New Pro in town!

What I don't understand is why is it your problem one way or the other, and why are you so worked up over it? Is it your event, or are you and your daughter attending?

People attempt new things all the time and they either fail or succeed. Same with her. If she's successful, great, if she fails, then lesson learned by the people who hired her.

These photos are not life and death. It's a father daughter event. If they are not perfect I doubt anyone is going to lose their life over it, or even be that upset or disappointed.

Again, I really don't know why it is your problem or why you feel you have to protect the universe from newbie photographers possibly biting off more than they can chew.

I'd suggest you attend to your own jobs and clients, and let her do the same.

dscf said:

Interesting to see the name calling (directed towards me and others),
as well as the standard infighting.

One of the photographers I speak to at my local color lab brought up
this situation.

To those of you who suggest you give this noob a chance -- she has to
start somewhere -- let's change the event from a dance to your own,
or your daughter's, wedding.

A friend, neighbor or relative who is a snapshooter with a decent
camera enthusiastically volunteers to photograph your wedding. Their
only wedding experience is that they've been to a few and know the
routine. For every consideration you bring up, such as proper posing,
lighting, and actually getting the job done, she says "I can handle
it no problem". Would you hire this noob?

None of the photographers I know walked into their first important
solo job without experience as an assistant or secondary shooter at
similar events.

Click to expand...

Apparently it wasn't enough for you to denigrate a "mom" for wanting to photograph a father/daughter event, so now you've conjured up a fictional event so that you can bolster your "pro" ego even more, and get other "pros" with big egos to pat you on the back.

Oh, and speaking of name calling, Mr. Know-it-all-pro-school-photographer, what about your use of the word "noob"?

Why don't you just admit that you're mad because you think that you, and you alone should get all the jobs in your area, especially at the schools, and that you feel like the "mom" stole the job from you?

And if you're so worried that she might screw it up and that there might be a lot of disappointed fathers and daughters, why don't you be generous and go help her at the event, for free? What's a few hours out of your life?

Is your concern really for the fathers and daughters, or for the money, your "pro" ego, and monopolizing events in your area?

pptphoto said:

What I don't understand is why is it your problem one way or the
other, and why are you so worked up over it?
Again, I really don't know why it is your problem or why you feel you
have to protect the universe from newbie photographers possibly
biting off more than they can chew.

Click to expand...

It's the OP's problem because he says that she is asking for his advice. It's an interesting problem he has presented to us.

I don't understand why some are jumping all over the OP.

--
Don
http://www.pbase.com/dond

No, it's not his problem. Read ALL of his posts. She asked him for advice on lighting, that's all. He is the one that keeps coming on here whining about every excuse in the world why this won't work for her. Sounds like she is pretty confident about being able to do the work, and I hope it is a huge success for her.

To me he sounds like what lots of others on here have said. A scared semi pro trying to protect his "territory" by whining about every other shooter that comes along.

I'm sure she was just looking for a little friendly help from someone she thought would actually be willing to help her. I'm sure she didn't expect to have him call the photography police on her. I'm sure she'll get by just fine without him. Like I said, these type of photos aren't life and death in the overall realm of things. If they aren't perfect I'm pretty sure everyone will survive the devastation.

BTW, what exactly is a "professional school photographer?" All through my kids school lives, they were photographed twice a year by some minimum wage LifeTouch flunky with two weeks experience, selling cheesy packages shot on even cheesier backgrounds. Professional? Hardly. Were the photos all great? Not by a long shot, but amazingly we all survived with minimal psychological scarring, as I'm sure the fathers and daughters will from this event if the photos don't all turn out to be works of art.

I'm not sure what your profession might be, but imagine someone comes in and says they can do it with no obvious experience, skills, or equipment. And then blows off your well-meaning advice. What would be your reaction?

