New TS-E lenses: MTF Charts.

Nice image, by the way.
Thanks, that was with a Zeiss 50f1.4 at f16 by the way. So it is
possible to get long DOF even at a fairly large focal length by
simply stopping down and using hyper focal. I guess my reason for
asking was to see if it was possible to get the same results at a
wider aperture and avoid diffraction.
only if you don't have the framing as shown in your image (great one btw).

with aperature, you increase the thickness of that plane of focus from narrow (on really fast lenses) to proceedingly thicker as you stop down aperture.

imagine taking the plane of focus which is parallel to your sensor and tilting it, so that it's laying on top of your scene (for instance the ground).

what would happen if you tried that in the scene you showed would be that the tree closest to you would be thrown out of focus, but the grass, building, and mountains would be now residing in the plane of focus versus in the thickness of the plane of focus.

the leaves at the top / side though, would not be, unless you stopped down considerably - which would defeat the purpose.
 
1. Absolute image quality corner to corner, unmatched by any other
24mm lens.
I'll wait for some lens testing sites to report before claiming that. However, it's very likely that both of the new TS-E lenses produce very nice image quality.
2. The ability to fix distortion.
Hopefully, both of the new lenses are distortion free, but I think you mean the ability to correct for convergence.
3. Tilt and shift if appropriate and to be able to work at wider
aperatures for the same DOF.
Tilt doesn't give you more DOF; it simply allows you to tilt the plane of focus to match what you're photographing.
4. The ability to use the shift for panos (very low on my list).
This works well but, in my opinion, panorama equipment (like that sold by Really Right Stuff) and some good stitching software is much more effective.

--
Whoever said 'a picture is worth a thousand words' was a cheapskate.

http://www.pbase.com/dot_borg
http://www.modelmayhem.com/dotborg
 
1. Absolute image quality corner to corner, unmatched by any other
24mm lens.
I'll wait for some lens testing sites to report before claiming that.
However, it's very likely that both of the new TS-E lenses produce
very nice image quality.
Goes without saying, but since we have been waiting for a long time for Canon WA to catch up, I guess all we can do is chatter away while we continue to wait.

I do take pictures, but I have almost stopped using my 17-40 these days.
2. The ability to fix distortion.
Hopefully, both of the new lenses are distortion free, but I think
you mean the ability to correct for convergence.
yes, thats what i meant.
3. Tilt and shift if appropriate and to be able to work at wider
aperatures for the same DOF.
Tilt doesn't give you more DOF; it simply allows you to tilt the
plane of focus to match what you're photographing.
Yep, what I meant.
4. The ability to use the shift for panos (very low on my list).
This works well but, in my opinion, panorama equipment (like that
sold by Really Right Stuff) and some good stitching software is much
more effective.
Well with 21mpix, and an ultimate print size of 16x24, I seldom need panos unless my lens simply cannot get the entire scene. I use panos as a last resort.
--
Whoever said 'a picture is worth a thousand words' was a cheapskate.

http://www.pbase.com/dot_borg
http://www.modelmayhem.com/dotborg
--
http://www.pbase.com/roserus/root

Ben
 
Dotborg,

I agree with most of what you said, but to nitpick: 3) tilting and/or swinging the focus plane of the lens, at the same aperture as a parallel-plane image, as I said in my previous post, usually does increase the APPARENT depth of focus, which is all that matters, and 4) if you haven't tried to to do two-element horizontal panos with a simple double-ended shift, I think you'd be very surprised at how well and easily it works - no extra equipment needed and, at most, about two minutes of tweaking in Photoshop. Of course, for a panorama consisting of more than two or three discrete frames, lens shifting is not a viable option, and the techniques you alluded to are inevitable.

Regards,
David
--
Keep learning; share knowledge; think seriously about outcomes; seek wisdom.
 
4) if you haven't tried to to do two-element horizontal panos with a
simple double-ended shift, I think you'd be very surprised at how
well and easily it works - no extra equipment needed and, at most,
about two minutes of tweaking in Photoshop. Of course, for a panorama
consisting of more than two or three discrete frames, lens shifting
is not a viable option, and the techniques you alluded to are
inevitable.
I've been using my used bought large format equipment for more than 8 years and the possibility of movements in 6 axes (optical bench from Plaubel - 5 x 7 inch) is unsurpassed by any other optical lightweight and quality wise equivalent camera.

