12mp: beginning of the end of mp race?

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People usually cite the noise as the problem they see in high mega
pixel cameras. Since the Foveon sensor is much noisier than other
sensors, I don't see how Foveon can be seen as a main stream
alternative.
I don't think Foven sensors are noisy, per se. Their real problem, noise-wise, is that the color channels aren't really separated very well. The top layer is nearly panchromatic, with a bias towards blue. The second layer captures mainly red and green (a wide yellow band, if you will), and the bottom layer mainly only catches red photons. Lots of subtraction and differentiation need to be used to get RGB from such pale pseudo-RGB RAW data, resulting in the noise emphasizing itself as chromatic noise. There is also the issue of zero-sum blotches in the blue and green channels, which are visible deep in the shadows.

If you add the green and blue channels, you get a fairly clean cyan channel, and the red doesn't have those blotches, so you can get panchromatic B&W, or red-filtered or cyan-filtered B&W from the sensor with normal noise levels.

--
John

 
...and that is diffraction.

As it is, 12 MP APS-C cameras are diffraction-limited between f/11 and f/8, depending on the sensor and the exact photosite size. What would be the photosite size on a 40 MP FF camera?

One thing about having a very dense (high MP count) sensor is that the AA filter is no longer needed. In effect, the lens becomes the AA filter. That is the ideal in a Bayer CFA camera, and we're getting pretty close with the 24 MP FF cameras from Sony and Nikon.

I guess the most important question to ask is, can the viewer see a difference between a 40 MP Bayer CFA sensor-created image, on a large print, and a 40 MP image created from a 10 MP Foveon sensor that was up-rezzed 100% (2x) in terms of actual resolved detail? If the answer is, "No" then the 10 MP Foveon is good enough. I've proven to my satisfaction that a 2x up-rezzed 4.3 MP Foveon image compares very favorably to a 14 MP Bayer CFA image... and a 15 MP Foveon image (from a stitched multi-row panorama) is capable of making very large, very sharp prints.

--
'Do you think a man can change his destiny?'
'I think a man does what he can until his destiny is revealed.'
 
I can assure you that John is not forgetting diffraction. The 24 MP FF cameras are miles away from being diffraction limited - just look at any lens test site and see how many lenses are well over Nyquist for good portions of their aperture range.

As a design goal for sensor density past the point of vanishing returns, one probably wants to start with about 10% MTF at f1.0, for a bit of margin. Then perhaps a four times oversampling to allow high quality digital spatial frequency response shaping. I haven't worked out how many megapixels that would be, but its a lot. The great thing about pixel density is, up to a limit, it doesn't cost anything.
...and that is diffraction.

As it is, 12 MP APS-C cameras are diffraction-limited between f/11
and f/8, depending on the sensor and the exact photosite size. What
would be the photosite size on a 40 MP FF camera?

One thing about having a very dense (high MP count) sensor is that
the AA filter is no longer needed. In effect, the lens becomes the AA
filter. That is the ideal in a Bayer CFA camera, and we're getting
pretty close with the 24 MP FF cameras from Sony and Nikon.

I guess the most important question to ask is, can the viewer see a
difference between a 40 MP Bayer CFA sensor-created image, on a large
print, and a 40 MP image created from a 10 MP Foveon sensor that was
up-rezzed 100% (2x) in terms of actual resolved detail? If the answer
is, "No" then the 10 MP Foveon is good enough. I've proven to my
satisfaction that a 2x up-rezzed 4.3 MP Foveon image compares very
favorably to a 14 MP Bayer CFA image... and a 15 MP Foveon image
(from a stitched multi-row panorama) is capable of making very large,
very sharp prints.
Your satisfaction might not be adequate for some of us. I suspect you are predisposed to like Foveon in any case.

--
Bob

 
I can assure you that John is not forgetting diffraction. The 24 MP
FF cameras are miles away from being diffraction limited - just look
at any lens test site and see how many lenses are well over Nyquist
for good portions of their aperture range.
As a design goal for sensor density past the point of vanishing
returns, one probably wants to start with about 10% MTF at f1.0, for
a bit of margin. Then perhaps a four times oversampling to allow high
quality digital spatial frequency response shaping. I haven't worked
out how many megapixels that would be, but its a lot.
That is a huge number. At f4 the 10% MTF criteria equates to 1.3 micron spacing and that isn't including increasing the megapixels for Bayer pattern and antialiasing filter loss. Here is a post with a table of some pixel counts versus f-stop with a further link to my post where I explain the calculation:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=30448212

I personally don't think we need spacing based on an aperture of f/1: as you can see f/4 already results in a huge pixel count and I expect that at their optimum f-stop some lenses actually resolve close to the f/4 spacing for the 10% criteria. A diffraction limited f/2.8 lens would need 0.9 micron pixel spacing to sample the 10% MTF data at the wavelength of green light. That would be a Gigapixel full frame camera.
 
