BHPhotovideo or Adorama vs. Competitive Cameras Dallas

I went to the Competitive Cameras Dallas store today to see if I can buy a D700 + 50mm f/1.4 at the same price as BhPhotovideo or Adorama.....

I was served by a very polite and professional young man.

When I asked if they would sell the camera to me at the price I wanted, the old chap (owner and father?) came up, and in an obviously displeased manner said he would match BHPhotovideo's prices.

I explained to him that what I meant was that I would pay the same price as I would pay BHPhotovideo or Adorama, i.e. the price would be inclusive of Sales Tax.

This must have touched off a raw nerve, and he started yelling and accusing me of:

1. Attempting to force him to do something illegal (?)
2. Not being a good citizen of Texas (?!)
3. Robbing him of his livelihood (??!!)

I politely told him that he should not yell at his customers, that I had come to [try and] buy a camera, that he could have just say "no thanks", and that I did not come for a lecture.

This resulted in his brain short circuiting, and he screamed, his voice now one octave higher and 10 decibels louder, that "You are in my shop, I can do whatever I like!" I was sure I could see smoke coming out of his ears......

I decided to leave immediately, in case he was going to get his shotgun from under his counter......

Has anyone had this experience with this merchant? For me it was very disappointing, especially given my very pleasant buying experience with them some years ago.

Thinking about it, the larger question is: "Are the BHPhotovideos and Adoramas killing the old-fashioned shops such as Competitive Cameras in Dallas".

And is this good or bad for consumers and customers?

If you live in Texas and buy from B&H you have to pay use tax to the state of Texas. If you don't do that you are a tax evader. So, indeed, if your local camera store matches B&H's price before tax, the price match is perfect, as generally the use tax rate is the same as the sales tax rate. The only difference is that use tax evasion is much easier than sales tax evasion.

B&H is probably selling not quite as low as they could given their volume, but I don't think that any smaller store is able to sell for less than B&H without loosing money. You cannot expect your local store to pay your taxes for you.

As I see it, stores like B&H and Adorama make it difficult for small local stores, but they don't kill them. What kills them is people who happily (and perhaps ignorantly) break the law when buying from B&H and then turn around and expect their local store to pay their taxes for them.

It sounds like you were more interested in having a story to tell than buying a camera.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=31506869

My sympathies are with the old man.

Peter Mueller said:

If you live in Texas and buy from B&H you have to pay use tax to the
state of Texas. If you don't do that you are a tax evader.

Click to expand...

I believe that's for professional photographers who claim the camera gear as a business expense -- at least in most states.

That guy has always been a prick and I will never return to his store. I had a similar incident. I called about a product and received the price. I went into the store a day later and suddenly the price jumped 30 bucks. He said I didn't know what I was talking about when I told him I called the previous day.

Arlington Camera is top notch.

photonut2008 said:

Peter Mueller said:

If you live in Texas and buy from B&H you have to pay use tax to the
state of Texas. If you don't do that you are a tax evader.

Click to expand...

I believe that's for professional photographers who claim the camera
gear as a business expense -- at least in most states.

Click to expand...

No that is the law for everybody. If you buy anything out of state that would be taxed with sales tax in your state, you owe your state use tax in the amount of the sales tax you would have payed had you bought the item in your home state at the same price. In Massachusetts, where I live, clothes are exempt from sales tax, which means that online purchases of t-shirts are exempt from use tax. Cameras, on the other hand, are not exempt from sales tax and hence not from use tax.

This has nothing to do with whether you use an item professionally or not. If you use it professionally, you should be able to claim it on your tax return if you itemize, but this is for Federal and State tax, not sales tax or use tax. If you buy something in this country you owe tax (unless you live in New Hampshire or another state that does not impose a sales tax). If you buy in-state you owe sales tax if you buy out of state you owe use tax. Period.

Cheers,

Peter

Is this a photography forum? For a second I thought it was a tax forum like HR Block or something...
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thewenzels/

Peter from MA is correct with regards to Maine as well.

there is a line on Maine Income tax form to list all purchases made out of State and pay the appropriate tax.

