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S5 Pro 12MP resolution ....

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Robert N said:
Thom Hogan said:
Robert N said:
That's wrong, period. It has more resolution than a 6mp camera. It's
visible and measurable.
Click to expand...
There's only one problem with both your statement and mine: you can't
isolate to the pixel count. So we're both wrong.
Click to expand...
Of course I could be wrong, but as far as I can remember, I only said
the S5 would have more resolution than 6mp cameras. And if you look
at the test charts, I'm right. It doesn't matter why it is better
(different angles, antialiasing...).
Click to expand...
You may be right (considering the different angles of the sensor's pixel array), but the results may not show what you expect if you rotate the test chart by 45°.
 
CM_laptop said:
Thom Hogan said:
CWilt said:
Thom Hogan said:
I think people have to figure out (if they haven't already) if
they're a commodity shooter (e.g. negative film from a compact or
low-end SLR printed at the one-hour processing place) or a serious
shooter (medium format black-and-white or perhaps pro Velvia printed
by hand).
Click to expand...
I think your last paragraph is wrong and believe that many others
would agree. Trying to say that art is not produced by "low-end"
equipment sounds like its double rotating and counter intuitive.
Click to expand...
I said no such thing.
Click to expand...
Errr.....yes you did...or rather, "wrote".
Click to expand...
No. You folk are misinterpreting him, and he's not clarifying well.

And then you've added rudeness to misinterpretation by telling him what he wrote, while dismissing your own interpretative contribution to the situation.

--
-adrian charles-
barbados.
http://guttaperk.smugmug.com
 
Robert N said:
Robert N said:
You may be right (considering the different angles of the sensor's
pixel array), but the results may not show what you expect if you
rotate the test chart by 45°.
Click to expand...
Take a look at the test chart used by dpreview. Do you see only
horizontal and vertical lines?
Click to expand...
Take a look at what DPReview examines, as identified by its resolution tables. Horizontal and vertical, with no figures for diagonals. Then examine your argumentative responses. Do you see anything other than what you want to see?
 
Now •your• post was rude, gutta......or whatvere your REAL dpreview ID is;

as from your posting history it's obvious that guttaperk is double, "reserve" ID for somebody woth another dpreview account.

Nowhere was my post rude; Thom is a real resource in these forums; & always ready to lend a helping hand.

That's a fine example of an UN-selfish person in my book: thanks Thom.

Even Thom can word it wrong at times....no big deal; we're all human.

Nobody is making fun of anybody.......except you.
 
ddk said:
My understanding of resolution is how the camera resolves light in a
scene, ie the tonal depth and range from the lightest to the darkest.
In my experience S5 outresolves all Nikons that I owned/tried, D70,
D2x, D300, D3 and the same is true with the Canons that I owned, 20D,
1dsmk2. None can match Fuji's tonal depth and range specially with
high end glass. DR is also part of a camera's resolution, no dslr
that I know of today can touch Fuji yet. I haven't tried the D3x yet
but the Sony A900 with the same sensor can't. Isn't photography about
light? Doesn't the machine that captures the most light actually have
the highest resolution? IMO 6mp, 12mp or 24mp only tell part of the
story, maybe they can be used for print sizing but can't define real
resolution.
Click to expand...
There's no question that the DR of the S5 is the widest of all DSLRs currently available and that this wide DR lends itself quite handsomely to image quality. But that doesn't mean it "outresolves" cameras like the D2x, D3, etc. It doesn't.

It seems you're trying to redefine the word "resolution" by including DR as part of the resolution equation. Well, that sounds like a good idea (although I'm not sure how that could be implemented). Having wide DR (adjustable no less) available in high contrast situations has its obvious benefits.

However, in the process, you can't diminish pixel count and pixel density (or leave them out of the mix altogether) for, the fact is, 6mp, 12mp or 24mp don't just tell "part" of the story but are the MAJOR part of the story. Wide DR would be of little or no value to anyone if a camera was only 2mp. It's turning out, it appears, that wide DR was of little value to the majority of enthusiasts and professionals in a camera of 6mp (the S5).

Conversely, 12mp, 15mp, 17mp, 21mp and 24mp are of tremendous value to nearly everyone who cares about the final image, even when DR is somewhat limited. When I view images from my D2x and then view similar images from my S5, the differences in sharpness, detail, acuity, tonality, etc. are all in favor of the D2x. In favor of the S5 is certainly DR and, for sure, a certain "look" that exhibits less of a digital quality than the D2x, and I do appreciate that "look."

I think the S5 is a terrific camera. I think it has very good resolution, maybe the best resolution of any 6-8mp camera. And besides DR, it has capabilities that my other cameras lack. But it does not out-resolve my other cameras. I wish it did. What a camera it would be if that were the case.

--
SteveG
'When love and skill work together, expect a masterpiece.'
— Found in a Chinese Fortune Cookie
http://www.stephenmichaelgarey.com
 
andyN111 said:
I see that you and Steve (veroman) probably using the same template
for your web pages :) beautiful pages! can you tell me what
software/template that you used to create your pages?

