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... Good points.

Certainly, since I followed your advice and started using ISO Auto on the G10, noise became more manageable, but it is still there over ISO200.

I also think the G10 is a good all-rounder, but it is seriously lacking in the DR department. Even shooting at -0.7EV, or using Raw, DR is very weak and requires quite a few tricks to bring it out. I am enjoying it, but would not keep it simply for this very reason.

Similarly, in practical terms, ISO 800/1600 are just plain noisy. Sure, you can 'wash' them but detail, and colour, disappears rapidly.

Whilst they are quite different breeds of cameras, I think what I am seeing from F200EXR users is quite compelling. The point should be made that the IS on the F200EXR has also received 'good press' from the likes of Hugo. I would doubt that users really need to use ISO1600, probably not even 800, very often - Same as you don't need to use it so often on the G10.

The new post from Nico also shows that high(er) ISO's are not really necessary. Nice to have, if required, but with excellent IS, not a have to have.

Nico's post here :

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1012&message=31328958

--
Rgds, Dave.
Have fun - take lotsa pix.

My RedBubble Site - http://www.redbubble.com/people/pixplanet
 
But if I want a bulky camera with a flash attached I'd skip the G10 and go straight to the Oly E420 or Pana G1.
Considering IQ & features cm^3 the F200 just blasts away the G10.
 
julius07 said:
But if I want a bulky camera with a flash attached I'd skip the G10
and go straight to the Oly E420 or Pana G1.
Considering IQ & features cm^3 the F200 just blasts away the G10.

--
Click to expand...
Do you mean the shutter priority feature lacking in the F200, but present in the G10 and ANY worthy p&s for oh, let's see, subjects that move? Still life and landscapes, take the F200. For anything that moves, you can do some workarounds, but nothing is as concrete as shutter priority.
 
julius07 said:
But if I want a bulky camera with a flash attached I'd skip the G10
and go straight to the Oly E420 or Pana G1.
Click to expand...
And run afoul of the "no interchangeable lenses" rule at many venues ... that's one reason people buy pocketable cams in the first place ... and yes, the G10 requires a coat pocket.
julius07 said:
Considering IQ & features cm^3 the F200 just blasts away the G10.
Click to expand...
I wonder why it is that so many forum members lately feel compelled to compensate with brave declarations of victory in a non-contest ...

Anyone who wants the controls of a Canon G10 or Panasonic LX3 will be most unlikely to even look twice at anything made by Fuji ... they only make one body with advanced controls and it's bigger than many entry dSLRs these days ...

--
http://letkeman.net/Photos
http://kimletkeman.blogspot.com
 
... I've had the G10 a little over a week and played with all the settings. Over 600 images so far. It is certainly an enjoyable camera, but also frustrating in many ways.

I have found that iContrast can help in terms of lifting shadows, but does nothing to help highlight control.

The settings I have found, that work OK for me, are to keep ISO Auto on, sharpness down 1 notch and skin tone down 1 notch. Also, in high contrast light, I keep EV at -1/3 or -2/3. I've put a link to a whole bunch of stuff at the bottom.

Just below is an example of iContrast as compared to the S100 (sorry, I incorrectly named it iLight on the images).

I know the S100 is not really in this discussion, but from what I have seen of F200EXR images, they are getting DR which looks pretty much as the S100.

Anyway, the G10 is set with iContrast on and also set to -0.7EV. The S100, simply at Provia and 0EV.

Both cameras were 'centre' metering off the telephone below the open window.





Here is a whole bunch of G10 images I have taken recently.

http://www.pixplanet.biz/Posting-stuff_17.htm

--
Rgds, Dave.
Have fun - take lotsa pix.

