New TS-E lenses: MTF Charts.

they are both potentially some really serious droll material... and might just be some of the finest tilt shift or primes out there - without the benefit of cameras that automatically clamp down as much CA as possible ;)

as a comparison

here's the Zeiss 18/3.5:



and even the 21mm ZF:

 
We'd all like to know how these lenses perform further out in their image circles. Pretty dumb of Canon to chop the charts off at 22 mm.
 
Those new TS-E lenses are definitely fine engineering, but let´s keep in mind that all Canon MTF charts are from computer simulations of ideally assembled lenses, whereas the Zeiss charts are always measured from real lenses.

David
 
We'd all like to know how these lenses perform further out in their
image circles. Pretty dumb of Canon to chop the charts off at 22 mm.
pretty normal nikon does the same.

I think Schneider is the only one to fess up and show it all in an MTF.

slrgear or TDP will be the first to really work with the lens in a testing mode .. unless dpreview surprises us all and scoops the first review.
 
I could see this lens even with no intention of using the tilt or shift function.

Of course if would be foolish to have it and not learn it.

The tutorials are daunting, especially when it needs so much human focus judgement. Thats the worst part of it for me. But in conventional mode, AF confirm would do the trick.

Somebody needs to link us to the first test and the first store that stocks it.

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Ben
 
We'd all like to know how these lenses perform further out in their
image circles. Pretty dumb of Canon to chop the charts off at 22 mm.
pretty normal nikon does the same.

I think Schneider is the only one to fess up and show it all in an MTF.

slrgear or TDP will be the first to really work with the lens in a
testing mode .. unless dpreview surprises us all and scoops the first
review.
Slrgear will probably have blur charts out to the shift limits, when they get their hands on the lenses.

--
Whoever said 'a picture is worth a thousand words' was a cheapskate.

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The tutorials are daunting, especially when it needs so much human
focus judgement. Thats the worst part of it for me.
oh really?

Live View + 10x magnification does the job much better than any (even micro adjusted) autofocus system - the LV function is for me a very welcome return of the "ground glass" from large format photography. There is IMHO nothing better possible. Sure - the process works best on a tripod but then again - composing a 17 mm fl frame needs some attention to get things right.

Even though Canon seem to do a computer simulation it is still worth looking at the mtf curves in direct comparison to Canon mtf's. The 17 and the 24 mm TS-E beat all existing zooms and primes in this range from Canon.

The two most points that are still CA and distorsion. With an educated guess I would say that as a rule of thumb till 80 % of the image circle the quality will be pretty o.k. - so some 8 mm shift in each direction should be possible without any visible optical effects or vignetting.

BTW - the image circle of the new Nikkors is some 58 mm. The new TS-E design offers 16 % more - this should tell the story more crisp.

Canon is now the only company in the world that does lenses for DSLRs with such a huge image circle at this focal length - for me the best news in the last years (with respect to lenses)

Maybe the two TS-Es become a modern classic - the game changer for camera system choice IMHO - the 70-200 f/4.0 L IS USM was already an excellent reason to put Canon over many other systems and my personal first contact with Canon - I guess this friend of mine knew exactly what he did ;-)

back to the TS-E 17 and TS-E 24 - I assume that the optical performance will be best at f/8.0 - this would offer some 20 - 60 MPixel in theory (depending on wave length) caused by diffraction and thus leave some headroom for future sensor resolutions.

The design of these lenses was for sure a huge investment into the future of the Canon system - the aspherical front element on the TS-E17 is undoubtedly a challenge in manufacturing skills and to keep tight tolerance in the complete assembling process is for sure a challenge too. Canon shows how much they know about photography.

In times where the diffraction limit is at f/10 only a tilted lens can archive a bigger focus field without the compromise of loosing contrast or resolution. Sooner or later other companies will have to follow or will have problems to get similar results.

Additionally the possibility to be able to shift the foreground away by shifting up is something I was missing in actual DSLRs many times. Standing in front of a church or a tall building always causes artistically problems.

