Are we killing independent stores or is it really them?

Much has been discussed about photogrpahy chains going under. Same applies to smaller '50 years in business' family run outfits.

Until the last 5 years or so, I was never too bothered with paying 2-5% more for buying local. After all, I've been buying there for years, relied on their personal service, advice, discounts and inside knowledge.

But things have changed. The price difference is not 2-5% anymore. It can be as much as 15-20%. Even if you claim back VAT and write off purcahes and claim them as business investments, 20% DOES make a difference. Especially in these economically unsure days...

Nowadays, when I walk into any independent store or chain, I am met by indifferent, uncaring, uninformed, uninterested 'till ringers', who -even as you try to pay your expensive new lens or camera- are more obsessed with chewing gum, chatting to their colleages or 'texting' their 'mates'... Hey! I'm here paying part of your salary this week, at least pretend to acknowledge me, let alone respect me...

Seriously.. Why should I pay 20% more if I still have to do my own (online) research, get ignored at checkout, staff can't answer my questions and couldn't care less about want to buy?

At this point, I simply cannot feel bad or guilty about saving my money and buying 'online' where -ironically- I've been getting better and more accurate adivice by e-mail than I have had in-store.

Sure, stores have to cut costs to make a profit, but should that mean employing 'till ringers' rather than sales advisors?

I have tried and tried again to buy locally, but unlless the 'old guy owner' is on the till, I simply can't justify spending 15-20% more while being ignored by a clueless, indifferent, teenager...

So what about warranty, exchanges and so on?

Well, I've come across more and more stores who (wrongly!) lay the blame on the manufacturer (I bought it from THEM, not from the manufacturer!) and string you around for 6-8 weeks...

Take amazon for example. Item recieved, doesn't work properly, send it back, within 5 days a brand new one arrived. No 6 week wait. No hassle, Just sorted.

Naturally, local stores cannot compete with those prices. More than a fair comment. But my point is, I would be WILLING to pay the price you ask if you made up for it by expertise, customer service and support. But they don't. Not anymore...

And I do feel sad about this. I miss the days when all the local 'pros', regardless of brand, would meet there on a friday afternoon, exhange b*llsh*t, compare gear, chat with the owner/proprietor and then head off to the pub for more tall tales and legends.
Amazon/Adorama/B&H/Warehose Express won't do that for you.

But now that the 'local' stores are increaslingly just 'Points of sales' and no longer a source of knowledge and feedback, I cannot justify the price difference anymore..

I genuinely want to keep a local 'pro' or even 'semi-pro' store. I'd rather look, feel, touch, see kit before I buy it then buy it based on a number of online reviews. But now that stores won't let you touch, see, mount lenses even in-store. what is the point anymore? I love to go into a store, be recognized, feel welcome and feel valued. Call me a softy, but it is worth it for me. They take care of me, I take care of them... But that seems to have died out...

Called my old trusty local this week, Gotten so smitten with the work-provided D3x that I was seriously considering buying one for myself. Rung them. Got some bloke on the phone who, after 3 minutes got annoyed as he couldn't find a coolpix by that name... Then finally realised what I wanted and quoted a price that was close to the launch speculation rumour price... really..

Then told me he could do me a great deal on the D3x with a Sigma 17-70 2.8-4.5 lens.. "an ideal fit"...

I quietly hung up, realising thier price was over 22% of the most expensive online price... In fact, one of the online sellers (respectable ones, not dodgy ones) would get me a D3x with AF-S 24-70.2.8G for less...

I miss the old days.
But honestly...
I can't morally or financially afford them anymore...

And it doesn't just apply to camera stores.. About a month ago I visited a store in London, south of the Thames, priding itself on it's 'silver' heritage. (Yeah, you know which one I mean..) Oh yes, a store dedicated to B&W film, print, developers, tools, gadgets, papers and chemicals. Took me 1.5 hours to get there from where I live. Couldn't have been more disappointed. Compared to the ignorant kids at currys/jessops, this guy was even more useless. Every question I asked (and these were genuine questions!) were met by a 'whatever you like' reply... I was so geared up about shooting some 'old school' 120 B&W, doing my own developing, but the guy behind the counter actually put me off buying all the kit I needed. He just couldn't care less about helping me getting the kit I needed. I left with less than half I intended to buy, feeling utterly disappointed by the experience....

