Why bother shoot in RAW?

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I just spent all night finding out how to work with RAW images in Photoshop as I had heard that the RAW images retain more information than the JPEG's and, therefore, more can be done with them.

However, I found that all the tools for using RAW images convert to JPEG first anyways! I could understand TIFF, but going to JPEG seems to defeat the purpose of shooting them in RAW.

What gives?
 
Converting directly to JPG won’t give you any better results than the camera does. There should be more than enough threads about how to take advantage of the RAW format. Why don’t you read this?
  • Frank
I just spent all night finding out how to work with RAW images in
Photoshop as I had heard that the RAW images retain more
information than the JPEG's and, therefore, more can be done with
them.

However, I found that all the tools for using RAW images convert to
JPEG first anyways! I could understand TIFF, but going to JPEG
seems to defeat the purpose of shooting them in RAW.

What gives?
 
Main difference between RAW and JPEG is that RAW has 10 bit color, JPEG has 8 bit color. That means 4 times as many shades in RAW (256 vs 1024).

This assumes you convert to 16 bit TIFF (NOT 8 bit TIFF) or any other 16 bit image format.

Forget any software that converts RAW to JPEG. It does defeat the puropse.

You can also influence white balance, and in camera processing...

:) Matt
I just spent all night finding out how to work with RAW images in
Photoshop as I had heard that the RAW images retain more
information than the JPEG's and, therefore, more can be done with
them.

However, I found that all the tools for using RAW images convert to
JPEG first anyways! I could understand TIFF, but going to JPEG
seems to defeat the purpose of shooting them in RAW.

What gives?
 
Got it, thanks... I shall find something that converts to TIFF :o)
This assumes you convert to 16 bit TIFF (NOT 8 bit TIFF) or any
other 16 bit image format.

Forget any software that converts RAW to JPEG. It does defeat the
puropse.

You can also influence white balance, and in camera processing...

:) Matt
I just spent all night finding out how to work with RAW images in
Photoshop as I had heard that the RAW images retain more
information than the JPEG's and, therefore, more can be done with
them.

However, I found that all the tools for using RAW images convert to
JPEG first anyways! I could understand TIFF, but going to JPEG
seems to defeat the purpose of shooting them in RAW.

What gives?
 
I just spent all night finding out how to work with RAW images in
Photoshop as I had heard that the RAW images retain more
information than the JPEG's and, therefore, more can be done with
them.

However, I found that all the tools for using RAW images convert to
JPEG first anyways! I could understand TIFF, but going to JPEG
seems to defeat the purpose of shooting them in RAW.
You spent all night on this and found that all the tools convert only to jpeg? Were you drinking by any chance?
What gives?
Your conclusion is incorrect. Even the Canon converter converts to TIFF. The converter I use, BreezeBrowser, can convert to many different formats and can perform a lot of post processing on the way.

In my RAW workflow, if I do all my post-processing in BB then I may well output a JPEG. But remember, I still have the RAW file so if I don't like the results I can do it again with different settings. You can't do that if you create the JPEG in the camera.

---------------
http://edsphotos.us/
 
The canon software RAW converter (or something like that) will convert to 16 bit TIFF.
This assumes you convert to 16 bit TIFF (NOT 8 bit TIFF) or any
other 16 bit image format.

Forget any software that converts RAW to JPEG. It does defeat the
puropse.

You can also influence white balance, and in camera processing...

:) Matt
I just spent all night finding out how to work with RAW images in
Photoshop as I had heard that the RAW images retain more
information than the JPEG's and, therefore, more can be done with
them.

However, I found that all the tools for using RAW images convert to
JPEG first anyways! I could understand TIFF, but going to JPEG
seems to defeat the purpose of shooting them in RAW.

What gives?
 
http://www.colorshots.com/cs101e/html/tipps_raw.html
http://www.creativepro.com/story/feature/7627.html
http://home.austin.rr.com/g2darkroom/advantages_of_linear_modes_.htm

You can even convert RAW to TIFF using Zoombrowser! go to the top toolbar;File, the Preferences, then Image Format then select TIFF. The linear conversions are quite a bit more advanced than the straight Canon conversion. Master that one first.
Mike K
I just spent all night finding out how to work with RAW images in
Photoshop as I had heard that the RAW images retain more
information than the JPEG's and, therefore, more can be done with
them.

However, I found that all the tools for using RAW images convert to
JPEG first anyways! I could understand TIFF, but going to JPEG
seems to defeat the purpose of shooting them in RAW.

What gives?
 
http://www.breezesys.com

Give Breezebrowser (free trial) and Breeze Downloader (free) a try.

Makes life easy and correctable.