The OP asks a fair question. While it's not a life-or-death event, there's a fair chance for some disappointment. Can't you just acknowledge those simple facts?

natureman said:

Apparently it wasn't enough for you to denigrate a "mom" for wanting
to photograph a father/daughter event, so now you've conjured up a
fictional event so that you can bolster your "pro" ego even more, and
get other "pros" with big egos to pat you on the back.

Oh, and speaking of name calling, Mr.
Know-it-all-pro-school-photographer, what about your use of the word
"noob"?

Why don't you just admit that you're mad because you think that you,
and you alone should get all the jobs in your area, especially at the
schools, and that you feel like the "mom" stole the job from you?

And if you're so worried that she might screw it up and that there
might be a lot of disappointed fathers and daughters, why don't you
be generous and go help her at the event, for free? What's a few
hours out of your life?

Is your concern really for the fathers and daughters, or for the
money, your "pro" ego, and monopolizing events in your area?

Click to expand...

--
Jeff

pptphoto said:

She asked him for advice on lighting, that's all.

Click to expand...

No...."She asked me what kind of lights she'd need, and any other tips".

pptphoto said:

BTW, what exactly is a "professional school photographer?"
through my kids school lives, they were photographed twice a year by
some minimum wage LifeTouch flunky with two weeks experience, selling
cheesy packages shot on even cheesier backgrounds. Professional?
Hardly.

Click to expand...

The irony of it all is that you and "natureman" seem to have the same problem with the OP as the OP has with the lady. The OP doesn't seem to be "professional" enough to suit you.

--
Don
http://www.pbase.com/dond

Jeff said:

I'm not sure what your profession might be, but imagine someone comes
in and says they can do it with no obvious experience, skills, or
equipment. And then blows off your well-meaning advice. What would
be your reaction?

Click to expand...

First of all, I don't see any evidence that she blew him off. All we have to go on is what the OP has said, and there could be, and likely is, a lot more to the story. As I said before, just because she doesn't bow down to him and do exactly what he says, doesn't mean she isn't going to take some or all of his advice. The event hasn't even occurred yet.

And what exactly is "obvious experience, skills, or equipment."? Obvious to whom? The "pro school photographer"? Does she have to submit a lengthy resume of her experience and skill to him, and show him all of her equipment, and get his approval before she can do this event?

Jeff said:

The OP asks a fair question.

Click to expand...

I haven't seen any fair questions from the OP. What I see is jealousy and arrogance, and insulting names like "noob". Using that word, in itself, shows that the OP believes he is above mere mortals.

Jeff said:

While it's not a life-or-death event,
there's a fair chance for some disappointment. Can't you just
acknowledge those simple facts?

Click to expand...

I've already said that she may screw it up and disappoint some people, but the same could be said about "pros" too. Have you seen the thread about the "pro" five thousand dollar wedding photos that look like cr@p?

As I said before, if the OP is only concerned about possibly disappointed fathers and daughters, he could offer to help the woman at the event, for free. It would only be a few hours out of his life and he could go home that night feeling very philanthropic.

If she's unwilling to accept his help, or any of his other advice, well, that's that, and he should just go about his own business.

If I were in the situation the OP (or you, above) described, and thought that someone was likely to mess up the job, I would either offer to help or walk away and tend to my own affairs.

I realize that this event will be important to the fathers and daughters, but I doubt that they're expecting award winning photos of themselves at the event. Many of them will probably have friends or relatives take pictures of them before or after the event, and even an ordinary snapshot or two will likely be just fine, and chances are, most or all of the people at the event will be clicking away with their cell phone cameras anyway.

If the woman screws things up, she and the committee that hired her are going to have to take the heat, and if that happens, the "pro school photographer" should easily be able to get the job next year and every year after that.

Jeff said:

natureman said:

Apparently it wasn't enough for you to denigrate a "mom" for wanting
to photograph a father/daughter event, so now you've conjured up a
fictional event so that you can bolster your "pro" ego even more, and
get other "pros" with big egos to pat you on the back.

Oh, and speaking of name calling, Mr.
Know-it-all-pro-school-photographer, what about your use of the word
"noob"?