My RedBubble Site - http://www.redbubble.com/people/pixplanet
 
Lloydy said:
I have found that iContrast can help in terms of lifting shadows, but
does nothing to help highlight control.
Click to expand...
Live histogram. Dials on the outside mean that you should never blow your highlights. Shoot RAW, since it compresses them well and handles RAW+jpeg very quickly.
Lloydy said:
The settings I have found, that work OK for me, are to keep ISO Auto
on, sharpness down 1 notch and skin tone down 1 notch. Also, in high
contrast light, I keep EV at -1/3 or -2/3. I've put a link to a whole
bunch of stuff at the bottom.
Click to expand...
I tend to shoot RAW+jpeg only, I use the histogram at the back at all times and shoot either manual mode or Av mode outside. I use the EV button as needed.
Lloydy said:
Just below is an example of iContrast as compared to the S100 (sorry,
I incorrectly named it iLight on the images).
Click to expand...
I don't use the feature, since I tend to ignore the jpegs. I prefer to pull up shadows and control highlights in ACR5. I mentioned because it was not clear that you knew about it.
Lloydy said:
I know the S100 is not really in this discussion, but from what I
have seen of F200EXR images, they are getting DR which looks pretty
much as the S100.
Click to expand...
They are getting superior DR in 800% mode. When they can find it ... seems many people shoot in the lesser modes instead for reasons I do not understand.

In the other modes, it's just d-lighting, like that of every other cam, although Fuji do try to drop the highlight exposure somewhat. That would help for people not used to basing exposure on the live histogram.
Lloydy said:
Anyway, the G10 is set with iContrast on and also set to -0.7EV. The
S100, simply at Provia and 0EV.
Click to expand...
Yes, Provia seems to have a far gentler processing curve than Velvia, which blows highlights and blocks shadows with abandon. But I favour RAW with ACR5 over all jpeg modes. In fact, I never use the jpegs I shoot, just the RAWs. In the end, I can always pull more detail that way. I plan to switch off the jpeg capture ...
Lloydy said:
Both cameras were 'centre' metering off the telephone below the open
window.
Click to expand...
Yeah ... the G10 shot needed more compensation. The histogram must have looked rather pegged on the right side for that shot.
Lloydy said:
Here is a whole bunch of G10 images I have taken recently.

http://www.pixplanet.biz/Posting-stuff_17.htm
Click to expand...
Not bad ... most have issues with softness and very harsh tone curves. I'd shoot in RAW and process in ACR5 to get better tone and sharpness ...

--
http://letkeman.net/Photos
http://kimletkeman.blogspot.com
 
theranman said:
With a few exceptions, I prefer the F200 in most of these.
--
Click to expand...
Lol - as ever, I agree with what you say.

I'm not saying the G10 is a "bad" camera, but straight out of the camera the F200 does look better, for my needs. Photos would need less PP for me. I have used the G9, and while it was a whole lot noiser than my F31 at 100%, when viewed as normal, it did give a better photo. A lot of the times, a much better photo! A lot of my photos were taken at low indoor light levels with the baby, so the Fuji won.

I still refuse to by a F200 though, but thats more to do with Fuji's 1 step forward, 3 steps back approach.

Sorry, for the rant, but make that 4 steps back....

--
Regards,
Towser

PS - Welcome back Kim! :)
 
Maybe it is my browser, but I can not get the actual G10 photos to appear from that website whether I use Firefox or IE!!

When I click on camera - the G10 comes up, but the photos are from an Ixus, not the G10. Or, the G10 does come up, but the photo is not available.

Are you all sure you are looking at G10 photos?

BTW, the G10 should be viewed at ISO 80, not ISO 100 for best resolution.

Best regards,

GB
--
Gingerbaker

http://www.pbase.com/gingerbaker/galleries
 
... With almost everything you say, based on one simple thing. If DR is not there to start, it is never recoverable.

Does not matter how you try to 'gloss' this - If it is not there, it is not there.

You allude that I do not know what I am doing - Get real man. I have been around cameras more than you have had hot dinners.

In a little over a week, I have shot more than 750+ images with the G10 in all modes, including Raw, iContrast, EV comp, etc., etc.. Yes, I can compensate for the highlight blowouts, but then shadow is completely gone.

iContrast does work - But only for shadow relief. Highlights are just not compensated for. The G10 cannot provide highlight relief, even shooting Raw, without really, really extensive PP work.

Sorry, but the G10 just does not cut it, without very extensive PP. I like it, but I only have it because it was free. I sure would not buy it !