You don't need anything else other than PS and Breezebrowser converts your image while at the same time loading it straight into PS for more work should you wish.
--
Bryan

What if this is as good at it gets
 
I just spent all night finding out how to work with RAW images in
Photoshop as I had heard that the RAW images retain more
information than the JPEG's and, therefore, more can be done with
them.

However, I found that all the tools for using RAW images convert to
JPEG first anyways! I could understand TIFF, but going to JPEG
seems to defeat the purpose of shooting them in RAW.

What gives?
i never saw the point. the only good thing it does, is it gives you the lighting modes. that's it. i can do that in photoshop.

raw is bigger, a pain to work with, and there is nothing more it can do for me. everything i shoot is in JPG - and the funny thing is, people have seen what i've done - and they think i shoot in raw.

---Mike Savad

--
http://www.pbase.com/savad/

http://www.photosig.com/userphotos.php?id=9050
 
i dunno about that... i've taken them both side by side, tripod mount, and i've noticed no difference in quality at all. and that's before the conversion.

---Mike Savad
This assumes you convert to 16 bit TIFF (NOT 8 bit TIFF) or any
other 16 bit image format.

Forget any software that converts RAW to JPEG. It does defeat the
puropse.

You can also influence white balance, and in camera processing...

:) Matt
I just spent all night finding out how to work with RAW images in
Photoshop as I had heard that the RAW images retain more
information than the JPEG's and, therefore, more can be done with
them.

However, I found that all the tools for using RAW images convert to
JPEG first anyways! I could understand TIFF, but going to JPEG
seems to defeat the purpose of shooting them in RAW.

What gives?
--
http://www.pbase.com/savad/

http://www.photosig.com/userphotos.php?id=9050
 
Shoot Raw, then convert to linear Tiff. You'll see the advantages right there. The linear conversation gives you a wider dynamic range. I for one always use Linear conversion to TIff and then get the image into photoshop for further manipulation if needed. The advantages of a linear workflow are very real and evident. If I was at home, I would post to pictures converted normally and Linear, you would clearly see the difference.

There is also the advantages of post shoot white balance adjustement, but on the field you just make the right selection for the light available and the results are the same, but a JPEG does not give you the image quality of the linear tiff file. Also, if you manipulate the picture in photoshop, the jpeg qulity diminishes while the Tiff stays the same. Not really apparent with a small resized file looked at on a computer moniter, but if you print large photos (13x19), it's really apparent.

--
Joel
http://www.pbase.com/joels/galleries

'A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.'
 
First of all, it's extremely tough if not impossible to fix serious WB problems in Photoshop, like images shot with Daylight white balance under tungsten lighting. Just one click to fix it in the RAW conversion program.

True, RAW results in bigger files and requires more work, but I've seen some rather remarkable improvements from using RAW and the work always pays off IMO. The only catch is one needs to know Photoshop pretty well to really take advantage of them. I haven't seen too much difference using the straight Canon RAW conversion (even to linear Tiff), but non-Canon RAW conversion software like Powershovel can do wonders for resolution, dynamic range, and colour fidelity, IMO.

See these links for examples:
http://www.morpheusmultimedia.com/ps/powershovel_res-colour.html
http://www.morpheusmultimedia.com/ps/powershovel_sample.html

Michael
i never saw the point. the only good thing it does, is it gives you
the lighting modes. that's it. i can do that in photoshop.

raw is bigger, a pain to work with, and there is nothing more it
can do for me. everything i shoot is in JPG - and the funny thing
is, people have seen what i've done - and they think i shoot in raw.

---Mike Savad
--
http://www.pbase.com/mooremwm
http://www.photosig.com/userphotos.php?id=7178
 
I just spent all night finding out how to work with RAW images in
Photoshop as I had heard that the RAW images retain more
information than the JPEG's and, therefore, more can be done with
them.

However, I found that all the tools for using RAW images convert to
JPEG first anyways! I could understand TIFF, but going to JPEG
seems to defeat the purpose of shooting them in RAW.
Others have already posted a variety of responses, so I'll inject only my two cents. The main advantage to RAW may not always be apparent when looking at a well-exposed, properly balanced photo. Many people will say they've shot in RAW and compared against JPEG with no visible difference. I don't doubt that this is sometimes true. The main advantage to RAW is the flexibility it gives you to tweak less-than-perfect shots. Such shots may be near-perfect and just requiring that something extra to make them great, or you may be trying to salvage a poor shot and make it viewable.

