Newbie Frustrated over camera controls

Hi Im new to this Forum and Photography for that matter. But have Learned ‘Light’ is King ;-)

My only Camera is a DMC-FX30, main reason for getting this one was wide angle and small, I go Camping and take pics of landscapes on the way.

Lately Ive taken a greater interest in Photography to the point where I nearly purchased a Nikon D40, this new toy would help me improve my photography and I would own a 'real camera'. But I soon realised that this would be a big mistake for 1 main reason. Bulk.

Being a Hiker Walker Camper Backpacker, weight is everything. I just would’nt bring the DSLR along half the time. Unless I was prepared to go out with the sole purpose of getting a pre-planned picture, it just would not work.

So getting back to my Lumix DMC-FX30.

Trying to improve my photography is proving to be frustrating. Im reading books and articles on photography but they are always referring to DSLR. Having never had a need to understand fstops and all the other terminology that comes with SLR,DSLR I don’t have that 2nd nature capability to set a camera up. So what I read is kinda meaningless.

My compact does not have DSLR controls. What it does have is Panasonics version of what they think you need in the way of control.
Preset Scenes that require scrolling to access.
ISO mode that’s not intuitive.

The feedback you get from taken pictures are histogram (good) and ISO fstop data (don’t fully appreciate what its telling me).

Im sure if an expert used my camera they would get great shots.

I also appreciate the camera has got a difficult job of setting itself up to what it thinks your pointing at and with very limited light range.

But I cant help thinking, Im quite disappointed as to how compromised cameras are.

Even if you go out and spend £1k on gear I think you would see only little improvement over say £500.00 kit assuming one had the skills to use it.

So looking for a better camera, Ive been reading up on the Panasonic LX3, but reading the manual ahh, am I missing something here. Whats wrong with a dial switch for exposure, a dial switch for sensitivity a dial for aperture, stepped control for zoom so you can set the focal length to whatever dimension you wish, and all work independently and all immediately accessible.

I think manufacturers need to look from outside the box for a new modern form of camera control and labelling. Giving the user the choice of old or new almost like language choice.

What do you guys think?

Michael Gent said:

So looking for a better camera, Ive been reading up on the Panasonic
LX3, but reading the manual ahh, am I missing something here. Whats
wrong with a dial switch for exposure, a dial switch for sensitivity
a dial for aperture, stepped control for zoom so you can set the
focal length to whatever dimension you wish, and all work
independently and all immediately accessible.

Click to expand...

Like this one?

Michael Gent said:

What do you guys think?
--

Click to expand...

Sorry, couldn't resist

I don't mean to be sarcastic, but seriously, take a photography class. It's impossible to convey "good" photography in a limited medium such as a forum thread.

What you learn in in class about basics of shutter speed, aperture, film/sensor speed (ISO), etc. will apply no matter what kind of camera you have. Only after that can you determine on your own if your camera allows sufficient controls for your needs.

That said, most P&S cameras seem to allow some form of manual override, but the menus and button presses to effect specific apertures, shutter speeds, etc. may be frustratingly complicated and tedious. That's when you might consider a DSLR, which has much quicker direct access to those controls.

But if you don't know what to do with those controls, then they aren't much use, even on a DSLR.
--
Galleries: http://www.dheller.net

“The sheer ease with which we can produce a superficial image often leads to creative disaster.” -- Ansel Adams

"Mostly" in that there's also some limitation in how effective varying ISO will be (considering that high ISOs on small sensors tend not to be stellar... particularly if people are expecting non-grainy shots out-of-camera, which is perhaps more common among the target market than tolerance for arty noise or serious post-processing). Ditto on that it's going to be somewhat trickier to get shallow DOF on a tiny sensor, too, so aperture control matters somewhat less.

But given that there's an emphasis on 'small', and that a rather large part of the potential market doesn't understand exposure and has no interest whatsoever in understanding it -- instead preferring "great pics in fully automatic" as a fairly FAQ goes, it should be understandable why there's a prevalence of scene modes and a certain scarcity of 'normal' direct controls.

The primary exposure controls on any auto-shooter are ISO and EV+ -. The scene settings may also help out, but that gets tricky, as there are no standards for scenes that apply to all cameras. So to use scene settings effectively you have to make trials to research your particular camera.