The only really annoying facit is the weight + film cost + scanning - in other words the workflow is extremely labor intensively. This is o.k. for situation where you can backwards park and open you car's boot to take the picture - otherwise you'll end up using a kind of wheelbarrow to move your equipment from place to place always an eye on the belongings and the light at the same time - do I reach the next point before the scene is gone?

Having a TS-E 17 available for the same purpose and at least one axis free rotatable in 2 1/2 axis (let me call it this way because it is not 3 axis be definition) + the possibility to stitch frames together for more resolution is simply so much tempting that even a good image quality would be a game changer.

Two frames can end up in some 41 MPixel with no disadvantage of noise. or horizontally some 35 Mpixel with a horizontal angle of view of 121° or a diagonal anle of view of 125° (rivaling the famous unreached Schneider-Kreuznach Super Angulon XL f/5.6 38 mm)

My initial prints in 24 x 36 inch proof that 21 Mpixel from the 5D II have a similar detail and appearance comparing to a scanned 5x7 inch large format slides while being much less labor intense. Surely bigger prints would suffer from too few detial but thenagin - what's wrong with a large format image from time to time if it's worth the effort - the lenses and the bellow do not age propperly stored ;-)

Having movements in Tilt and Swing orientation + free rotation of the effects is the key advantage of this lens construction - I do not need to see the final image results to imagine the possibilities but the assumption is to get a decent optical performance too.

Stitching two frames is simply a matter of seconds and pasting them together in PS is a matter of seconds too since they have been one image before. Playing around with a fully movable optical bench gives completely new ideas how to photograph - hving done that once degrades all other optical fixed systems.

Having said that some sujets do not need movements like fashion or speed oriented photos like bird in the fly or sports but all other sujets can benefit from further arrangement possibilities.

Here's once again my illustration of the stitching possibilities (posted it already)



even full shift + fully tilt is possible at the same time (at least with respect to the image circle)

--

isn’t it funny, a ship that leaks from the top

ISO 9000 definition of quality: 'Degree to which a set of inherent characteristic fulfills requirements'
I am the classic “Windows by Day, Mac by Night user'
 
Dotborg,

I agree with most of what you said, but to nitpick: 3) tilting
and/or swinging the focus plane of the lens, at the same aperture as
a parallel-plane image, as I said in my previous post, usually does
increase the APPARENT depth of focus, which is all that matters, and
4) if you haven't tried to to do two-element horizontal panos with a
simple double-ended shift, I think you'd be very surprised at how
well and easily it works - no extra equipment needed and, at most,
about two minutes of tweaking in Photoshop.
should note that to correct for parallax - a macro slide rail or some other means to shift the camera body in the opposite direction of lens shift is necessary.

however, you don't have to worry about finding the nodal point and individual shot / lens distortion as you are simply taking shots of the same, much larger image presented by the lens.
 
Very interesting post above regarding stitching or panoramas with a TS lens, but I'm not really sure what the advantage is between using say a TS lens or a normal lens on a pivoting panorama base sitting on a tripod. Could you explain (in simple terms ;O) what advantage this would have using the TS lens method?
 
Very interesting post above regarding stitching or panoramas with a
TS lens, but I'm not really sure what the advantage is between using
say a TS lens or a normal lens on a pivoting panorama base sitting on
a tripod. Could you explain (in simple terms ;O) what advantage this
would have using the TS lens method?
quite easy to tell.

By pivoting your lens (turning a defined angle to the side) you change the geometry and thus the view and the panorama stitching program has to quote back to a rectangular view with the effect that data is lost and all is computer generated. Most of the time it works fine but sometimes I can't help but I have the feeling that it looks artificial and some artefacts are generated by panoramas done by rotating the optical system.

Opposite to that the Lens stays at it's place when using stitching with a shift lens and only the sensor moves side ways so it is one image with a relatively small sensor that slides to two sides of the one huge image. Stitching is purely "gluing" two frames together that have been one image before.