I believe that B&H, Adorama and your local store all pay the same invoice price. However I am led to understand by my local retailer that the megastores receive significant volume rebates from the manufacturers as well as significant promotional incentives that the smaller stores simply do not receive.

In fairness to the local store, if you use them to play with the hardware or research information or otherwise make use of their facility in making your decision you ethically owe them something for providing the information/opportunity.

If you don't feel that way, you are an A* . You expect to get paid for your job, they deserve it for theirs.

I personally use B&H and Adorama for the same reason. I use their search engines and pricing verification for ebay purchases of used equipment. So when I buy new on line, I buy from them.

If I use my local store to play with a camera I use a 10% rule. I will pay them up to 10% more than B&H or Adorama for the service they provided me.
If I don't think its worth the 10% I don't use the store for research.
Simple stuff.

dale

--
“I don’t know what young means, you’re alive or not” HCB

http://www.flickr.com/photos/heydale

Well, you are right, in a way this is off topic. On the other hand many photographers in the US buy their equipment online from B&H et al. and it may be of interest to them that this practice is NOT a legal way to avoid paying sales tax.

I expect that this thread will be deleted soon, just as the last discussion about use tax, so I think the moderators feel the same way you do about this topic.

Cheers,

Peter

mayonaka said:

Is this a photography forum? For a second I thought it was a tax
forum like HR Block or something...
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thewenzels/

Click to expand...

Looks like another business that wants to be subsidized when that can't compete. If they can't sell as cheap as B&H then they need to go out of business or maybe what...we give them some taxpayer bailout money to stay afloat when their business model doesn't work?

Maybe we should revive the buggy whip industry and pay them to stay in a business that shouldn't exist.

I can never understand these mom and pop stores that don't want to invest in larger inventories, internet sales, and grow their business. They want to stay just like they are and have the consumer support their ineffective business models and lack of initiative.

Generally the sales tax is offset with shipping cost so the bottom line is these stores just can't compete in terms of price, service, selection or expertise.

"[T]he mere selling of products over a website or by a catalog and shipping them to a state ... will generally not trigger a sales tax collection obligation because such activity does not constitute a physical presence. The U.S. Supreme Court confirmed that such activities do not create nexus in 1992 in Quill Corp. v. North Dakota (504 U.S. 298)"

http://www.nysscpa.org/cpajournal/2008/808/essentials/p48.htm

Of course, there are wrinkles.
--
http://portfolio.streetnine.com/index.html
daily photo at http://joesnyc.com/index.html

Joe G. Baldwin said:

Looks like another business that wants to be subsidized when that
can't compete. If they can't sell as cheap as B&H then they need to
go out of business or maybe what...we give them some taxpayer
bailout money to stay afloat when their business model doesn't work?

Click to expand...

Where did you get that tidbit of "wisdom" from? Did the proprietor of this business ask you or anyone for a tax subsidy?

What is even more wrong with your argument is that companies like Walmart explicitly seek tax holidays from local communities. Often their argument is that they need the money to invest in the property and that it is justified by jobs, and if the community doesn't like the deal then the store threatens to take the job to a neighboring community. Internet companies can likewise seek out locations to establish their businesses that will offer them the least regulation and taxation.

If this is your idea of a "better" model for capitalism, then we are all screwed in the end as those tax dollars necessary to provide essential services will have to be paid by someone and that is effectively a tax subsidy to the biggest corporations paid by the mom and pop shops and others who are less able to manipulate the system to their advantage. Then instead of a family run business that serves the community (and gives you somewhere you can actually put your hands on the gear before buying it), those moms and pops will all be earning meager wages working for heartless companies and selling to equally heartless customers.

Joe G. Baldwin said:

Looks like another business that wants to be subsidized when that
can't compete. If they can't sell as cheap as B&H then they need to
go out of business or maybe what...we give them some taxpayer
bailout money to stay afloat when their business model doesn't work?

Maybe we should revive the buggy whip industry and pay them to stay
in a business that shouldn't exist.

I can never understand these mom and pop stores that don't want to
invest in larger inventories, internet sales, and grow their
business. They want to stay just like they are and have the consumer
support their ineffective business models and lack of initiative.