For a "hiking weight" compact with manual controls (no dials, sorry) I would wait for the new Canon SX200 IS.

Kelly Cook

Michael Gent said:

LX3, but reading the manual ahh, am I missing something here. Whats
wrong with a dial switch for exposure, a dial switch for sensitivity
a dial for aperture, stepped control for zoom so you can set the
focal length to whatever dimension you wish, and all work
independently and all immediately accessible.

Click to expand...

That classic manual everything Nikon film camera isn't a joke. It's what we wanted and had to use in 1980. This is 2008. If you want that kind of camera, you can still buy them second hand or even new from China (Seagull or Phenix etc...)

1. All the dials nowadays are not mechanically linked. Because nowadays, to reduce parts, assembly costs and the fact that most point and shoot soccer moms just want a picture, period, you also need full auto reversion. The old way was to have lots of wheels and gears and put a bulky motor on top of each wheel to spin it. The thing becomes ugly, heavy, big and expensive to make because all the wheels and gears need precision and sheer space. Nowadays, the stuff inside these cameras are controlled my little motors and magnets and actuators - they're efficient, light and the whole system is cheaper to make.

2. The cameras particularly compacts are quite small. To even make modern dials, not ancient gears, you would fill every place you put your finger on, with dials. I love my new/old Olympus E-330, but it has a lightly loaded dial where I put my thumb when I handle the camera, the settings keep changing accidentally. Two dials are very close to each other and same shape - in the heat of shooting, I twirl the wrong dial.

Michael Gent said:

I think manufacturers need to look from outside the box for a new
modern form of camera control and labelling. Giving the user the
choice of old or new almost like language choice.

Click to expand...

They do. If you get a higher range DSLR, they have two dials. An entry level DSLR has one dial. A DSLR has a focus ring and a zoom ring compared to a compact where there is really no place to put rings, they use rocker switches which are like parallel parking your car by bumper banging the front and the back cars until you get your own car to the center.

Size of the camera - room for dials
Cost of the camera - number of mechanical parts that has to be made precisely

Auto vs Manual full reversion - affects whether you can use old fashioned mechanically connected dials vs electronic dials

Number of soccer moms willing to pay for a point and shoot that costs AUD 1000 - affects how many fully manual cameras you can sell.

--



Ananda
http://anandasim.blogspot.com/
http://onepicperpost.blogspot.com/

Michael Gent said:

Hi Im new to this Forum and Photography for that matter. But have
Learned ‘Light’ is King ;-)

Click to expand...

Welcome. I hope you don't get frustrated with us!

Michael Gent said:

My only Camera is a DMC-FX30, main reason for getting this one was
wide angle and small, I go Camping and take pics of landscapes on the
way.

Lately Ive taken a greater interest in Photography to the point where
I nearly purchased a Nikon D40, this new toy would help me improve my
photography and I would own a 'real camera'. But I soon realised that
this would be a big mistake for 1 main reason. Bulk.
Being a Hiker Walker Camper Backpacker, weight is everything. I just
would’nt bring the DSLR along half the time. Unless I was prepared to
go out with the sole purpose of getting a pre-planned picture, it
just would not work.

Click to expand...

Yes, this is a dilema that many of us find difficult to solve. Unless you are first a photographer and secondarily a hiker, you will find no good solution in 2009.

Michael Gent said:

So getting back to my Lumix DMC-FX30.
Trying to improve my photography is proving to be frustrating. Im
reading books and articles on photography but they are always
referring to DSLR. Having never had a need to understand fstops and
all the other terminology that comes with SLR,DSLR I don’t have that
2nd nature capability to set a camera up. So what I read is kinda
meaningless.

Click to expand...

You need to sell the FX30 and get something small with full manual controls. It WON'T be a small as the FX30, but there are, I think, some choices that will be small enough. After you have this new camera, then the books and articles will start to make more sense...nothing is better than sitting down with a good book AND a camera.

Michael Gent said:

My compact does not have DSLR controls. What it does have is
Panasonics version of what they think you need in the way of control.
Preset Scenes that require scrolling to access.
ISO mode that’s not intuitive.

Click to expand...

Yes, you have a camera intended for someone with no interest in photography...they just want a few snap-shots.

Michael Gent said:

The feedback you get from taken pictures are histogram (good) and ISO
fstop data (don’t fully appreciate what its telling me).