Really, who is killing the local stores? Is it the internet or are they doing it to themselves? Is anyone here willing to pay the difference if it means better advice, service and working relationship with a local store over anonymous online discounts? Or is it simply that the lack of knowledge, abysmal service and price difference is slowly -regrettably- but surely weedig them off one by one?

Back in the late 60's and through the 80's, there was a store owned by a father and son..Both were avid photographers in 35mm and 2x2. Both had darkrooms in their homes. And the hired help..were just as involved in photography too.

I bought I guess, from age 15-25, dozens of cameras...My first Canon EOS, my first Leica (used), my first Rollie 35, Many many used lenses and darkroom equipment too...They knew I was a looker (long Winded), But, also a buyer (over the years), So they always treated me with respect. and graciously answered all my questions.

By the mid 80's...they had closed shop...they just could not compete with the "Big-Box" pricing...BTW, they were a "Nikon Professional Dealer"...And "Canon Professional Dealer", one of the few in Ft. Laurderdale.

Plus they has HUGE inventory of Current used SLR, Lieca's, Medium Format, Lenses, and more lenses PLUS...tons of "Gadgets" and New and used.

I too miss the more personal well stocked and educated Camera store...

There is B&H, and the like, But don't know if the B&M storefront has knowledgeable sales people, or just knowledgeable til' ringers?

But, the Online experience is good.

--



Arbib

I think it's a combination of both for it takes two to tangle. What I mean by that is local stores are feeling the pinch and really have no choice but to hire that gum chewing teen just out of school for they can't afford to keep or hire an experience salesperson/photographer. Then what you get is a person who only knows how to ring up the sale and nothing more, so you're better off shopping online where you can save $$$. Oh every once in the while you get the owner or an experience person to help you, but chances you getting great help are getting thinner every year because of the online competition and big bargain stores.

The only way this is going to turn around in my opinion is a way for the small business to figure out a way to compete with the big boys. I don't have the answer and if I did I would be doing something right now about it instead of writing this ;-)

There was a gold mine in photographic industry. It was called film. You received it, unboxed it, and sold with a solid margin. No risk. Pro film required a fridge, no big expense. When film was nearing expiring date, you offered a discount. When it was expired, you sold it to the old lady who asked you to load her camera. Film paid for everything: people, electricity, knowledge. There were never big margins in cameras, lenses, everything else.

When film as a mass product died, with the help of sloppy labs and the cost of the whole chain, the industry was left with small margin products. The margin is too small to pay for customer care. We will never get that back. Fortunately we have new ways of knowledge, and so we can take care of ourselves. They are mainly mad of solitude: no more personal chatting with folks who have the same interests. Information is better. The society in itself is worse.
Fabio

More than just the selling of film, it was consumer developing. While there were some other sources, most of the developing was done through the camera store and even more so if it came to extra prints and enlargements. When every corner drugstore became a processor, not just a drop box and pick-up point, it cut seriously into the volume and also reduced the need to even come to the store.

Of course you are arguing both sides of an issue as far as selection and service at local independant photographic retailers. Unfortuntely you are also right on both sides regarding. Prices are higher and service is lacking, yet it we are losing something for them to dissappear.

I think this is not just a camera store phenomenon, but simply a fundemental change in the way goods and services will be exchanged. And it si not just a retail thing for that matter. This internet thing is rally catching on ;-) The economics are just better.

That is not to say a good shop cannot compete. I hear this all the time about competing against Wal Mart. Yes, it can be done with a wider specialized assortment and top service. But frankly not often. They are arguing the 2% here.

Maye similar to how the railroads felt when airlines started selling tickets.

-Tom

We have a few great local photography stores where I live (Upstate NY). They are family-owned, reasonably priced, and their salespersons are knowledgeable about the equipment they sell. For example, small things, like filters, are actually cheaper then at B&H or Amazon - I am talking about high-quality filters from B&W, Heliopan, Nikon, etc. However, at the same time, they have no clue about the brands / models they are not selling. They are strictly Canon / Nikon, with a sprinkle of Olympus and Pentax. Definitely no Sony or Panasonic. I asked one of the salespersons why they don't sell Sony DSLRs, and he replied that in order to be a Sony authorized dealer, they have to sell most of Sony stuff, like TVs, laptops, camcorders, etc. Is that true?

This illustrates that local stores can't compete with large online retailers on variety / diversity of stuff they sell.