Why don't you just admit that you're mad because you think that you,
and you alone should get all the jobs in your area, especially at the
schools, and that you feel like the "mom" stole the job from you?

And if you're so worried that she might screw it up and that there
might be a lot of disappointed fathers and daughters, why don't you
be generous and go help her at the event, for free? What's a few
hours out of your life?

Is your concern really for the fathers and daughters, or for the
money, your "pro" ego, and monopolizing events in your area?

Click to expand...

--
Jeff

Click to expand...

dscf said:

None of the photographers I know walked into their first important
solo job without experience as an assistant or secondary shooter at
similar events.

Click to expand...

I never assisted for another photographer, ever.

And I did this full time for over 20 years.

I did, however, go to college and did one six month internship at a daily newspaper during my second year of college before landing my first full time gig at a daily newspaper at age 19.

Now, I did get my studio training in a rather peculiar way . . .

Due to the economic downturn of the early 1980's and being on the bottom of the totum pole, I was laid off from the newspaper, and being in Michigan (which was the absolute worst place to be back then) I split to Colorado.

I did a lot of free lance work, sold cameras for awhile, even worked in a couple of plastic injection molding factories, but I did get a job as 'manager' of an olde tyme portrait studio on the downtown Boulder, Colorado mall (anyone remember the TV show 'Mork & Mindy', which is where the record store that Mindy worked in was supposed to be located).

Basically, the owners gave me a three day speed training course (in otherwords, showed me 'their way' of doing things), then split to continue running their other store in South Dakota.

I did this for a year and a half, but eventually got burnt out as I worked by myself, 14-16 hours per day seven days per week.

For, as I recall, $2.60 an hour.

But, I did gain some valuable experience that will always be with me, even though digital has changed photography forever.

We used 4x5 Calumet and Omega cameras and Polaroid Type 55 positive/negative film, made all prints in an on-site darkroom (not the old PMT type that one would get at the county fair), and actually did the real sepia toning process on all prints.

I did move back to Michigan and did get my old job back at the same paper I had previously worked for, and also opened and operated a custom B&W photo lab/photo studio that I ran simultaniously to being a photojournalist.

I still have some prints around here somewhere from the olde tyme days . . . perhaps one day I'll scan a couple and post them.

--
J. D.
Colorado

Shot taken 12-07-1979:



Remember . . . always keep your receipt, the box, and everything that came in it!

MusicDoctorDJ said:

dscf said:

None of the photographers I know walked into their first important
solo job without experience as an assistant or secondary shooter at
similar events.

Click to expand...

I never assisted for another photographer, ever.

And I did this full time for over 20 years.

I did, however, go to college and did one six month internship at a
daily newspaper during my second year of college before landing my
first full time gig at a daily newspaper at age 19.

Now, I did get my studio training in a rather peculiar way . . .

Due to the economic downturn of the early 1980's and being on the
bottom of the totum pole, I was laid off from the newspaper, and
being in Michigan (which was the absolute worst place to be back
then) I split to Colorado.

I did a lot of free lance work, sold cameras for awhile, even worked
in a couple of plastic injection molding factories, but I did get a
job as 'manager' of an olde tyme portrait studio on the downtown
Boulder, Colorado mall (anyone remember the TV show 'Mork & Mindy',
which is where the record store that Mindy worked in was supposed to
be located).

Basically, the owners gave me a three day speed training course (in
otherwords, showed me 'their way' of doing things), then split to
continue running their other store in South Dakota.

I did this for a year and a half, but eventually got burnt out as I
worked by myself, 14-16 hours per day seven days per week.

For, as I recall, $2.60 an hour.

But, I did gain some valuable experience that will always be with me,
even though digital has changed photography forever.

We used 4x5 Calumet and Omega cameras and Polaroid Type 55
positive/negative film, made all prints in an on-site darkroom (not
the old PMT type that one would get at the county fair), and actually
did the real sepia toning process on all prints.