Thanks, Andy
Click to expand...
Andy: we apparently use the same host/server provider called Foliolink, accessible at http://www.foliolink.com . They've been in business a long time, provide quite a number of HTML and Flash templates to choose from and are reliable, helpful people. I've been with them for a few years. They offer several levels of site plans/configurations at different price points.

--
SteveG
'When love and skill work together, expect a masterpiece.'
— Found in a Chinese Fortune Cookie
http://www.stephenmichaelgarey.com
 
CM_laptop said:
CM_laptop said:
CM_laptop said:
CM_laptop said:
CM_laptop said:
CM_laptop said:
I think people have to figure out (if they haven't already) if
they're a commodity shooter (e.g. negative film from a compact or
low-end SLR printed at the one-hour processing place) or a serious
shooter (medium format black-and-white or perhaps pro Velvia printed
by hand).
Click to expand...
I think your last paragraph is wrong and believe that many others
would agree. Trying to say that art is not produced by "low-end"
equipment sounds like its double rotating and counter intuitive.
Click to expand...
I said no such thing.
Click to expand...
Errr.....yes you did...or rather, "wrote".
Click to expand...
No. You folk are misinterpreting him, and he's not clarifying well.

And then you've added rudeness to misinterpretation by telling him what he
wrote, while dismissing your own interpretative contribution to the
situation.
Click to expand...
Now •your• post was rude, gutta......or whatvere your REAL dpreview ID is;
as from your posting history it's obvious that guttaperk is double, "reserve"
ID for somebody woth another dpreview account.
[...]
Even Thom can word it wrong at times....no big deal; we're all human.
Nobody is making fun of anybody.......except you.
Click to expand...
Good afternoon, CM_Laptop.

I'm really not sure why you take my post as having been rude, but I do stand by everything that I have said thus far. My post was direct and arguably abrupt, but not disrespectful or insulting.

I am curious as to why you feel confident in dismissing my identity in the fashion that you do. The assessment seems an odd one. My real name is in my signature, and this is my only DPReview account.

Nor do I think that your suspicions have any bearing on the point that I was making. Whatever you say about me does not diminish the truth of what I have said.

For what it's worth, I completely share your positive assessment of Thom; I just feel that, in this particular instance, you are wrong, and he is right.

Serious shooters, professionals, and artists gravitate towards serious tools, which tend not to be the cheapest ones. The correspondence is not perfect, but the association is real, and referring to it does not make one a snob.

cheers

adrian.

--
-adrian charles-
barbados.
http://guttaperk.smugmug.com
 
Geoff_R said:
veroman said:
Look time no see, indeed. I didn't know you were shooting with an S5
(among other cameras). Do you still use your Sigma?
Click to expand...
I've got a little DP1 for pleasure that also gets used for candids of
groups at weddings and love it......but Dslr's are a whole different
ball game these days.
Geoff_R said:
If you've read through some of my posts, you can see I'm new to the
Fuji way of photography. I don't know what took me so long. I've
pretty much experimented with everything else out there .... well,
not EVERYTHING. Haven't used a Pentax or Sony or Leica M8. I do enjoy
the S5. I enjoy the S2 as well. Terrific little camera, though short
on features and not quite the resolver the S5 is.
Click to expand...
Bit like me really....came to the Fuji party late...glad I did though
and of course managed to get them at the right price:-)
Geoff_R said:
Anyway ... and as always ... good to hear from you.
Click to expand...
And you.
Geoff_R said:
The D700 soundsgreat. After a fling with a D2x (loved, loved, loved that > machine!), I've been looking into some of the newer Nikons, ie D300 and > D700 ... plus I'm considering going back to a D2x, the "s" version. We shall
see. I'll look forward to your posts as well.
Click to expand...
If you liked your D2X you'll love the D700....its been a bit of a
revalation for me....its almost good enough at high iso not to use
flash again:-) I dont see much difference in IQ between the D300 and
D700 with the exception of DR and high iso performance....so if you
dont need high iso the D300 isnt a bad buy and of course Nikon is a
bit lacking in good FF glass.....nothing like the Canon F4 range for
example.

Anyway its good to touch base with you and I'll keep an eye out for you.
best
--
Geoff_R
Click to expand...
Tried the DP1 a while back. Rented one. Hated it. Sent it back in two days even though I paid for a 7-day rental. I'm not going in Sigma's direction anymore. Way too limited a technology for what I do. And the Sigma files just look so damn artificial compared to the Nikon's, Canon's and Fuji's.