But, if we are shopping online for price and selection, why should we expect education and shopping advise from online retailers? I believe this is the function of the sites like this one. If I need an advise about what camera, lens, or accessory to buy, I would read reviews here, and ask questions in the forums - community here is collectively much more knowledgeable than any salesperson could possibly be. From the retailers, I need low prices, good reputation, great customer service, and reasonable return policy. Knowledgeable stuff could be the icing on the cake, but I can find information elsewhere.

Here is a great idea for the second-tier camera manufacturers. Panasonic, Olympus, Pentax, Samsung, Fujufilm, etc. - open a local technical support and education centers in medium-sized cities, where there are no large photography stores. One man operated, they should have working samples of full selection of cameras, lenses and accessories for people to handle and try there, and buy online later if they like what they see. I always feel like cheating when I go to a local store to see if a particular camera or accessory "feels right", only to order it online to save 10-30%.
--

'I'm not good, I'm not nice, I'm just right.' (The Witch from Sondheim's 'Into the Woods')
☮ ZodiacPhoto ☮



http://www.ZodiacPhoto.com

But it's my guess most camera buyers go to a local store to handle the camera they're interested in and then buy on line. Tough on the stores, they pay the overheads, Amazon get the profit.

I may be fortunate in using a couple of stores that while not matching online prices come close enough that I'm prepared to pay the extra. And one of them, Wildings in Manchester (UK) is as helpful as it's possible to be.

I realise this isn't always the case. But most of my local stores are better than I see described in this thread.
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Rens

--

as a seller of camera's in a big electronic store i must say it seems almost impossible to make a profit on digital camrea's. Dslr go out with a minus 10 procent or more. compact is a little better but not much. we have to survive on accecoiries like bags and memory cards. its very hard to give good service if you now its costing to much time / money. beeing myself thirty one years old with proper foto education i am in fact to expensive for the shop. its sad

Ah.. never thought about that side of the equasion. I guess I just assumed that since cameras are expensive, thry would make a lot of money on those. Sell a few but at a good profit.
So all along it was the bulk film selling/processing paying the bills

Like the rumor that Ferrari actually makes more from flogging mugs, calendars, models etc. than from selling cars nowadays..

A sage investor has put it; When a bad business and a good management come together it is usually the bad business that wins.

It is not the right time anymore. The global distribution landscape is just changing.

-Tom

Rens said:

But it's my guess most camera buyers go to a local store to handle
the camera they're interested in and then buy on line. Tough on the
stores, they pay the overheads, Amazon get the profit.

I may be fortunate in using a couple of stores that while not
matching online prices come close enough that I'm prepared to pay the
extra. And one of them, Wildings in Manchester (UK) is as helpful as
it's possible to be.

I realise this isn't always the case. But most of my local stores are
better than I see described in this thread.

Click to expand...

I think many here blow out of proportion their so-called bad experiences in camera stores.

There are still lots of good camera stores out there.

But most are too lazy to look for a good store, or perhaps just like to go to the bad ones so they can come here and continually whine about it.

Just like shopping around for the lowest price, which most admit to doing, is up to the buyer to find the lowest price.

However, it is also up to the buyer to search out the good stores.

--
J. D.
Colorado



Remember . . . always keep your receipt, the box, and everything that came in it!

I've been surprised to see several major camera stores working with Amazon. Adorama is an example. Cameta Camera is well represented on eBay, along with lots of smaller shops.

I don't know how Adorama and Cameta are doing these days, but I haven't heard anyone mention that they were in decline. Ritz has an online presence, but I didn't know about it until the Chapter 11 was filed and people started talking about it. That's why I think the partnership with an existing eBay giant like Amazon is the way to go. People already head to Amazon to check prices, and sometimes Adorama offers selections that Amazon doesn't stock. It seems to be mutually beneficial.

So that's my hope, that the B&Ms will branch out with powerful online stores along with well-known partners. That way they can deliver products both ways.

--
http://www.pbase.com/soenda

high prices, mediocre service, poor return policy

That pretty much sums up one particular major camera store in my area. Not exactly a big incentive for me to buy from them. The prices are definitely higher than online. In fact, even though they have an online store, they charge more for the exact item if you go into their brick-and-mortar store to buy the item! (And certain items, they'll say "I'll give you our online price" as if it's some great reward they are giving you for buying at their physical store!) Their service is only fair, not particularly helpful. Certainly not worth paying more for. And for returns on unused, unopened items, I only get store credit!