Generally the sales tax is offset with shipping cost so the bottom
line is these stores just can't compete in terms of price, service,
selection or expertise.

Click to expand...

No argument here! It would be fundamentally stupid to make major purchases from the locals if there prices aren't in line from what you can get it for on-line.

If the locals don't have what you need when you walk in the door but say they can order it for you and have it in a few days, why should I not order it directly online myself and pay less?

If the locals don't want to be competitive why should I pay for their stubbornness and failed business model?

If the locals don't offer me anything above and beyond what I can get online why should I waste my time with them?

I say let them fail as they have nobody to blame besides themselves.

Micro32 said:

I say let them fail as they have nobody to blame besides themselves.

Click to expand...

This is one of the most staggeringly ignorant things I've ever read on this site, and that's saying a lot. I run a small business that has to compete with larger chains, and that's hard enough, but having to compete with larger chains that are, for all intents and purposes, able to sell their goods with no tax passed on to the customer would be next to impossible. In an economy like this, I understand that people want to save cash any way that they can, and I'm no different, but speaking negatively about small camera dealers is downright repugnant. You have no idea what their own costs are, what kind of overhead they have, or any of the other important information you need to pass any judgment on their operations, so keep your mouth shut and quietly buy from somewhere else.

Google it for your state and see if you have one.

Your comment refers to the businesses obligation to collect and pay the tax.

68Bird said:

68Bird said:

I say let them fail as they have nobody to blame besides themselves.

Click to expand...

This is one of the most staggeringly ignorant things I've ever read
on this site, and that's saying a lot. I run a small business that
has to compete with larger chains, and that's hard enough, but having
to compete with larger chains that are, for all intents and purposes,
able to sell their goods with no tax passed on to the customer would
be next to impossible. In an economy like this, I understand that
people want to save cash any way that they can, and I'm no different,
but speaking negatively about small camera dealers is downright
repugnant. You have no idea what their own costs are, what kind of
overhead they have, or any of the other important information you
need to pass any judgment on their operations, so keep your mouth
shut and quietly buy from somewhere else.

Click to expand...

I find the notion that one uses the term "small business" as an excuse for their failure patently stupid. Let's simplify this. Ritz Camera is fighting the Tidy Bowl man for the hole in the middle of the toilet bowl because of their failed business strategies, same with Circuit City. These are/were mega-corporations doing stupid things.

And no, I'm not speaking negative of all small camera dealers, just the ones that throw a tantrum thinking the world owes them a living because they don't want to adapt. I got a few great locals around me that I don't mind buying from. Got some that don't want my money as well. That's fine by me. If you are one of the shops that don't want my money than logic dictates this is more your problem than mine because I have no problem going to the next link in the food chain.

Micro32 said:

I find the notion that one uses the term "small business" as an
excuse for their failure patently stupid. Let's simplify this. Ritz
Camera is fighting the Tidy Bowl man for the hole in the middle of
the toilet bowl because of their failed business strategies, same
with Circuit City. These are/were mega-corporations doing stupid
things.

And no, I'm not speaking negative of all small camera dealers, just
the ones that throw a tantrum thinking the world owes them a living
because they don't want to adapt. I got a few great locals around me
that I don't mind buying from. Got some that don't want my money as
well. That's fine by me. If you are one of the shops that don't
want my money than logic dictates this is more your problem than mine
because I have no problem going to the next link in the food chain.

Click to expand...

I'm part owner of a restaurant. Let's just say a place opened up right next door to mine that had the exact same menu that I have, but got their food cheaper from their distributors and didn't have to charge any tax. We serve exactly the same thing, and if I lower my prices any further, I've got no profit while they're making 10% at the same pricepoint. They're going to crush me, plain and simple. Some people might say you can make it up with better service and whatnot, but we all know that 75% of customers would take a 10% discount over small perks any day of the week.