D700 sounds like a great camera to have and use. Very tempting but, as mentioned, I also have my eye on a used D2xs. I just love the D2x and am sorry I sold mine. Of course, I really don't need another camera, not with the Canon 5D, 1Ds II and Fuji S2/S5 Pros at my side. But the overall look and incredible resolution of fine detail of the D2x is still unmatched by my other cameras. Such is the life of a photographer who's also something of a gearhead .... :-)

Best,

SteveG
'When love and skill work together, expect a masterpiece.'
— Found in a Chinese Fortune Cookie
http://www.stephenmichaelgarey.com
 
Robert N said:
Robert N said:
Take a look at what DPReview examines, as identified by its
resolution tables. Horizontal and vertical, with no figures for
diagonals. Then examine your argumentative responses. Do you see
anything other than what you want to see?
Click to expand...
Bill, what do you want to tell me?
Click to expand...
I already told you, and you just confirmed my somewhat rhetorical question.
 
thank you! Andy
veroman said:
andyN111 said:
I see that you and Steve (veroman) probably using the same template
for your web pages :) beautiful pages! can you tell me what
software/template that you used to create your pages?

Thanks, Andy
Click to expand...
Andy: we apparently use the same host/server provider called
Foliolink, accessible at http://www.foliolink.com . They've been in business
a long time, provide quite a number of HTML and Flash templates to
choose from and are reliable, helpful people. I've been with them for
a few years. They offer several levels of site plans/configurations
at different price points.

--
SteveG
'When love and skill work together, expect a masterpiece.'
— Found in a Chinese Fortune Cookie
http://www.stephenmichaelgarey.com
Click to expand...
--

Understand the light and let it shine through your photographs... YOUR WAY... AndyN111_the Amateur :)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/andyn111/

 
In any image I have produced during my short digital experience the 14 bit images ALWAYS beat the 8 bit images. Take a ball, a nice new bright red plastic ball. The low color bit image makes this look like a flat disk while the 14 bit colors give the ball a texture and make it three dimensional. I believe that really makes the images look more detailed than the pixel count would predict.

--
Alan, in Montana
Photos are cached here,

http://radphotos.net/index.php?option=com_copperminevis&Itemid=33&place=gallery&cat=10069
 
Billx08 said:
I already told you, and you just confirmed my somewhat rhetorical
question.
Click to expand...
If you take a look at the review, you can clearly see that the S5 outperforms any 6MP camera. Are you denying that? The horizontal and vertical resolution is closer to 10MP than 6MP. The performance on diagonals might not be as good and be closer to 6MP. We don't know. DPreview doesn't use a test chart that consists of only diagonal lines (would be pretty silly). And actually it really doesn't matter. What counts is that in real life shots "it is certainly doing a better job than any of the conventional sensor 6MP SLRs." (dpreview)

--
Regards,

Robert
http://www.sondek.smugmug.com
 
Robert N said:
Robert N said:
I already told you, and you just confirmed my somewhat rhetorical
question.
Click to expand...
If you take a look at the review, you can clearly see that the S5
outperforms any 6MP camera. Are you denying that? The horizontal
and vertical resolution is closer to 10MP than 6MP.
Click to expand...
No, and if you check some other recent messages of mine you'll see that I also said that the S5 provides more detail than (unmodified) 6mp DSLRs. Where we differ is that I found the S5 closer to the 6mp cameras than to the higher res. cameras, which in my tests were 12mp, not 10mp. So I'd say pretty close to 8mp and perhaps not too far from what you found.
 
Billx08 said:
No, and if you check some other recent messages of mine you'll see
that I also said that the S5 provides more detail than (unmodified)
6mp DSLRs. Where we differ is that I found the S5 closer to the 6mp
cameras than to the higher res. cameras, which in my tests were 12mp,
not 10mp. So I'd say pretty close to 8mp and perhaps not too far
from what you found.
Click to expand...
I think I was not clear enough. I don't think the S5's resolution is as good as a D200 (not to mention the D2x) in real life, but it's certainly better than a D50. Actually I don't really care about it, because I hardly crop and don't print larger than A3. Other things are way more important for me (DR, color...). I was just a bit annoyed by Thom Hogan's first post. However, I hope I was not impolite...

--
Regards,

Robert
http://www.sondek.smugmug.com
 
ddk said:
My understanding of resolution is how the camera resolves light in a
scene, ie the tonal depth and range from the lightest to the darkest.
Click to expand...
Our eye/brain system works mostly with two strong variables: luminance and detail. Luminance in digital is captured by the dynamic range. Detail in digital is captured by the orientation and number of the sensing sites (with megapixels being a stand-in measurement, and actual MTF figures being a better choice).

Our eye/brain system works in a much more nuanced and subtle fashion than most people realize. Indeed, it wasn't until the Renaissance that most painters started to understand it and use those things to great advantage in their works. Curiously, I don't find many photographers who understand it, even though it's very important to how we render images.

But to cut to the chase: infinite luminance data with very finite detail data, or vice versa, is not what you want. At the time when 6mp cameras were the "norm" the Fujifilm S3/S5 had and advantage in that they provided more luminance data with better than average detail data. Compare an S5 Pro to a D700, however, and we have slightly better luminance data and worse detail data. Compare an S5 Pro to a D3x and we have have slightly better luminance data and far worse detail data.

The problem I have with the EXR solution is that it doesn't really address the increasing detail gap. And the we're getting closer and closer to having equals in the luminance data realm.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (19 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com
 
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