I did move back to Michigan and did get my old job back at the same
paper I had previously worked for, and also opened and operated a
custom B&W photo lab/photo studio that I ran simultaniously to being
a photojournalist.

I still have some prints around here somewhere from the olde tyme
days . . . perhaps one day I'll scan a couple and post them.

--
J. D.
Colorado

Shot taken 12-07-1979:



Remember . . . always keep your receipt, the box, and everything that
came in it!

Click to expand...

--

28 years as a freelancer,(news,magazine, wedding photography) camera equip. over the years: Practica MLT, Canon A1, Minolta 9xi, 7xi, Dimage Z1,Fuji 5200,Canon S2,Pentax K100D,Olympus 380,Canon SX 10 ( http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v104/Buckl/ )

http://mainstreets.blogspot.com/

Jeff said:

I'm not sure what your profession might be, but imagine someone comes
in and says they can do it with no obvious experience, skills, or
equipment. And then blows off your well-meaning advice. What would
be your reaction?

The OP asks a fair question. While it's not a life-or-death event,
there's a fair chance for some disappointment. Can't you just
acknowledge those simple facts?

Click to expand...

I think you go completely "overboard", photography is nowhere near a protected profession. ANYBODY can call him- herself a professional. There's absolutely no education necessary. Might that be the problem here? Is OP maybe afraid of her territory, would she have wanted this event rather then the volunteering mom? IMO if someone like this mom asks if I could give her advise I will tell her that she can or can't expect advise from me, but I don't go whining on some forum that she has a mind of her own and doesn't want to take your advise.
The OP seems to have a hidden agenda with his/her post.
I call 'em as I see 'em.

And in honesty if I was on bthis board and this lady would ask me for advise I might advise her. Shooting dad's and daughters is nothing spectecular and those photo's should only serve the purpose of remembering a nice evening. They are definatly NOT ART.

And to turn this around, any idi@t with the right equippement can shoot portraits for passports and if he/she does a good job then they are professional photogs too, so what the ????

--
Digifan

digifan said:

Jeff said:

I'm not sure what your profession might be, but imagine someone comes
in and says they can do it with no obvious experience, skills, or
equipment. And then blows off your well-meaning advice. What would
be your reaction?

The OP asks a fair question. While it's not a life-or-death event,
there's a fair chance for some disappointment. Can't you just
acknowledge those simple facts?

Click to expand...

I think you go completely "overboard", photography is nowhere near a
protected profession. ANYBODY can call him- herself a professional.
There's absolutely no education necessary. Might that be the problem
here? Is OP maybe afraid of her territory, would she have wanted this
event rather then the volunteering mom? IMO if someone like this mom
asks if I could give her advise I will tell her that she can or can't
expect advise from me, but I don't go whining on some forum that she
has a mind of her own and doesn't want to take your advise.
The OP seems to have a hidden agenda with his/her post.

Click to expand...

digifan said:

I call 'em as I see 'em.

Click to expand...

Then I'll call 'em as I see 'em, too. IMHO, you, natureman, and Nikoneer have blown this discussion completely out of proportion then compounded the issue by imputing motives to the OP. The things you have said appear intended to offend the OP rather than genuinely constructive advice.

If you feel so you say you do, why not get the contact info for this lady from the OP, and volunteer to help with advice, etc? Or at least moderate your words so your thoughts would invite dialog. But that's not what you chose to do.

The type of verbal bullying you, natureman, and Nikoneer have provided on this thread is pointless. The posts say more about the authors than about the purported subject of this thread.

That's how I happen to "see 'em."

digifan said:

And in honesty if I was on bthis board and this lady would ask me for
advise I might advise her. Shooting dad's and daughters is nothing
spectecular and those photo's should only serve the purpose of
remembering a nice evening. They are definatly NOT ART.

Click to expand...

Did you actually read my post?

digifan said:

And to turn this around, any idi@t with the right equippement can
shoot portraits for passports and if he/she does a good job then they
are professional photogs too, so what the ????

--
Digifan

Click to expand...