I can assure you that John is not forgetting diffraction. The 24 MP
FF cameras are miles away from being diffraction limited - just look
at any lens test site and see how many lenses are well over Nyquist
for good portions of their aperture range.
As a design goal for sensor density past the point of vanishing
returns, one probably wants to start with about 10% MTF at f1.0, for
a bit of margin. Then perhaps a four times oversampling to allow high
quality digital spatial frequency response shaping. I haven't worked
out how many megapixels that would be, but its a lot.
That is a huge number.
Yup
At f4 the 10% MTF criteria equates to 1.3
micron spacing and that isn't including increasing the megapixels for
Bayer pattern and antialiasing filter loss. Here is a post with a
table of some pixel counts versus f-stop with a further link to my
post where I explain the calculation:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=30448212
Thanks
I personally don't think we need spacing based on an aperture of f/1:
as you can see f/4 already results in a huge pixel count
There is a point there. f/1 is extreme. I have several lenses wider than f/4 but I don't think I have any where the resolution peak is below f/4, and therefore none capable of rendering better than a perfect diffraction limited lens at f/4. Worthwhile building into the spec room for improvement, though. If the camera companies pile some development effort into primes, we might see it.
and I expect
that at their optimum f-stop some lenses actually resolve close to
the f/4 spacing for the 10% criteria. A diffraction limited f/2.8
lens would need 0.9 micron pixel spacing to sample the 10% MTF data
at the wavelength of green light. That would be a Gigapixel full
frame camera.
and that's without the oversampling margin! Thanks for doing the sums. i was too lazy.

The point is about these numbers is that 24.4MP in a FF is but a fleabite when it comes to the pixel counts needed to really do things properly.
--
Bob

 
The formula is:
0.61*wavelength*f-number (half the Rayleigh criteria separation).
Which for green light in the center of the visible spectrum equates to:
f-stop/3
Nice convenient simple formula. Time to invent a bit of jargon 'third f-number design rules' sounds suitably obscure and liable to misinterpretation. So when i talk about designing to third f-number design rules, you'll know what I mean.

--
Bob

 
and I expect
that at their optimum f-stop some lenses actually resolve close to
the f/4 spacing for the 10% criteria. A diffraction limited f/2.8
lens would need 0.9 micron pixel spacing to sample the 10% MTF data
at the wavelength of green light. That would be a Gigapixel full
frame camera.
and that's without the oversampling margin!
You don't really need your large oversampling margins. If you upsample via deconvolution then no oversampling is really necessary. You do still need additional sampling for Bayer sensors though since the unambiguous luminance information is at 1.4x the pixel spacing and the color information is sampled at an even lower resolution. The bottom line is that for f/4 a 0.9 micron pixel Bayer array camera (fstop/3/1.4) would collect most of the available information. If it had a 4000 e- saturation count and 1 e- read noise at base ISO it could capture amazing images.
 
On paper, the D3 competes with the 1DIII. Realistically, it competes with just about any FF body and quite a few APS/C bodies, as D3 owners have moved there from a variety of platforms. Arguably, it's closest competition right now is the D700, and that's more a question of body ruggedness than capability.

What set the D3 and D700 apart from the 1DsIII, 5DII, and A900, at least from what I've seen, is their no excuses performance, no weak areas. May not have the MP of the other bodies, but Nikon gets the most out of them, under just about any circumstance.
 
and I expect
that at their optimum f-stop some lenses actually resolve close to
the f/4 spacing for the 10% criteria. A diffraction limited f/2.8
lens would need 0.9 micron pixel spacing to sample the 10% MTF data
at the wavelength of green light. That would be a Gigapixel full
frame camera.
and that's without the oversampling margin!
You don't really need your large oversampling margins. If you
upsample via deconvolution then no oversampling is really necessary.
Upsampling doesn't have the same effect. Read the Wikipedia article on oversampling ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oversampling ) to understand the benefits it can have. These apply equally to the spatial as well as the temporal domain.
You do still need additional sampling for Bayer sensors though since
the unambiguous luminance information is at 1.4x the pixel spacing
and the color information is sampled at an even lower resolution. The
bottom line is that for f/4 a 0.9 micron pixel Bayer array camera
(fstop/3/1.4) would collect most of the available information. If it
had a 4000 e- saturation count and 1 e- read noise at base ISO it
could capture amazing images.
4000 e- for a 0.9μm pixel would imply long exposures or huge conversion efficiency. It's a photoelectron density of around 5000 e- μm^2, compared with the D3's 917 e- μm^2. Either, that sensor needs a 5 times efficiency gain over the D3 (currently the best in the business) or its base ISO will be 32. Truly the K25 of the digital world. In practice, it wouldn't need anything like that photoelectron density to outperform current sensors.