These are what I feel to be the key places where you'll notice the difference:

1. Exposure Adjustment and Post Processing

If you convert from RAW to 16-bit TIFF, you'll have 10 bits per pixel per color instead of 8. You won't necessarily notice the difference on a well-exposed shot straight from the camera. However, what if your shot is underexposed or features too little contrast and you need to reset the white and black points to expand the histogram? With 8-bits, you'll open up holes: certain shades will simply be missing from your final results. Go too far and you'll notice this visibly as "posterization."

Also, the 10-bit advantage extends beyond this. Any time you process an image,you get round-off mathematical error in the final result. These errors accumulate as you continue to apply post processing. 10-bit data can express a value with 4x greater precision, and so accumulates visible errors much more slowly.

Finally, and going back to exposure adjustment, try to save a very underexposed shot without RAW. If you just adjust levels, you may be able to bring some detail out of the darkness. However, colors will be desaturated. This is part of Canon's noise reduction. Desaturating colors at low-levels also reduces shadow noise. Good for noise, bad for saving an underexposed shot. For this, you can convert from RAW to 16-bit linear TIFF and avoid this desaturation.

2. Dynamic Range

Often, a shot will feature highlights that are just blown out to white due to the wide dynamic range of the shot or to overexposure. Often, the RAW data file will actually preserve detail in these highlights. I'm not sure why this detail is lost during conversion to JPEG or regular TIFF, but the detail can be retrieved using linear conversion. I posted an example of this in the forum, but I'll post the links again here.

First shot: RAW-to-TIFF (using low contrast, to try to preserve as much dynamic range as possible)

http://www.pbase.com/image/3295638

Second shot: RAW-to-TIFF combined with RAW-to-linear-TIFF (using Breezebrowswer, which merges the two together to preserve highlight detail)

http://www.pbase.com/image/3295639

Notice the third house from the left - the white one. In the first shot, the house is blown out. You can't make out the horizontal lines of the house's siding. No amount of adjustment will bring back the detail. Note that this was already converted with contrast set to low, so one can't retort that low contrast setting would have prevented this.

The second shot reveals this detail, making the house look more natural and less of a solid white square. The sky is also less washed out.

Hope this help whet your appetite for using RAW.

David
 
Another benefit of RAW mode beyond more dynamic range is that one can choose from a variety of interpolation algorithms. Most conversion programs, Breeze, YARC, etc. use Canon's own routines for interpolating the Bayer pattern into a usable image.

This interpolation affects not only the amount and accuracy of fine detail, but of colors as well. Powershovel as well as a couple of other programs use their own interpolation algorithms. I personally use Powershovel because it does give me more accurate colors.

Bayer pattern interpolation is something that digital cameras will have to live with for many years to come. In that time new interpolation algorithms will be developed. Recording images in RAW wil allow you to apply those algorithms to old images and see the benefits of better detail and color rendering.

--
http://www.photosig.com/userphotos.php?id=7986
I just spent all night finding out how to work with RAW images in
Photoshop as I had heard that the RAW images retain more
information than the JPEG's and, therefore, more can be done with
them.

However, I found that all the tools for using RAW images convert to
JPEG first anyways! I could understand TIFF, but going to JPEG
seems to defeat the purpose of shooting them in RAW.
Others have already posted a variety of responses, so I'll inject
only my two cents. The main advantage to RAW may not always be
apparent when looking at a well-exposed, properly balanced photo.
Many people will say they've shot in RAW and compared against JPEG
with no visible difference. I don't doubt that this is sometimes
true. The main advantage to RAW is the flexibility it gives you to
tweak less-than-perfect shots. Such shots may be near-perfect and
just requiring that something extra to make them great, or you may
be trying to salvage a poor shot and make it viewable.

These are what I feel to be the key places where you'll notice the
difference:

1. Exposure Adjustment and Post Processing

If you convert from RAW to 16-bit TIFF, you'll have 10 bits per
pixel per color instead of 8. You won't necessarily notice the
difference on a well-exposed shot straight from the camera.
However, what if your shot is underexposed or features too little
contrast and you need to reset the white and black points to expand
the histogram? With 8-bits, you'll open up holes: certain shades
will simply be missing from your final results. Go too far and
you'll notice this visibly as "posterization."

Also, the 10-bit advantage extends beyond this. Any time you
process an image,you get round-off mathematical error in the final
result. These errors accumulate as you continue to apply post
processing. 10-bit data can express a value with 4x greater
precision, and so accumulates visible errors much more slowly.

Finally, and going back to exposure adjustment, try to save a very
underexposed shot without RAW. If you just adjust levels, you may
be able to bring some detail out of the darkness. However, colors
will be desaturated. This is part of Canon's noise reduction.
Desaturating colors at low-levels also reduces shadow noise. Good
for noise, bad for saving an underexposed shot. For this, you can
convert from RAW to 16-bit linear TIFF and avoid this desaturation.