If the mtf's are true or near reality the TS-Es will become a very solid pice of glass for everyday use for people that like wide angle appearance of photography. The EF 17-40 f/4.0 is a huge disappointment on ff cameras - even my suboptimal Sigma 15-30 is better - that tells it all

--

isn’t it funny, a ship that leaks from the top

ISO 9000 definition of quality: 'Degree to which a set of inherent characteristic fulfills requirements'
I am the classic “Windows by Day, Mac by Night user'
 
The tutorials are daunting, especially when it needs so much human
focus judgement. Thats the worst part of it for me.
oh really?

Live View + 10x magnification does the job much better than any (even
micro adjusted) autofocus system - the LV function is for me a very
welcome return of the "ground glass" from large format photography.
There is IMHO nothing better possible. Sure - the process works best
on a tripod but then again - composing a 17 mm fl frame needs some
attention to get things right.
Live view works for me so-so on a 50D, but not with my 1DS-mk3. Just ask my optometrist, I can't even choose which lens is sharpest when being tested. Its a sharpness judgement issue.

I only use a tripod for landscapes. I currently use hyper-focal with AF confirm at the required distance. With tilt/and shift, it is an iterative process that requires the user to make focus judgements, and that intimidates me.

I suspect one of those loupes to view the LCD might work. Got to buy one and try it out. I have a rt angle device and it does not work for me.
--
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Ben
 
Live view works for me so-so on a 50D, but not with my 1DS-mk3. Just
ask my optometrist, I can't even choose which lens is sharpest when
being tested. Its a sharpness judgement issue.
yes - the same applies to a friend of mine that complains about printed results to be unsharp but can't get things sharp on the ground glass of a large format camera.

With the big viewing screen + 10x magnification on the 5D II it is no problem to get things absolutely sharp even with small dof like this image



no wide angle shot but all done manually with live view on full elongation of my tripod - very shaky :-)

--

isn’t it funny, a ship that leaks from the top

ISO 9000 definition of quality: 'Degree to which a set of inherent characteristic fulfills requirements'
I am the classic “Windows by Day, Mac by Night user'
 
Live view works for me so-so on a 50D, but not with my 1DS-mk3. Just
ask my optometrist, I can't even choose which lens is sharpest when
being tested. Its a sharpness judgement issue.
yes - the same applies to a friend of mine that complains about
printed results to be unsharp but can't get things sharp on the
ground glass of a large format camera.

With the big viewing screen + 10x magnification on the 5D II it is no
problem to get things absolutely sharp even with small dof like this
image

http://www.jo-1.de/images/strelitzie.jpg

no wide angle shot but all done manually with live view on full
elongation of my tripod - very shaky :-)
Live view is absolutely one of the best new features; it even works well in daylight (but I think I'm going to get a hoodloupe too).

The 10x magnification is great but Canon still needs to make improvements to contrast detect focusing.

--
Whoever said 'a picture is worth a thousand words' was a cheapskate.

http://www.pbase.com/dot_borg
http://www.modelmayhem.com/dotborg
 
Probably a silly question, but is there an additional factor in interpreting MTF charts for these type of lenses. I've never given them a great deal of thought, but I understood that what could be thought of the captured image rectangle that projects onto the film/sensor was being distorted to a trapezoidal shape to keep uprights vertical etc. when projected onto the imaging rectangle.

I know there's more to these lenses than that, but have I got that aspect right? If so does it impact the MTF? Is the imaging rectangle being stretched from rectangle to trapezoid with a degradation in the captured MTF, or does the very big image circle mentioned above mean that a trapezoid is being squeezed down to a rectangle with possibly a higher MTF?

Hope I'm expressing myself clearly and if I'm not then maybe it means I'm talking rubbish.
 
I'll try to summarize things like I interprete them (hope this answers the question):

1.) Distorsion should be eliminated by the aspherical lenses in the design and by lenses with unnormal dispersion - thus the optical design should keep the "things in shape"

2.) The MTF curves - even if they are computer generated should take into consideration these effects otherwise the MTF graph would be completely rubbish

3.) No matter what Canon does (computer generated or measured values) they should be compared to Canon other Canon lenses to get a feeling how good the new TS-Es could be.