There's only one reason for me to buy from a store: I need the item right now! During those times, I'll swallow the higher price, begrudgingly.

The other reason to go into a store is if you're an absolute noob who knows little or nothing about equipment and needs to be talked at by a sales clerk. And you don't have the sense or capacity to do all your product research on the web.

And as for camera store sales clerks, some are just pathetic megalomaniacs who act like they know a lot but are in fact just plain wrong, ill-informed, or so biased as to be completely worthless. Unfortunately, they prey on inexperienced camera buyers who hang on their every word. I try to minimize my interactions with camera store clerks as much as possible. Just give me what I'm looking for, ring me up, and let me get out of here!

T3 said:

And as for camera store sales clerks, some are just pathetic
megalomaniacs who act like they know a lot but are in fact just plain
wrong, ill-informed, or so biased as to be completely worthless.

Click to expand...

It is quite interesting what you see when you look in the mirror, isn't it T3.

--
J. D.
Colorado

Remember . . . always keep your receipt, the box, and everything that came in it!

with high sales and real estate tax. Any "economic stimulus" payments from the federal government are confiscated by local governments. And I remind you that Obama is from Chicago which has the highest sales tax in the USA. Obama knows his "economic stimulus" is going to crooked local politicians in Illinois who ruin the economy by raising taxes, license fees, parking fees, etc. Meanwhile, local liberals pretend that this is not the exact opposite of economic stimulous.
--
(Author of SAR Image Processor and anomic sociopath)
Tell me your thoughts on Plato's allegory of the cave.

It definately is much harder for B&M stores to compete when they have to, by law, collect sales taxes that are often near 10% of the purchase price of the items being bought by the customer.

Here in the Denver metro area, sales taxes range anywhere from 6% to 12%, depending on which town or city you happen to be in at the moment.

It will be an unfortunate day when people no longer have a place to go when they want to actually see a product in person before they buy.

I do find it extrordinary that the federal and state governments (at least here in the US) has yet to implement a sales tax for online entities.

However, I'm sure that day will come!

Especially with the decline of income tax revenue due to not only the slow economy, but also from the ever decreasing number of local businesses left to collect sales taxes for them.

--
J. D.
Colorado

Remember . . . always keep your receipt, the box, and everything that came in it!

I agree with the mixed delivery idea. I was in the camera retail business for years but retired from that side of the business in 1989. However, if I were still running my small 3-person shop now, I would partner with someone that could deliver for me online. Or I would be online for myself or something similar.

I would possibly have a different online name so I wouldn't be wasting my store-time with a lot of online people. I think a mixture of the two would be right.

I enjoyed working in my store. I had been a pro photographer so there was a lot good back-and-forth with my customers. They learned something....and so did I.

I feel companies like Cameda, Adorama etc are on the right track. Have a good brick & mortar store - not too many like Ritz - and really jump into the internet biz, and it might be the right combination for the future!

MusicDoctorDJ said:

T3 said:

And as for camera store sales clerks, some are just pathetic
megalomaniacs who act like they know a lot but are in fact just plain
wrong, ill-informed, or so biased as to be completely worthless.

Click to expand...

It is quite interesting what you see when you look in the mirror,
isn't it T3.

Click to expand...

Uh, aren't you the one who is the camera store clerk who is emphatically claiming that the 40D has been discontinued, in spite of overwhelming evidence contradicting your claim? LOL

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=31472983

I bet you're still telling your unsuspecting customers that the 40D has been discontinued! "

Like I said, there are a lot of camera store clerks who are passing off bad information, who think they know it all (ie, they know better than Canon, as it seems to be in your case), and are typically best avoided whenever possible.

T3 said:

I bet you're still telling your unsuspecting customers that the 40D
has been discontinued! "

Click to expand...

No, because I am still selling them as we still have them in stock.

Sold one last week, as a matter of fact.

The 40D stock is dwindling and soon they will be gone, with perhaps a few still around at some retailers.

The 40D is last years' model . . .

And there most likely are no assembly lines producing 40D's anymore.

And probably soon we will hear about a 60D that will bump the 50D down the ladder, just like what is happening with the 40D right now.

We still have some 30D's left . . . and one on display right next to the 40D and 50D.

Granted, I don't reach for the 30D every day, but they still move every once in awhile.

--
J. D.
Colorado