting. From my experience: Don't even think about bringing a camera along in the raft. Even if you put it in a sealed wetbag, chances are it will take damage from shocks, be lost when the raft flips or, even worse, hurt somebody seriously. I don't even consider these at all unlikely. In fact I'd say that on a rate 5 river, there's almost a 100% chance one of those three will occur. At the very very least it will be in the way, a raft is a rather cramped affair.

When I went rafting we had a supply boat/raft that was more stable and which avoided the harder rapids.If you really want to bring a camera along I suggest you have them store it in the safe boat and only retrieve it for there during lulls in the river.
--
Mithandir,
Eternal Amateur
http://www.wizardtrails.com/

Based solely on my rafting experience, there's no way the E-1/14-54mm will withstand being submerged multiple times along the journey. Besides, it will become a projectile, and if not lost for good, it will probably seriously hurt someone.

For the most part you need both hands to paddle - no time for pictures...

I'd invest in a waterproof camera that can be submerged in water, or a camera with a dedicated waterproof housing.

I took the Olympus C-60 with Olympus housing with me, but I wouldn't recommend it with regards to image quality.

--
Tim
'I haven't been everywhere, but it's on my list.'
E3/E410/7-14/12-60/50-200/25/25/EC-14
http://www.flickr.com/photos/timskis6/

I have been white water rafting approx 3 times and white water canoeing many many times.

I know this:

No SLR (by itself) short of a Nikonos, will withstand the amount of water.

• Dry Bags are extremely tempremental and their ability to keep out water is dependant on how full they are and how carefully the ends were folded. They WILL leak when you least want them to !.

• The only way to take a SLR safely on such a trip is ...

1) in a dry box such as a Pelican ... preferably Yellow or Orange so that you will find it more easily when it drifts down the river after a spill &
2) in an underwater housing such as the one Olympus has for the 410/420.

• A good way to record the trip while in the raft is to use a compact camera that was built to withstand a limited time underwater (both Oly and Pentax make them) or to buy an underwater housing for a compact ... Oly and Canon make them for various models. I bought one for a Canon A70 some years ago and after much abuse the camera and case are still going strong.

My dSLR and lenses sit comfortably in my orange Pelican case until we are firmly on land.

Hope that that helps.

Chas.
--
Doha, Qatar.
==============
Do Not Listen to What I Say ... Listen to What I Mean !.

I think we need some more info. When do you plan to be taking pictures?

I have rafted in class 3-5 rapids and even in the class 3 the hands are needed on the paddles, not a camera. However there are many times in the trips where there are no rapids and the scenery is breath-taking! I would place your camera in a high quality ziplock bag THEN into a dry bag and securely strap it down in the raft when you are about to shoot the rapids.

Though I now have the E-3 I am still amazed at the quality the E-1 has given me throughout the years.

Please share some photos of your trip!

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Sincerely,

James A. Rinner

I was going to do a separate post, but my question is so similar to yours I'm commenting here. I'm going to Costa Rica in May, will be doing some rafting on Rio Savegre, class III rapids, and right now am looking, what previous poster suggested, at a good drybag, ziplocks, and an E420 with the pancake lens. The other alternative is to leave the E420 at home and just bring a point and shoot. On rivers, particularly in the tropical rainforest forest, too many opportunities for filters, ND and polarizers that I really want to E420 there.

--
Gene in Deep South Texas
http://www.pbase.com/lahuasteca/

The descriptions of what happens through the rapids is entirely correct. When going through whitewater, it's a very, VERY violent ride, with people bouncing (in some cases, flying) about within the raft. A loose camera is extremely dangerous, and I'd imagine the guide will prohibit it from being out in such conditions in the first place.

As mentioned, your job of paddling is important to the overall success of the ride. Everyone has to participate for a safe, successful run through the rapids. As mentioned, most tour guides use a safe boat for keeping items dry, especially if your trip offers lunch and dinner, or is a multi-day run. The raft you'll ride in is self-bailing, and you'll find out why in a hurry! Most of these companies rent wet suits. These boats fill with a LOT of cold water.

Rafting companies will never run the general public through Class 5 rapids. At least I've never heard of one in the U.S. doing so. Those rapids are left to the experts with a death wish. Class 3 and 4 rivers are common rafting trips, though, and will provide an EXTREME rush! Really, it's a lot of fun, especially surviving them! Make certain your guide company is safe, experienced and knowledgeable. Most are, but some upstart companies may not have the experienced guides working for them.

If you've never done this before, here's a very good guide company: http://www.westernriver.com/riverscale/

Someone suggested a waterproof compact camera. It's a good idea. I know Oly makes one, and I also know Pentax makes some of the best.

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Regards,

Steve

When I say a safe boat, I mean a separate follow-along boat, not the one you'll be riding in! That would be no fun at all!