No mathematical post processing necessary and thus no artefacts of artificial appearance - in other words a perfect image (technically wise).

The only disadvantage is that the lens moves instead of the body but you can move the body in opposite direction while shifting the lens to keep the lens steady. Really Right Stuff offers a nice long L plate for the 5D II (tailor made) with long enough rail. It does not matter if the lens positon is perfectly accurate als long as the parallax error is minor (let's say some 1 to 2 mm)

The complete process of stitching two horizontal frames together should not take more then some seconds on a good steady tripod.

--

isn’t it funny, a ship that leaks from the top

ISO 9000 definition of quality: 'Degree to which a set of inherent characteristic fulfills requirements'
I am the classic “Windows by Day, Mac by Night user'
 
My initial prints in 24 x 36 inch proof that 21 Mpixel from the 5D II
have a similar detail and appearance comparing to a scanned 5x7 inch
large format slides while being much less labor intense.
Curious as to what slide 5x7 you use or had used and what type of scanner were you referring to? I also include 5x7 Velvia with a Wisner in some of my shooting.

Also, went to your website but was unable to click on Enter. Used Safari.

Thanks, John R
 
Curious as to what slide 5x7 you use or had used and what type of
scanner were you referring to? I also include 5x7 Velvia with a
Wisner in some of my shooting.

Also, went to your website but was unable to click on Enter. Used
Safari.

Thanks, John R
Hi John,

my website is under construction (I guess I will never have it ready ;-)

I am using the EPSON Perfection V750 Pro with 3200 dpi scan resolution and quote the scans back to 1600 dpi (more close to what the scanner is really capable of)

This leads still to some 11000 x 8000 pixels but these pixels are unsharper then the ones from the 5D II - thus the tweaking takes longer to get decent results.

Normally I use b&w film - rather seldom Velvia 100 (nowadays very expensive in Germany but I have a 6 x 17 cm rollfilm adapter for film - nice quality :-)



this was done in 5x7 inch with Schneider-Kreuznach 90 f/8.0 at f/22 Ilford Delta 100 and scanned at 3200 dpi + 1 h dust removal :-)

The slide scans have a different appearance compare to the 5D II - IMHO film has always a different look - I still love film.

If you're interested in some of my results - here are four galeries I've done recently:

http://www.jo-1.de/gallaries/struktur/struktur.html
http://www.jo-1.de/gallaries/Palmengarten/palmengarten.html
http://www.jo-1.de/gallaries/flugzeugwerft/flugzeugwerft.html
http://www.jo-1.de/gallaries/Schmetterlinge/schmetterlinge.html

--

isn’t it funny, a ship that leaks from the top

ISO 9000 definition of quality: 'Degree to which a set of inherent characteristic fulfills requirements'
I am the classic “Windows by Day, Mac by Night user'
 
With respect to distortion, Canon has always been quite good. Their early 35TS was the very best shift lens, optically, of that era and that included distortion. The crrent 24 TSE, while not outstanding in mtf terms, has very low levels of distortion.

Some other companies have put out shift lenses with too high levels of distortion, such as the 28/3.5 Pentax or the 24/3.5 Olympus. Before digital, that made those lenses rather problematic.

The published mtf curves by Canon are encouraging, but as usual the test parameters are lacking and have to be surmised. At best one can hope they were produced under similar conditions as other lens' curves and can thus be compared.

In any case, I have the lenses on order and hope that they can finally restore some honour to the Canon wide angle lineup.

The 17 in particular looks spectacular, and might allow me to at least partially retire my 35/4.5 Grandagon on 6x12 for my widest shots, and with stitching allow me to get close to my 28/220 Roundshot for the really wide stuff.

Henning
 
"as usual" test parameters lacking?

all canon mtf's are with the same parameters. wide open, and f/8 performance.

10 lines/mm and 30lines/mm mtf's shown.

it's actually in the EF lens glossary .. "MTF chart: How to read"

imagine that ;)
 
Henning,

Good to hear from someone else has real-world experience with large format film cameras for tilting, swinging, shifting, etc. With the digital age, there seems to have occured some wholesale amnesia regarding how to accomplish many photographic tasks without PP. Although I have straddled both worlds, and am what most would consider a Photoshop (and other imaging software) expert, I sometimes long for the days when it took real camera movement expertise to get the best out of what was possible.