Click to expand...

The histogram is VERY valuable, as you have found.

Michael Gent said:

Im sure if an expert used my camera they would get great shots.
I also appreciate the camera has got a difficult job of setting
itself up to what it thinks your pointing at and with very limited
light range.

Click to expand...

All cameras have a difficult task doing that...doesn't matter what type. Most users are clueless how to communicate with their cameras...heck, they prolly think it's silly to even suggest that they need to communicate!

Michael Gent said:

But I cant help thinking, Im quite disappointed as to how compromised
cameras are.

Click to expand...

Yes. That's because the customer is an idiot. No, not talking about you...I can tell you are smart. The manufacturers are catering to the customer. You just need to move up to a camera designed for somebody of your intelligence and photographic knowledge.

Unfortunately, there are not many choices "in the middle". A few years ago, there were quite good mid-priced cameras from all the manufacturers, but they decided en mass (Japan, Inc does things like that) to drop the middle market and concentrate on the two extremes. So you mostly find small, cheap, dumb cameras and big, expensive, smart cameras. There are a few signs that the middle might again see some attention?

What Japan, Inc did was to drive the dSLR down into the middle price range. They also made them smaller, but obviously not small enough for you (the D40 is pretty small!). That makes it tough for anybody to enter the middle with an innovative approach...they raised the bar to keep the Korean vendors in their place, IMO. That made good business sense, but it also killed off the type cameras that you are looking for. :-(

Michael Gent said:

Even if you go out and spend £1k on gear I think you would see only
little improvement over say £500.00 kit assuming one had the skills
to use it.

Click to expand...

That's true, especially at the start. As you improve your skills, you learn how to use the more expensive tools.

Michael Gent said:

So looking for a better camera, Ive been reading up on the Panasonic
LX3, but reading the manual ahh, am I missing something here. Whats
wrong with a dial switch for exposure, a dial switch for sensitivity
a dial for aperture, stepped control for zoom so you can set the
focal length to whatever dimension you wish, and all work
independently and all immediately accessible.

Click to expand...

Nothing at all wrong with that. But I'm going out on a limb and guess that you want a big LCD on the back...right. Guess what...no room. All designs are compromises.

Michael Gent said:

I think manufacturers need to look from outside the box for a new
modern form of camera control and labelling. Giving the user the
choice of old or new almost like language choice.

Click to expand...

I have proposed a design with a big touch screen (that twists and turns) to do all the controls and look at all the results. Think how would Apple design a camera? Think iPhone morphs into iCamera! Japan, Inc is not ready for this and with Steve sick, it may never happen?

Michael Gent said:

What do you guys think?

Click to expand...

I think you need a new camera. You might look for a good used camera? There were some beauties built in 2002-2004 that seem like what you need?

--
Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700, Sony R1, Nikon D300
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info
'I'm from Texas. We have meat in our vegetables.' Trenton Doyle Hancock

Taking a class Im going to look out for, It certainly would do no harm.

Nice spec, that would make a good replacement for my current model as i do like the Stich assist.

Suggestion: If you aren't already familiar with Backpackinglight.com, join and start tapping into the expertise there as well. Since light weight is clearly a priority for you, you'l find this a valuable resource. http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/index.html

The issue of cameras and photography is frequently addressed on BPL, and the have some reviews and a selection guide for cameras well suited for lightweight backpacking. http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/ss/Cameras%20&%20Photography/index.html

The BPL forums are also a valuable resource.

Hope that is of some help.

Dave
--
http://www.pbase.com/dsjtecserv

Ooh, thanks for that. --

Michael Gent said:

What do you guys think?

Click to expand...

Learn landscape composition. Alongside your camera's AEB and cheap, light tripod (maybe a teensy-mini one with flexy legs for standing on uneven surfaces, or perhaps just use a bean bag), your photos will be several squillion times better.

Once you've got the hang of composition and the settings you already have on your camera two things will have happened:

1. You'll have a better idea of what you need from the next camera.
2. There'll be better cameras to choose from.

Michael Gent said:

I think manufacturers need to look from outside the box for a new
modern form of camera control and labelling.

Click to expand...

The only manufacturer that has done this and offers the best controld and the most customizable (compact) cameras is Ricoh. Have a look at the Ricoh GX200 for example, THIS is how the controls in a camera should be implemented. Works like a Nikon dSLR but is way more customizable.