--
Bob

 
You don't really need your large oversampling margins. If you
upsample via deconvolution then no oversampling is really necessary.
Upsampling doesn't have the same effect. Read the Wikipedia article
on oversampling ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oversampling ) to
understand the benefits it can have. These apply equally to the
spatial as well as the temporal domain.
I am very well aware of the uses of oversampling. (This is within my area of expertise.) Diffraction means there is perfectly zero signal above the diffraction cutoff frequency so oversampling beyond that point for antialiasing is unnecessary. It is also more efficient to achieve dynamic range directly than with oversampling for this application. (We won't be using delta-sigma converters.)
You do still need additional sampling for Bayer sensors though since
the unambiguous luminance information is at 1.4x the pixel spacing
and the color information is sampled at an even lower resolution. The
bottom line is that for f/4 a 0.9 micron pixel Bayer array camera
(fstop/3/1.4) would collect most of the available information. If it
had a 4000 e- saturation count and 1 e- read noise at base ISO it
could capture amazing images.
4000 e- for a 0.9μm pixel would imply long exposures or huge
conversion efficiency. It's a photoelectron density of around 5000
e- μm^2, compared with the D3's 917 e- μm^2. Either, that
sensor needs a 5 times efficiency gain over the D3 (currently the
best in the business) or its base ISO will be 32. Truly the K25 of
the digital world. In practice, it wouldn't need anything like that
photoelectron density to outperform current sensors.
I was thinking some gain in QE plus a base ISO of 40 to 50. I wasn't thinking of outperforming current sensors, I was thinking what would be needed to be worth the trouble of increasing pixel count from a future camera with 2 micron pixels.
 
I calculated the 40 to 50 ISO from the 5D2 e- saturation count for 100 ISO. According to DXO the saturation ISO for the 5D2 is actually 73 so the 40-50 EI value would include some headroom. The saturation ISO would therefore be about 32.
 
You don't really need your large oversampling margins. If you
upsample via deconvolution then no oversampling is really necessary.
Upsampling doesn't have the same effect. Read the Wikipedia article
on oversampling ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oversampling ) to
understand the benefits it can have. These apply equally to the
spatial as well as the temporal domain.
I am very well aware of the uses of oversampling. (This is within my
area of expertise.) Diffraction means there is perfectly zero signal
above the diffraction cutoff frequency so oversampling beyond that
point for antialiasing is unnecessary. It is also more efficient to
achieve dynamic range directly than with oversampling for this
application. (We won't be using delta-sigma converters.)
Well, we might be. You don't know what 'this application' is yet. More particularly, oversampling at sufficient bit depth for the tiny pixels allows options that just sufficient sampling doesn't. The small bit depth also opens up interesting hardware options, like digitisation in the pixel. If it was such a poor idea, Eric Fossum wouldn't be pursuing it.
You do still need additional sampling for Bayer sensors though since
the unambiguous luminance information is at 1.4x the pixel spacing
and the color information is sampled at an even lower resolution. The
bottom line is that for f/4 a 0.9 micron pixel Bayer array camera
(fstop/3/1.4) would collect most of the available information. If it
had a 4000 e- saturation count and 1 e- read noise at base ISO it
could capture amazing images.
4000 e- for a 0.9μm pixel would imply long exposures or huge
conversion efficiency. It's a photoelectron density of around 5000
e- μm^2, compared with the D3's 917 e- μm^2. Either, that
sensor needs a 5 times efficiency gain over the D3 (currently the
best in the business) or its base ISO will be 32. Truly the K25 of
the digital world. In practice, it wouldn't need anything like that
photoelectron density to outperform current sensors.
I was thinking some gain in QE plus a base ISO of 40 to 50. I wasn't
thinking of outperforming current sensors, I was thinking what would
be needed to be worth the trouble of increasing pixel count from a
future camera with 2 micron pixels.
If you aren't thinking of outperforming current sensors then you only need the same photoelectron density, about 800 e- in a 0.9μm pixel, and just 10 bit digitisation. The beneficial effects of high pixel density make it 'worth the trouble' by itself. In truth, it's not necessarily that much trouble, either, but it does require more processor power and memory.
--
Bob

 
...and that is diffraction.