I too am looking forward to the new Canon 17 and 24 TS. I had the old 24TS and it wasn't very pretty when you actually added significant shift. The new ones at least look like they really might make a big difference.

I am curious about your 220 Roundshot; you're the first real person I have actually had a chance to ask - is it good and is it reliable? It used to tempt me back in my film days, but the cost always held me back. Just for the heck of it, I'll mention that I too had a 35mm Grandagon lens back when I used a PhaseOne back on a 2x3 Arca Swiss Mono with all digial view lenses. The 35 was very good, but all the rest - all digital Rodenstocks - were amazingly good lenses. And, I was always longing for a great digital ultrawide that covered my then 37 x 37 mm image area with more than minimum shifting room . That 17TS seems like it could be a smaller format fullfilment of that wish with excellent sharpness to boot.
--
Keep learning; share knowledge; think seriously about outcomes; seek wisdom.
 
David Franklin wrote:
snip
I too am looking forward to the new Canon 17 and 24 TS. I had the old
24TS and it wasn't very pretty when you actually added significant
shift. The new ones at least look like they really might make a big
difference.
Yes, the old 24 was never very satisfying; at best it was just 'good enough'. I went through all versions of the Nikon PC lenses and the Canon 35TS as mentioned; the Schneider 35 and 28, and tried the Minolta, Pentax, Contax and Olympus duo. The best combination of performance and practical useability was probably the 28/3.5 Nikkor which I still use on the Roundshot. The Canon and Contax 35's had great performance, but not enough angle of view and poor ergonomics, and the others just weren't that good optically, except for the Schneider 28. I also used the 50/4 Mamiya extensively and it performed and handled well enough; the Schneider 55 was optically excellent, but not wide enough and a disaster in the field. The current 24 Nikkor looks excellent, but I'm not going to switch systems for it. I also have high hopes for the new Canons.
I am curious about your 220 Roundshot; you're the first real person I
have actually had a chance to ask - is it good and is it reliable? It
used to tempt me back in my film days, but the cost always held me
back.
The Roundshot is excellent; these are the people who do the CNC work for the current Alpa, so if you've seen the machining on that you know what they're capable of. It's been reliable, but the charging is a bit of a pain. When the current battery pack (now 6 years old) dies I'll replace it will something more convenient; other than that the biggest problem now is getting hold of 220 film. Our local stores don't stock it any more. I had a Widelux since the 60's, but gladly dumped it when the Noblex line came out. I still have one of those, and it's been a workhorse. For quick 35 stuff I still have a Horizon 202; crude but eminently more functional than a Widelux. The Roundshot has of course a much wider angle of view than the Noblex 150, across the film and along it but it's trickier to use and while the Noblex is quite easily handheld, a tripod is much more important when using the Roundshot. And then, because of its high torque motor, a very heavy tripod is needed. My #2 series Gitzo CF needs a lot of weight hanging from the hook to keep it from being flipped around by the Roundshot. My 509 Gitzo, otherwise used for high angle 4x5 and 8x10, is just about right for it.
Just for the heck of it, I'll mention that I too had a 35mm
Grandagon lens back when I used a PhaseOne back on a 2x3 Arca Swiss
Mono with all digial view lenses. The 35 was very good, but all the
rest - all digital Rodenstocks - were amazingly good lenses. And, I
was always longing for a great digital ultrawide that covered my then
37 x 37 mm image area with more than minimum shifting room . That
17TS seems like it could be a smaller format fullfilment of that wish
with excellent sharpness to boot.
--
That's pretty much what I'm hoping for: my Canon 5DII with 17TSE is a pretty inexpensive combination if it can do what it seems to promise.

Henning
 
I just have some general questions around these lenses...
  • Would You say that they could be useful in handholding shooting sports at all - thinking about start lines of runners, swimmers, sailingboats etc.?
  • Are the TS lenses more sensitive to tear and wear in general - thinking carrying in bag etc or general use on camera?
tnxs for any input on these matters!

/

--
Ansel Adams: 'There is nothing worse than a sharp photograph of a fuzzy idea.'
 

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