Mind you, at ISO 80/100 with even lighting, it is excellent. Nonetheless, DR is pitifully lacking - In any mode.

--
Rgds, Dave.
Have fun - take lotsa pix.

My RedBubble Site - http://www.redbubble.com/people/pixplanet
 
Lloydy said:
... With almost everything you say, based on one simple thing. If DR
is not there to start, it is never recoverable.
Click to expand...
But losing highlights is not an indicator of a lack of DR. It is an indicator of an incorrect exposure (too hot.)
Lloydy said:
Does not matter how you try to 'gloss' this - If it is not there, it
is not there.
Click to expand...
If you lose highlights, that's your error. If you hold the highlights, and the shadows are too noisy once opened using something like ACR, then the camera had no more DR to give. You're in the former situation at this point.
Lloydy said:
You allude that I do not know what I am doing - Get real man. I have
been around cameras more than you have had hot dinners.
Click to expand...
I said no such thing. No need to get childish. Thumping one's chest is no substitute for skills.
Lloydy said:
In a little over a week, I have shot more than 750+ images with the
G10 in all modes, including Raw, iContrast, EV comp, etc., etc.. Yes,
I can compensate for the highlight blowouts, but then shadow is
completely gone.
Click to expand...
Quantity has never been a substitute for quality. Ever.

As for shadow being completely gone, I doubt it. Your shadows on the G10 image were brighter than the shadows on your S100 image if I remember correctly, certainly they were no darker. Thus, you had room to save the highlights and still get acceptable shadows. And shooting RAW and opening in ACR would have offered another stop of shadow detail, as described by DPR in their review.

Not sure why you insist that you've done everything you could ... it is clear that you have not.
Lloydy said:
iContrast does work - But only for shadow relief. Highlights are just
not compensated for. The G10 cannot provide highlight relief, even
shooting Raw, without really, really extensive PP work.
Click to expand...
Not true at all. A flick of a couple of dials in ACR is all that it takes. You should upgrade your CS2 to something modern so you can try out the new ACR ... it's quite something.
Lloydy said:
Sorry, but the G10 just does not cut it, without very extensive PP. I
like it, but I only have it because it was free. I sure would not buy
it !
Click to expand...
Again ... no need to get so aggressive. Your preference for the S100fs and jpeg has been duly noted many times. But if you plan on posting mediocre images from the G10 and then challenging the camera's capabilities based on inadequate skills, then you should expect a challenge, no?
Lloydy said:
Mind you, at ISO 80/100 with even lighting, it is excellent.
Nonetheless, DR is pitifully lacking - In any mode.
Click to expand...
No question that it does not have spectacular dynamic range. This is well documented on the DXO site.

But that does not mean that you have extracted what is there ... your G10 site is chock full of images with too much contrast. Since that is also how many of your S100fs images look, I think it is the way you process (or don't process) that makes the difference.

--
http://letkeman.net/Photos
http://kimletkeman.blogspot.com
 
OK. They do not supply an ISO 80 image from the G10.

The Fuji has no RAW output, I think. One really needs to compare both cams at their base ISO - 80 for the G10, 100 for the Fuji. The G10 also benefits quite a lot from RAW.

I think it is safe to say that the G10 at base ISO in Raw will outresolve the Fuji pretty easily. Will wait for the dpreview, I guess.
--
Gingerbaker

http://www.pbase.com/gingerbaker/galleries
 
gingerbaker said:
I think it is safe to say that the G10 at base ISO in Raw will
outresolve the Fuji pretty easily. Will wait for the dpreview, I
guess.
Click to expand...
At base ISO and RAW, I would tend to think so too because it does have more of 'em megapixels & a good lens. The F200EXR also has a great lens... perhaps even better... but what impresses me most is that the F200EXR's out-of-camera JPEG output is quite impressive to begin with even at high ISOs. Now if Fuji allows us access to RAW in a subsequent model... 'nuff said!

I have been following your posts recently in here. You are an extremely well informed and intelligent poster.

--
Click

 
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