Whether or not they'll allow you to use it, that is up to the individual guide company.
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Regards,

Steve

There really is some very valuable information here from everyone. Thanks.

I know my place is at the paddles on the river, and I don't plan to be behind a camera or even keeping it out during rapids or at any inappropriate time. Good to be reminded of that.

For the price of an E-1, I could probably get a waterproof point & shoot, and I don't think I would mind that too much. It would certainly be the safest and most convenient and least obstructive way to go. Has anyone had experience with the Olympus line of waterproof P&S cameras? What about Pentax?

If I were to bring the E-1, I think it might always be 'in the way' - but do you think it's still worth it for the kind of trip I'm taking? Even if it is just for those moments either on shore or during the flat sections?

(By the way, I should have lots of flexibility with the guides - it's a family-friends trip and one family is basically a family of river guides, which is pretty convenient. We're doing one more structured guided trip and one just with these friends that should be pretty flexible. But I will make sure to ask before I assume anything

I'm leaning toward the waterproof P&S idea. Sounds ideal if the quality is good enough. Thanks again.

--
'There's nothing worse than a brilliant image of a fuzzy concept' Ansel Adams
(Equipment in Profile)

trisweb said:

For the price of an E-1, I could probably get a waterproof point &
shoot, and I don't think I would mind that too much. It would
certainly be the safest and most convenient and least obstructive way
to go. Has anyone had experience with the Olympus line of waterproof
P&S cameras? What about Pentax?

Click to expand...

I have and use the Olympus 720SW alongside my E-3 and E-410. I would not recommend it. It's nice to document where you are, but that's about it.

--
Tim
'I haven't been everywhere, but it's on my list.'
E3/E410/7-14/12-60/50-200/25/25/EC-14
http://www.flickr.com/photos/timskis6/

Thanks Tim, that's good to know.

What I really need is about a 6MP 12-120mm eq. zoom with an awesome Fuji SuperCCD... that is waterproof. Anyone?

--
'There's nothing worse than a brilliant image of a fuzzy concept' Ansel Adams
(Equipment in Profile)

I'd be as curious as anyone to see how the E-1 or 3 did on a river trip but I think it's the bulk that would make it a complete liability. I use a housed 410 underwater and the case makes it way bigger than an E-3. I wouldn't take that either.

I had the Mju720 but now have the 770 and can tell you that it works a whole lot better. Both are totally waterproof, we have had the 770 down to 20m on a dive. They are not the best cameras in the world but they are way tougher than pretty much anything else and the surface results can be surprisingly good.

Rob
---------------------------------------------------------
Vivid Oceans and Secret Seas
http://www.1townhouses.co.uk

I took my e-3 through desolation and gray canyons (4 or 5 days) on the green river last year. Obviously, you want a good place to store it, but the rugged build to me made up for the bulk, as I was not afraid of leaving it in a drybag without tons of padding (under my backpacker guitar actually). I pulled it out and even made a few shots while rafting. Just make sure you know where the rapids are.

I'm so glad I brought the camera along. My only regrets were not getting a waterproof bag for my compact camcorder to shoot the rapids, and that I only had my 70-300 in terms of zoom lenses.

Here's some pics:















Now, sure, I could've gotten some of those shots with any camera, and I rushed through the RAW files a bit quick as I look at the pics. But to me, it was worth having the E-3 just for those and a few other unexpected wildlife shots along the way. Unless you are doing a really extreme trip like Cataract canyon, or the Grand Canyon, it's not hard to keep an e-3 safe, and totally worth bringing in my mind.

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Thanks very much, this kind of experience is what I was looking to hear.

We are in fact running Cataract canyon. That's the 2nd trip though, the week prior is up the Green river, somewhat less extreme.

One thing about getting an old E-1 - at least I'd be more willing to beat it up, since it's going to be a used camera that wasn't too expensive. But we'll see.

--
'There's nothing worse than a brilliant image of a fuzzy concept' Ansel Adams
(Equipment in Profile)

I wish I knew what to tell you about Cataract, but I've never run it. I've heard it is really extreme in places. The canyons I ran had a couple borderline class IV rapids. Still, I wouldn't worry about it too much either way as long as you have a good way to protect it from shock and water.

I wouldn't mind using a trip like that as an excuse to by an E-1 I hear how good they are, and you'd still be able to bring some good glass. Have fun out there.
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I just want a bigger lens to look more important.

Hello trisweb!

I'm into whitewater kayaking, so here's my perspective:

Yes, the whitewater rafting ride can get pretty bumpy in the rapids. Sometimes rafts flip (it's not unknown for the raft guides to flip their boat on purpose, if the rapid is safe for a swimmer). And, of course, mistakes happen.