That's the position that I see small camera shops in, and I genuinely feel bad for people who have to try to compete in that market. These are people's lives we're talking about, and it's hard for me to listen to anyone say they deserve to go down in flames. Just reading the OP, I could imagine the frustration that a shop owner must feel when he has customers come in day after day, asking to be sold things cheaper than he can afford to sell them. Like I said, you have no idea what kind of overhead these stores have that "don't want" your money, and there may be reasons they just can't afford to sell their goods any cheaper, whether it be because of prices from suppliers or the mortgage they've got on the place. Shop somewhere else, but keep your trap shut about it.

its his yelling and fuming thats killing the old fashioned shop

batuceper said:

I went to the Competitive Cameras Dallas store today to see if I can
buy a D700 + 50mm f/1.4 at the same price as BhPhotovideo or
Adorama.....

I was served by a very polite and professional young man.

When I asked if they would sell the camera to me at the price I
wanted, the old chap (owner and father?) came up, and in an obviously
displeased manner said he would match BHPhotovideo's prices.

I explained to him that what I meant was that I would pay the same
price as I would pay BHPhotovideo or Adorama, i.e. the price would be
inclusive of Sales Tax.

This must have touched off a raw nerve, and he started yelling and
accusing me of:

1. Attempting to force him to do something illegal (?)
2. Not being a good citizen of Texas (?!)
3. Robbing him of his livelihood (??!!)

I politely told him that he should not yell at his customers, that I
had come to [try and] buy a camera, that he could have just say "no
thanks", and that I did not come for a lecture.

This resulted in his brain short circuiting, and he screamed, his
voice now one octave higher and 10 decibels louder, that "You are in
my shop, I can do whatever I like!" I was sure I could see smoke
coming out of his ears......

I decided to leave immediately, in case he was going to get his
shotgun from under his counter......

Has anyone had this experience with this merchant? For me it was very
disappointing, especially given my very pleasant buying experience
with them some years ago.

Thinking about it, the larger question is: "Are the BHPhotovideos and
Adoramas killing the old-fashioned shops such as Competitive Cameras
in Dallas".

And is this good or bad for consumers and customers?

Click to expand...

--
beam me up scotty

do you consider yourself lucky?

Joe it has nothing to do with mom and pop stores not WANTING to invest in larger inventories, but rather them not being ABLE to do so.

A store such as B&H can literally stock hundreds of say Canon 50D bodies. At about $1500 dollars a pop. You do the math and see how much inventory that is. Multiply THAT by a few hundred other products in the same price range, add to that some $40,000 medium format digital cameras, professional lighting, video equipment, etc. etc.and you literally come up with millions of dollars worth of inventory.

Well, B&H not only serves the NY Metropolitan area but all the world for that matter due to their mail order department. If B&H does not move all or a good portion of that inventory in 3 to 6 months, it is wasted money for them.

Now how on earth do you expect Mom's and Pop's Camera Store out in Idaho to stock several million dollars worth of inventory and move it in 3 to 6 months? Keep in mind that if they don't, the are stuck with inventory that has been replaced by the newest bodies with higher megapixels and more features!

Now, you may say then that Mom' and Pop's just should not exist anymore. Well, that's your perogative, but there ARE those of us that don't want to see the ENTIRE retail industry go the way of the Walmarts, B&Hs etc.

Hence, there must be laws and rules which dictate the Mom and Pop get the same opprotunities as B&H. Well, in a way they do, one by the fact that all stores are given pretty much the same pricing depending on the volume they purchase, and more recently by the fact that yes, once you do purchase over the internet from out of state, as far as the tax collectors are concerned, you ARE supposed to declare that purchase and pay the tax on it...something that most consumers just are not aware of.

Joe G. Baldwin said:

Looks like another business that wants to be subsidized when that
can't compete. If they can't sell as cheap as B&H then they need to
go out of business or maybe what...we give them some taxpayer
bailout money to stay afloat when their business model doesn't work?

Maybe we should revive the buggy whip industry and pay them to stay
in a business that shouldn't exist.

I can never understand these mom and pop stores that don't want to
invest in larger inventories, internet sales, and grow their
business. They want to stay just like they are and have the consumer
support their ineffective business models and lack of initiative.

Generally the sales tax is offset with shipping cost so the bottom
line is these stores just can't compete in terms of price, service,
selection or expertise.

Click to expand...