--
Jeff

Hi, any update on the end result?

I bookmarked the thread since I want to find out the eventual outcome.
--

• Johnny

http://tuxbailey.zenfolio.com

I was also anxious to hear the results of the shoot. The woman emailed me last night.

Just to recap, this would be her first big shoot. She had asked me to recommend lighting. I suggested she purchase a Calumet Genesis kit. This was back in March. She would have had a few weeks to learn how to shoot with them. I never heard from her again until last night.

To save money on lights, a friend gave her two reflector floodlights. Bulbs were referred to as movie lights. I asked her what was printed on the bulbs and she told me they were ECA lamps.

Setup was like a wedding reception procession. Couples were photographed as they walked into the dining room.

After noticing the color "looked funny" in the first few shots, the woman shut off the (3200K) floodlights and shot with the popup flash on her D40. In all she took 120 shots -- one of each couple. She missed over 80 shots. I have no idea what ISO setting she used. Lens was an 18mm-55mm. I haven't seen any samples. She is printing everything on her home inkjet and told me images will need a lot of photoshop work.

dscf said:

I was also anxious to hear the results of the shoot. The woman
emailed me last night.

Just to recap, this would be her first big shoot. She had asked me to
recommend lighting. I suggested she purchase a Calumet Genesis kit.
This was back in March. She would have had a few weeks to learn how
to shoot with them. I never heard from her again until last night.

To save money on lights, a friend gave her two reflector floodlights.
Bulbs were referred to as movie lights. I asked her what was printed
on the bulbs and she told me they were ECA lamps.

Setup was like a wedding reception procession. Couples were
photographed as they walked into the dining room.

After noticing the color "looked funny" in the first few shots, the
woman shut off the (3200K) floodlights and shot with the popup flash
on her D40. In all she took 120 shots -- one of each couple. She
missed over 80 shots. I have no idea what ISO setting she used. Lens
was an 18mm-55mm. I haven't seen any samples. She is printing
everything on her home inkjet and told me images will need a lot of
photoshop work.

Click to expand...

While there has been much discussion (or argument) about how a working pro should treat this woman in the original scenario, I am now of the opinion that if she comes to you for more advice, "It's available at $125/hr of instruction. Otherwise don't bother me anymore." Use whatever figure you find acceptable and say it as politely as you wish.

She deserves no more of your time unless she's prepared to invest in it. That's not to be mean-spirited, it's about her behavior to date. Other than that, allow her to fail without involving you further or renting anymore space in your head.

--
jrbehm
http://www.jeffbehm.com

She may well succeed. Personal drive and people skills will get her a long way. A self-imposed title of "pro" means nothing. I have seen a lot of work on here by folks that claim to be pros that is marginal at best....and some folks that are pros in waiting that just don't wear the "title". Titles mean nothing....the product is the defining issue.

dscf said:

I am a pro school photographer. A mom "with a good digital camera"
spoke to me at a school I recently photographed. She said she would
like to take pro portraits.

She emailed me a few days ago. She took on a job in May -- 200
families at a "Dad & Daughter Dance". She asked me what kind of
lights she'd need, and any other tips.

I replied that there is much more to a pro job than a good camera. I
asked, "Could you physically handle the job of photographing a few
hundred families in the time allowed?"

Here's her reply:

"Truly the one part I think I'm most confident with is the
"physically handling the job" part. I'm good on the fly. (Ex-sales
gal, taken loads of families with small kids portraits, amateur
actress not afraid to make weird faces and noises I think it
could be 150 - 200 attendees. I know, it's big and daunting - but
I'm totally fired up. I've taken some nice outdoor beach family
portraits."

I tried to explain that photographing a family on the beach or a
single kid's shot is not the same as rapid assembly-line photography
at a dance.

I recommended some lighting kits that might be of use. She has never
shot with pro lights. I guess she'll learn everything on the job. If
it takes her two minutes per family, (which I doubt she could handle)
that's almost seven hours of nonstop work. The dance is only three
hours long.