While you're in the rapids, there's no way you can shoot a camera - any camera. And yes, a DSLR will become a dangerous projectile. I can manage a tiny P&S from a kayak - while clinging to a rock with another hand.

On the other hand, between the rapids the raft becomes somewhat more stabile, and you can snap to your heart's content.

In general though, don't expect much from the shots taken while on the water. Your point-of-view is fixed, you can't walk around to where you want to be, your seat is shaking (short exposures are a must), etc.

You may be able to bring onboard a DSLR in a hard case (for example, Pelican or OtterBox) - as long as your raft guide permits it. Different companies have different rules - some may allow you to clip the case to the boat, some won't. Make sure to ask ahead of time.

On a multiday trip, you should have long stretches when you're floating between the rapids, so you'll have time to unclip and open the case, take a few shots, and clip it back. Put a small towel into the case to wipe out any moisture before locking it. This whole routine is pretty fiddly though, and can take away some of the excitement of the trip.

About the waterproof point-and-shoots - they are all pretty bad, because they don't have optical viewfinders and hardly allow any control over the settings.

The one that I have the most hopes for, is the upcoming Panasonic DMC TS-1 (it has 28mm wide angle and image stabilization). That one you can have in a PFD pocket. Olympus line of waterproof P&S don't have a very good reputation IQ-wise.

Hope this helps!

Boris

BorisK1 said:

...
The one that I have the most hopes for, is the upcoming Panasonic DMC
TS-1 (it has 28mm wide angle and image stabilization). That one you
can have in a PFD pocket. Olympus line of waterproof P&S don't have
a very good reputation IQ-wise.

Hope this helps!

Click to expand...

That helps very much, thanks. I love my current Panasonic DMC-FX01 P&S as my everywhere-in-the-pocket camera, and I even thought it might be tough enough for the river if I had a small waterproof case for it. IQ of this new TS-1 looks fairly good for what it is, and the 28mm wide is absolutely a must for me after having a P&S with such a lens for a couple years now - it's very useful to have that range.

Currently in stock at Amazon for the silver version - not a bad idea. Thanks.

More and more I'm moving away from wanting to bring a DSLR. Seems like it would just be a hassle. A good P&S will capture the memories just fine, and hopefully some of the beauty of the scenery as well.

--
'There's nothing worse than a brilliant image of a fuzzy concept' Ansel Adams
(Equipment in Profile)

trisweb wrote:
[...]

trisweb said:

Currently in stock at Amazon for the silver version - not a bad idea.
Thanks.

Click to expand...

How time flies! Didn't realize it was out. And imaging-resource has a review:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/TS1/TS1A.HTM

They pretty much give it a pass with flying colors, except maybe for softness at wide angle. Direct quote: "Although there are other rugged digital cameras -- some more rugged than the TS1 -- none so far comes close to the high image quality of the Panasonic TS1."

trisweb said:

More and more I'm moving away from wanting to bring a DSLR. Seems
like it would just be a hassle.

Click to expand...

Very much so. I've tried both - an SLR camera in a Pelican case in my boat, and a small waterproof P&S in my pocket. There's simply no comparison: A P&S wins hands down. Because of the awkward handling, the SLR stayed in the boat most of the time. I had two spare rolls of film with me, but never ever needed to change a roll on the river.

trisweb said:

A good P&S will capture the memories
just fine, and hopefully some of the beauty of the scenery as well.

Click to expand...

For a ten-day trip, I'd say bring a DSLR too, so you can shoot in the evening. For a two-day - I'd say, leave it at home.

A few tips:

The waterproof P&S often get water drops on the lens. Cut out a 2" x 2" chunk of chamois and bring it with. When you see a drop of water on the camera lens, wring the wet chamois in your fingers (it will create an instant dry spot), and use the dry spot to wipe the lens.

The camera doesn't float, and can get slippery, so use a strap (I strap mine to the inside of the PFD pocket). The strap should be just long enough to use the camera, but not long enough to get tangled up.

Try out the camera and get familiar with its settings well before the trip. You won't have time to fiddle with the settings on the water - and it may be tricky to get the camera to do exactly what you want (there are no "PASM" modes, and the ultra-compacts allow few adjustments). At the very least, learn how to force the camera to open up the aperture (in my Pentax, it's the "Portrait" mode). It doesn't have a hyperfocal mode like some Pentax models, but there's something called "quick focus".

Get a spare battery. In a multiday trip, it makes sense to bring a separate device that can show pictures on a screen - you will want to show the pictures to the rest of the group . So, bring a PSD, a picture frame, or a PDA with an SD slot. This will save the camera battery for the shooting.

The TS1 is supposed to have good video capability - but again, learn how to use it ahead of time.

Good luck!

Boris