2. Dynamic Range

Often, a shot will feature highlights that are just blown out to
white due to the wide dynamic range of the shot or to overexposure.
Often, the RAW data file will actually preserve detail in these
highlights. I'm not sure why this detail is lost during conversion
to JPEG or regular TIFF, but the detail can be retrieved using
linear conversion. I posted an example of this in the forum, but
I'll post the links again here.

First shot: RAW-to-TIFF (using low contrast, to try to preserve as
much dynamic range as possible)

http://www.pbase.com/image/3295638

Second shot: RAW-to-TIFF combined with RAW-to-linear-TIFF (using
Breezebrowswer, which merges the two together to preserve highlight
detail)

http://www.pbase.com/image/3295639

Notice the third house from the left - the white one. In the first
shot, the house is blown out. You can't make out the horizontal
lines of the house's siding. No amount of adjustment will bring
back the detail. Note that this was already converted with contrast
set to low, so one can't retort that low contrast setting would
have prevented this.

The second shot reveals this detail, making the house look more
natural and less of a solid white square. The sky is also less
washed out.

Hope this help whet your appetite for using RAW.

David
 
I just spent all night finding out how to work with RAW images in
Photoshop as I had heard that the RAW images retain more
information than the JPEG's and, therefore, more can be done with
them.

However, I found that all the tools for using RAW images convert to
JPEG first anyways! I could understand TIFF, but going to JPEG
seems to defeat the purpose of shooting them in RAW.
Others have already posted a variety of responses, so I'll inject
only my two cents. The main advantage to RAW may not always be
apparent when looking at a well-exposed, properly balanced photo.
Many people will say they've shot in RAW and compared against JPEG
with no visible difference. I don't doubt that this is sometimes
true. The main advantage to RAW is the flexibility it gives you to
tweak less-than-perfect shots. Such shots may be near-perfect and
just requiring that something extra to make them great, or you may
be trying to salvage a poor shot and make it viewable.

These are what I feel to be the key places where you'll notice the
difference:

1. Exposure Adjustment and Post Processing

If you convert from RAW to 16-bit TIFF, you'll have 10 bits per
pixel per color instead of 8. You won't necessarily notice the
difference on a well-exposed shot straight from the camera.
However, what if your shot is underexposed or features too little
contrast and you need to reset the white and black points to expand
the histogram? With 8-bits, you'll open up holes: certain shades
will simply be missing from your final results. Go too far and
you'll notice this visibly as "posterization."

Also, the 10-bit advantage extends beyond this. Any time you
process an image,you get round-off mathematical error in the final
result. These errors accumulate as you continue to apply post
processing. 10-bit data can express a value with 4x greater
precision, and so accumulates visible errors much more slowly.

Finally, and going back to exposure adjustment, try to save a very
underexposed shot without RAW. If you just adjust levels, you may
be able to bring some detail out of the darkness. However, colors
will be desaturated. This is part of Canon's noise reduction.
Desaturating colors at low-levels also reduces shadow noise. Good
for noise, bad for saving an underexposed shot. For this, you can
convert from RAW to 16-bit linear TIFF and avoid this desaturation.

2. Dynamic Range

Often, a shot will feature highlights that are just blown out to
white due to the wide dynamic range of the shot or to overexposure.
Often, the RAW data file will actually preserve detail in these
highlights. I'm not sure why this detail is lost during conversion
to JPEG or regular TIFF, but the detail can be retrieved using
linear conversion. I posted an example of this in the forum, but
I'll post the links again here.

First shot: RAW-to-TIFF (using low contrast, to try to preserve as
much dynamic range as possible)

http://www.pbase.com/image/3295638

Second shot: RAW-to-TIFF combined with RAW-to-linear-TIFF (using
Breezebrowswer, which merges the two together to preserve highlight
detail)

http://www.pbase.com/image/3295639

Notice the third house from the left - the white one. In the first
shot, the house is blown out. You can't make out the horizontal
lines of the house's siding. No amount of adjustment will bring
back the detail. Note that this was already converted with contrast
set to low, so one can't retort that low contrast setting would
have prevented this.

The second shot reveals this detail, making the house look more
natural and less of a solid white square. The sky is also less
washed out.

Hope this help whet your appetite for using RAW.

David
unfortunally, for us the pro90 g1 users - all those programs don't support our cameras in that way. from my tests this morning, it showed me that the jpg was a little more red, and the raw a little more green. when converted to tif. and it refused to convert it into anything but a 8bit file :(

---Mike Savad

--
http://www.pbase.com/savad/

http://www.photosig.com/userphotos.php?id=9050
 

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