Oh, she also has no idea what to do with the image files after she
shoots them, has no photo background, and no posing bench.

But.....she has a good digital camera. So she's a pro.

Click to expand...

--
Dawn Leramil

dscf said:

I was also anxious to hear the results of the shoot. The woman
emailed me last night.

Just to recap, this would be her first big shoot. She had asked me to
recommend lighting. I suggested she purchase a Calumet Genesis kit.
This was back in March. She would have had a few weeks to learn how
to shoot with them. I never heard from her again until last night.

To save money on lights, a friend gave her two reflector floodlights.
Bulbs were referred to as movie lights. I asked her what was printed
on the bulbs and she told me they were ECA lamps.

Setup was like a wedding reception procession. Couples were
photographed as they walked into the dining room.

After noticing the color "looked funny" in the first few shots, the
woman shut off the (3200K) floodlights and shot with the popup flash
on her D40. In all she took 120 shots -- one of each couple. She
missed over 80 shots. I have no idea what ISO setting she used. Lens
was an 18mm-55mm. I haven't seen any samples. She is printing
everything on her home inkjet and told me images will need a lot of
photoshop work.

Click to expand...

Interesting . . . but not unexpected.

As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts in this topic, I see people like this every day.

Just yesterday . . . a couple was in and they have a D40 and both kit lenses (maybe it was this same woman? LOL).

Said they were opening a portrait and wedding business and wanted studio lights.

First they asked what the difference was between continuous and flash lighting (should I have to explain this to someone opening a photo studio?), and even after I explained the differences and gave advice, they still were only interested in the $180 Smith/Victor 3-light kit (didn't buy from me though as they had seen the same kit online for $15 less - good luck with that one).

They thought that spending the money for a halfways decent strobe setup was a waste of money.

Perhaps I should agree with their opinion as they will most likely fail in this business, anyway.

--
J. D.
Colorado



Remember . . . always keep your receipt, the box, and everything that came in it!

dscf said:

After noticing the color "looked funny" in the first few shots, the
woman shut off the (3200K) floodlights and shot with the popup flash
on her D40.

Click to expand...

I'd suppose she doesn't know about White Balance, or the advantages of shooting in RAW either.

Thanks for the update, BTW. I've been following this story too, and I wondered how she would do.

--

There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those that understand binary, and those that don't.

In other words, she took on a serious project but put no time or effort into preparing herself. Can't imagine what these files look like.

Her next lesson will be about Photoshop. Likely she hasn't a clue where to start, and will come in months late (if at all) with some pretty sketchy images.

For what it's worth, personally I'd stay far, far away from this disaster area. If you try to help the blame will fall on you -- "he just didn't have enough time to work on these in photoshop" ...

dscf said:

I was also anxious to hear the results of the shoot. The woman
emailed me last night.

Just to recap, this would be her first big shoot. She had asked me to
recommend lighting. I suggested she purchase a Calumet Genesis kit.
This was back in March. She would have had a few weeks to learn how
to shoot with them. I never heard from her again until last night.

To save money on lights, a friend gave her two reflector floodlights.
Bulbs were referred to as movie lights. I asked her what was printed
on the bulbs and she told me they were ECA lamps.

Setup was like a wedding reception procession. Couples were
photographed as they walked into the dining room.

After noticing the color "looked funny" in the first few shots, the
woman shut off the (3200K) floodlights and shot with the popup flash
on her D40. In all she took 120 shots -- one of each couple. She
missed over 80 shots. I have no idea what ISO setting she used. Lens
was an 18mm-55mm. I haven't seen any samples. She is printing
everything on her home inkjet and told me images will need a lot of
photoshop work.

Click to expand...

--
Jeff

And be prepared to say I told you so...
--
T---
http://www.crosman.org
http://www.portfolio-shots.com

Ya gotta feel sorry for the client.

--
Don Libby
Iron Creek Photography
http://www.Ironcreekphotography.com
Tucson, AZ