As it is, 12 MP APS-C cameras are diffraction-limited between f/11
and f/8, depending on the sensor and the exact photosite size. What
would be the photosite size on a 40 MP FF camera?

One thing about having a very dense (high MP count) sensor is that
the AA filter is no longer needed. In effect, the lens becomes the AA
filter. That is the ideal in a Bayer CFA camera, and we're getting
pretty close with the 24 MP FF cameras from Sony and Nikon.
For some lenses, but for others, 24MP is still very far away, and quite coarse.
I guess the most important question to ask is, can the viewer see a
difference between a 40 MP Bayer CFA sensor-created image, on a large
print, and a 40 MP image created from a 10 MP Foveon sensor that was
up-rezzed 100% (2x) in terms of actual resolved detail? If the answer
is, "No" then the 10 MP Foveon is good enough. I've proven to my
satisfaction that a 2x up-rezzed 4.3 MP Foveon image compares very
favorably to a 14 MP Bayer CFA image... and a 15 MP Foveon image
(from a stitched multi-row panorama) is capable of making very large,
very sharp prints.
Maybe you are very easy to fool. When I see a sharp Sigma image (I say Sigma rather than Foveon, because SIGMA , not Foveon, chose to omit an AA filter), I see a very artificial texture, where most of the eye-candy fast transients are due to blind lines between the pixels, with a "snap-to-grid" effect.

--
John

 
I am very well aware of the uses of oversampling. (This is within my
area of expertise.) Diffraction means there is perfectly zero signal
above the diffraction cutoff frequency so oversampling beyond that
point for antialiasing is unnecessary. It is also more efficient to
achieve dynamic range directly than with oversampling for this
application. (We won't be using delta-sigma converters.)
Well, we might be. You don't know what 'this application' is yet.
Are you referring to delta-sigma converters? Spatially? With noise shaping via a feedback loop filter in the spatial domain? I would like to see how that works.
More particularly, oversampling at sufficient bit depth for the tiny
pixels allows options that just sufficient sampling doesn't. The
small bit depth also opens up interesting hardware options, like
digitisation in the pixel. If it was such a poor idea, Eric Fossum
wouldn't be pursuing it.
Oh, there are some possibilities for tiny pixels, sure. But you don't need significant oversampling above the diffraction cutoff Nyquest spacing because any finer spacing contains zero information. I wonder if Eric is going to perform data compression within the array to lower the communications bandwidth? Replacing a simple count with information that includes photon location will be a real data hog.
If you aren't thinking of outperforming current sensors then you only
need the same photoelectron density, about 800 e- in a 0.9μm
pixel, and just 10 bit digitisation. The beneficial effects of high
pixel density make it 'worth the trouble' by itself. In truth, it's
not necessarily that much trouble, either, but it does require more
processor power and memory.
I meant that I was thinking of how to outperform a camera which is already far better than current ones. To really make a Gigapixel camera worthwhile I would like to have high quality pixels which means getting the shot noise down. Then with new design lenses you could significantly outperform the mere 4 foot by 6 foot at 250 DPI image that a 2 micron pixel full frame camera would produce.
 
You don't really need your large oversampling margins. If you
upsample via deconvolution then no oversampling is really necessary.
You do still need additional sampling for Bayer sensors though since
the unambiguous luminance information is at 1.4x the pixel spacing
and the color information is sampled at an even lower resolution.
Full demosaicing with an abstraction of luminance becomes totally unnecessary
once you get to a certain level of oversampling.

It is only desirable for historic sensors because of the coarse pixel resolution.

Do you see any abstraction of luminance or chroma in slide film? No; just three layers of color. It is not essential.

--
John

 
4000 e- for a 0.9μm pixel would imply long exposures or huge
conversion efficiency. It's a photoelectron density of around 5000
e- μm^2, compared with the D3's 917 e- μm^2. Either, that
sensor needs a 5 times efficiency gain over the D3 (currently the
best in the business)
Are you confusing quantum efficiency and maximum photon capacity per unit of area? The D3 has one of the lowest maximums of current cameras. 1300 to 1600 is the norm these days.

The D3 has a higher-than-average effective QE, because of its microlenses, and low-saturation CFA.