Just take a look at the MTF graph of the EF 14 or the EF 24 or the EF 17-40 and you'll get an idea how good the TS-Es could be.

All lenses below roughly 30 mm must be retrofocus lenses. The ideal lens would always be a symmetrical lens where the aperture sits in the middle of the optical design and the lenses are symmetrical arranged around this mid point. Unfortunately the mirror of the SLR in combination with the geometrical design of the lens mount do not allow such a design because the last lens must always be a certain distance away from the film/sensor due to the miror.

Thus a (D)SLR is always a compromise in optical design especially for wide angle lenses.

BUT if the published MTF curves turn out to be true theses lenses might probably outperform all existing wide angle lenses. E huge contribution to this effect should be given to the aspherical lens design. Normally these lenses are made in a process of hot pressing the glass element to the final shape. Since glass is very prune to thermal treatment it is a very tough work to get this manufacturing process under control. You might have seen these effects on mustard glass - these machine trimmed especially cheap glasses have small tiny waves on their surface. These waves do occur always when forming glass. It is possible to prevent the glass from doing that but it is an engineer's masterpiece to do that (I was studying glass engineering)

So it all depends on Canons ability to get the glass production under control. Here comes also the long term experience of Canon on the plus side. Furthermore the forms to do this must be done properly and this costs pre investment - other companies (in financially bad shape) might not be in a position to do such an investment at all.

Grinding the lenses is not an option because this process would be even more expensive.

Thus - if Canon can manage to do the special glasses and the assembling in a proper and controlled mass production it will far ahead of all other competitors for years with these lenses - the entry level investment to do such a construction is very high - thus not many companies can and will follow. Nikon is limited by it's F mount diameter - a bigger image circle would have no effect because the light rays would be blocked by the small diameter of the F mount when applying the maximum shift + tilt.

Side remark:

So nikon got it all wrong - they've kept the small mount and they put away the aperture ring so they have no advantage of the old mounting system except the compatibility to older lenses that only sometimes reach the actual designs in terms of image quality.

back to the TS-#s mtf graphs - don't bther with the optical design - just look at them from a final image point of view. The 0 - 22 mm axis is measured (or quoted) from the center of the frame to the corner - it should be the final image without distorsion.

Hope I put everything in the right way together :-)
--

isn’t it funny, a ship that leaks from the top

ISO 9000 definition of quality: 'Degree to which a set of inherent characteristic fulfills requirements'
I am the classic “Windows by Day, Mac by Night user'
 
2.) The MTF curves - even if they are computer generated should take
into consideration these effects otherwise the MTF graph would be
completely rubbish
canon's pretty honest, if you look at the 17-40 or the 16-35, or even the 24 L II or original, or the 14 .. they pretty well mirror what users have experienced in the field as far as performance. Good, bad or ugly, they are not far off.
BUT if the published MTF curves turn out to be true theses lenses
might probably outperform all existing wide angle lenses.
without getting too excited with no real reviews, if the MTF's match real world performance, then they could be very well the sharpest prime / shift lenses out there - especially sub 28mm.

the 17mm TS-E could very well, on the basis of a prime lens, be the sharpest 21mm or under lens out there - both of them may very well give the vaunted 21mm distagon a run for it's money. again if the results match real world. Especially since the distagon's only show down to 40lp/mm versus canon's 60lp/mm (or 30 lines/mm)

I hate to get too excited over modelled MTF's - but those as far as UWA are very very very good and have potential to be game changing - as much as the 14-24 was for nikon.

as resolutions of FF sensors increase, the need and the value of tilting a lens to achieve critical sharpness over an extended DOF will become more and more important. tilting the focal plane is the only method outside of focus stacking to achieve critical sharpness at the pixel level across an extended DOF.