Panasonic has nice cameras but their controls feel more like they have been designed by computer geeks than photographers.

Have a look at my Ricoh GX200 review here where I provide more details on the controls:

http://ricohgrdiary.wordpress.com/2009/02/18/ricoh-gx200-review-part-1/

Basically it is using the front wheel to change apreture, the back rocker switch to change shutter speed, press it to get fast access to ISO, WB etc. Everything can be customized and the camera remembers everything. Oh and it has a step zoom so you can go from 24-28-35-50-72mm or 19-21-28-40-54mm when having the wideangle converter attached.

--
http://ricoh-gr-diary.blogspot.com/
http://ricohgrdiary.wordpress.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cristiansorega

Michael Gent said:

Lately Ive taken a greater interest in Photography to the point where
I nearly purchased a Nikon D40, this new toy would help me improve my
photography and I would own a 'real camera'. But I soon realised that
this would be a big mistake for 1 main reason. Bulk.
Being a Hiker Walker Camper Backpacker, weight is everything. I just
would’nt bring the DSLR along half the time. Unless I was prepared to
go out with the sole purpose of getting a pre-planned picture, it
just would not work.

Click to expand...

Good grief, the D40 only weighs 522g (1.2lb), only 360g more than the Panasonic. With a tiny pancake wideangle lens, surely that's not too much? If you really want to record your walks well, just regard it as an integral part of your kit.

--
Alex

Alex Leach said:

Good grief, the D40 only weighs 522g (1.2lb), only 360g more than the
Panasonic. With a tiny pancake wideangle lens, surely that's not too
much? If you really want to record your walks well, just regard it
as an integral part of your kit.

Click to expand...

Alex, you have to understand that in the world of lightweight backpacking, 1.2 lbs is HUGE. For perspective, a typical lightweight (as opposed to ultralight, which would be even less) base weight would be 10 to 15 lbs for everything other than food and water. In that context, most lightweight backpackers look at compacts in the range of less than 8 ounces and try to achieve optimum image quality within that limitation. The OP obviously considers weight a priority and is trying to find the optimum combination of weight, quality and versatility. So it's not quite as simple as you might assume.

Dave
--
http://www.pbase.com/dsjtecserv

To take classes will make your life easier. Knowing about the basics is essential. Only after that, we can make a good choice of the equipment according to our needs. FX30 is a good camera with limitations, it would satisfy the needs of the average beginner. Success,

Eduardo

dsjtecserv said:

Alex Leach said:

Good grief, the D40 only weighs 522g (1.2lb), only 360g more than the
Panasonic. With a tiny pancake wideangle lens, surely that's not too
much? If you really want to record your walks well, just regard it
as an integral part of your kit.

Click to expand...

Alex, you have to understand that in the world of lightweight
backpacking, 1.2 lbs is HUGE. For perspective, a typical lightweight
(as opposed to ultralight, which would be even less) base weight
would be 10 to 15 lbs for everything other than food and water. In
that context, most lightweight backpackers look at compacts in the
range of less than 8 ounces and try to achieve optimum image quality
within that limitation. The OP obviously considers weight a priority
and is trying to find the optimum combination of weight, quality and
versatility. So it's not quite as simple as you might assume.

Dave
--
http://www.pbase.com/dsjtecserv

Click to expand...

--
Chris, Broussard, LA

Certainly, if taking pictures is not a priority, then that is a viable option. But given that the original poster clearly wants to take pictures, what is the point of your post?

Dave
--
http://www.pbase.com/dsjtecserv

Outside said:

Outside said:

So looking for a better camera, Ive been reading up on the Panasonic
LX3, but reading the manual ahh, am I missing something here. Whats
wrong with a dial switch for exposure, a dial switch for sensitivity
a dial for aperture, stepped control for zoom so you can set the
focal length to whatever dimension you wish, and all work
independently and all immediately accessible.

Click to expand...

Like this one?

Outside said:

What do you guys think?
--

Click to expand...

Sorry, couldn't resist
--

Click to expand...

But, does it have face detection? Or a meter?

--

Your FX30 is a great camera. Learn how to use it. And, you don't need to use manual controls. You do need to be able to change ISO, though. That and zoom are about all you really need.