--
John

 
4000 e- for a 0.9μm pixel would imply long exposures or huge
conversion efficiency. It's a photoelectron density of around 5000
e- μm^2, compared with the D3's 917 e- μm^2. Either, that
sensor needs a 5 times efficiency gain over the D3 (currently the
best in the business)
Are you confusing quantum efficiency and maximum photon capacity per
unit of area? The D3 has one of the lowest maximums of current
cameras. 1300 to 1600 is the norm these days.
Don't think I am. The D3 has high QE and low photoelectron density - that gives it a high base ISO, which is one of the reasons it has good high ISO performance. The point is, if you have high photoelectron density, you need more photons to fill it up. That either means big exposures (low ISO) or high QE. I chose the D3 as a comparison because it has the highest current QE. If I'd chosen something else (say the 5DII like DSP) the result would be the same, as DSP showed. The ratio of photoelectron densities is lower, but so is the base ISO.
The D3 has a higher-than-average effective QE, because of its
microlenses, and low-saturation CFA.
Probably about the maximum that can be achieved without something radical in the technology.

--
Bob

 
I am very well aware of the uses of oversampling. (This is within my
area of expertise.) Diffraction means there is perfectly zero signal
above the diffraction cutoff frequency so oversampling beyond that
point for antialiasing is unnecessary. It is also more efficient to
achieve dynamic range directly than with oversampling for this
application. (We won't be using delta-sigma converters.)
Well, we might be. You don't know what 'this application' is yet.
Are you referring to delta-sigma converters? Spatially? With noise
shaping via a feedback loop filter in the spatial domain? I would
like to see how that works.
Spatially and two dimensionally. I've been thinking how that might work for a while. The nice bit is that you can put the front end comparator of the delta-sigma right in the pixel, which must be as low a noise configuration as you can get - direct to digital. The operating frequencies for the delta-sigmas get a bit extreme though - per column isn't enough to hack it. Splitting the columns in two with converters top and bottom might just do it.

Edit: forgot to add. Another interesting possibility with this scheme is a CFA operating at less than per pixel frequency. (but still above the diffraction limit). The whole array is digitised in one go, and colour information can be decoded from the resultant data stream, just like old style analog colour TV, with colour carriers modulated onto the main luminance signal. Not my idea, papers have already been published on this.
More particularly, oversampling at sufficient bit depth for the tiny
pixels allows options that just sufficient sampling doesn't. The
small bit depth also opens up interesting hardware options, like
digitisation in the pixel. If it was such a poor idea, Eric Fossum
wouldn't be pursuing it.
Oh, there are some possibilities for tiny pixels, sure. But you don't
need significant oversampling above the diffraction cutoff Nyquest
spacing because any finer spacing contains zero information.
Who said 'need', we're talking interesting design possibilities here. You don't 'need' 24 bits per sample or 64kHz sampling in audio, either, but there are plenty who'll tell you it sounds better than 16/44.
I wonder
if Eric is going to perform data compression within the array to
lower the communications bandwidth?
No, he's cleverer than that. He's going to 'develop' the image right there in the sensor.
Replacing a simple count with
information that includes photon location will be a real data hog.
Yup, I think you need data reduction in or close to the sensor.
If you aren't thinking of outperforming current sensors then you only
need the same photoelectron density, about 800 e- in a 0.9μm
pixel, and just 10 bit digitisation. The beneficial effects of high
pixel density make it 'worth the trouble' by itself. In truth, it's
not necessarily that much trouble, either, but it does require more
processor power and memory.
I meant that I was thinking of how to outperform a camera which is
already far better than current ones. To really make a Gigapixel
camera worthwhile I would like to have high quality pixels which
means getting the shot noise down.
If you have lots of pixels, they don't need to be high quality (not in the sense you mean, they need low read noise). Shot noise is a given with any particular QE and sensitivity. As I keep on pointing out, it's in the image, not the sensor. QE apart, there is no way of engineering around it, save longer exposures. And ISO 32 sensors would be ripped apart in today's market.
Then with new design lenses you
could significantly outperform the mere 4 foot by 6 foot at 250 DPI
image that a 2 micron pixel full frame camera would produce.
Yup. I've observed before, what Nikon needs to do with the D3x is develop some 'super primes' - makes more sense than the lame MX rumour.
--
Bob

 
Full demosaicing with an abstraction of luminance becomes totally
unnecessary
once you get to a certain level of oversampling.

It is only desirable for historic sensors because of the coarse pixel
resolution.

Do you see any abstraction of luminance or chroma in slide film? No;
just three layers of color. It is not essential.
One possibility would be to set a square pixel size based on the desired pixel spacing then divide each of these pixels into R,G and B stripes. If you had a sensor with 0.5 by 1.5 micron sub-pixels (with 3 times as dense column as row spacing to maximize the readout speed) you could generate an image based on 1.5 micron square RGB pixels.
 

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