In other words, it's more possible to extract critical sharpness over a wide DOF using a 17mm TS-E then it will ever be out of a 14-24 nikkor at 17mm.

the tactical benefit of that cannot be ignored - on a 21Mp canon or a 24Mp D3x / A900, after F/8 you start to get into the effects of blurr and some resolution loss because of diffraction effect. as the sensor density increases, critical sharpness at large magnifications will highlight this more - tilting the focal plane allows you to still use the lens at say f/5.6 to f/8 and have the appearance of f/16 to f/22 in DOF on a regular UWA. comparing the results of the two side by side would be readily apparent.
So it all depends on Canons ability to get the glass production under
control. Here comes also the long term experience of Canon on the
plus side. Furthermore the forms to do this must be done properly and
this costs pre investment - other companies (in financially bad
shape) might not be in a position to do such an investment at all.
which goes hand in hand with the costs associated with the lens, the testing of these lenses before shipping adds to the costs to meet or on basis of quality inspection come close to the MTF's on a per unit basis.

if you look at the other premier shift lenses out there, none of them that are in the elite category go for less than 2 to 3K .. you truely do get what you pay for - and out of all of them, the canon's have the widest image diameter - almost a full 10mm wider than their closest nikkor counterpart.
Grinding the lenses is not an option because this process would be
even more expensive.
I don't think canon totally utilizes molded elements, and some are still ground, but they are checked against a master lens during the fabrication.
So nikon got it all wrong - they've kept the small mount and they put
away the aperture ring so they have no advantage of the old mounting
system except the compatibility to older lenses that only sometimes
reach the actual designs in terms of image quality.
hard to say on that one, the F mount has one benefit that the canon mount doesn't have - which is a longer register distance, that makes it easier for light to hit the corners of a FF sensor without being on a significant angle. the angle is less on a F mount than it is on an EF mount - if all things such as exit size remain equal.
 
For landscapes I always want the entire frame sharp, corner to corner and near to distant.

I like to place nearby objects in the corners for framing, usually at the bottom, but sometimes at the top.

Example.



How would you use a tilt shift in this example?

--
http://www.pbase.com/roserus/root

Ben
 
Nice image, by the way.

As a long-time view camera and 35mm tilt/shift lens user, I can tell you what you already probably assume in posing this particular question. If you want all the elements of this picture that you asked about in equally sharp focus, a t/s lens won't help that much, because the near elements (tree branches, post) span almost the entire image frame horizontally and vertically. Any repositioning of the focus plane will not coincide with all those elements in your scene. In this case, small aperture, image stacking, or mutiple exposures at varied focus points with later compositing would be the best techniques to make this image tack sharp at every point of interest to you in your picture.

In most images, however, you will gain a very worthwhile advantage in maximizing the apparent depth of focus by manipulating the position of the image plane with a t/s lens. Or, at very least, you would be able to minimize the necessity of using the above-mentioned alternate techniiques.

Regards,
David

--
Keep learning; share knowledge; think seriously about outcomes; seek wisdom.
 
Nice image, by the way.
Thanks, that was with a Zeiss 50f1.4 at f16 by the way. So it is possible to get long DOF even at a fairly large focal length by simply stopping down and using hyper focal. I guess my reason for asking was to see if it was possible to get the same results at a wider aperture and avoid diffraction.
As a long-time view camera and 35mm tilt/shift lens user, I can tell
you what you already probably assume in posing this particular
question. If you want all the elements of this picture that you asked
about in equally sharp focus, a t/s lens won't help that much,
because the near elements (tree branches, post) span almost the
entire image frame horizontally and vertically. Any repositioning of
the focus plane will not coincide with all those elements in your
scene. In this case, small aperture, image stacking, or mutiple
exposures at varied focus points with later compositing would be the
best techniques to make this image tack sharp at every point of
interest to you in your picture.

In most images, however, you will gain a very worthwhile advantage in
maximizing the apparent depth of focus by manipulating the position
of the image plane with a t/s lens. Or, at very least, you would be
able to minimize the necessity of using the above-mentioned alternate
techniiques.
My thoughts are that the new TSE lens brings the following advantages in this order of importance.

1. Absolute image quality corner to corner, unmatched by any other 24mm lens.
2. The ability to fix distortion.

3. Tilt and shift if appropriate and to be able to work at wider aperatures for the same DOF.
4. The ability to use the shift for panos (very low on my list).
Regards,
David

--
Keep learning; share knowledge; think seriously about outcomes; seek
wisdom.
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http://www.pbase.com/roserus/root

Ben
 

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